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Illegal Machine Guns from parts kits
leeblackman
Member Posts: 5,303 ✭✭
I keep seeing all these full auto parts kits and partial recievers. It looks so easy, just any "run-of-the-mill" garage or basement gunsmith could put one together. I wonder how many people are assembling illegal machineguns from them. I bet the numbers are growing. I wonder if we'll start seeing new laws being made because of this.
If I'm wrong please correct me, I won't be offended.
The sound of a 12 gauge pump clears a house fatser than Rosie O eats a Big Mac !
If I'm wrong please correct me, I won't be offended.
The sound of a 12 gauge pump clears a house fatser than Rosie O eats a Big Mac !
Comments
If I'm wrong please correct me, I won't be offended.
The sound of a 12 gauge pump clears a house fatser than Rosie O eats a Big Mac !
I would venture to say that there are several million of various machine guns out there that no one knows about.
In some instances all that is needed is a drop in auto sear and a few parts to assemble a working unit for certain factory assembled guns instead of milling,machining and welding that most of the kits require.
From what i hear the M-1 to M-2 carbine [along with the AR-15]is the easiest because there is no machining work-just assemble the M-2 parts to your M-1 and there you go.
I personally believe that one good well placed shot is worth the best MG. Mg's are a waste of ammo because most rounds run amuck
JMHO!
But let me remind you; if you do the above, you stand the risk of spending several years as a guest of the government, be $20,000 lighter, and never be able to legally own a firearm again.
Making guns operate full auto is not hard for the determined, but it ain't worth it. If you want to own a machinegun, do it legally. That ain't hard either, and it's a lot more fun.
and fit it into a suitcase.
v35? We make this public because this is a police state and we want you to be able to earn that $$$$$ rewards for Justice money by snitching at us... we later can split the money when we come out....
HEHEHE....
JD
400 million cows can't be wrong ( EAT GRASS !!! )
Sandman2234
Have Gun, will travel
As far as the parts kits are concerned, I recently asked a gunsmith who enjoys accurizing ARs why it wouldn't be a good business deal to start up a business assembling Krinkovs from the major parts kits, and he said the law says a person may only assemble one, for himself. If you assemble more than one, you become a manufacturer.
If you know how to turn any gun into full auto, you know a little more than I do on the subject. I hear there's a little more to making an M2 out of an M1 than just replacing a couple parts -- the stocks are slightly different, etc. But there's no question that not only are there parts kits on sale in little baggies by mail or at gun shows, but also there are receiverless guns being sold disassembled as "parts kits." Add a receiver, and assemble. There are also blueprints for the few little parts you need to manufacture for a given gun that can be purchased from places like Paladin Press. I think I've got a pamphlet around here somewhere that talks about making an AK a full auto weapon, and it has "cut-out" diagrams for milling the necessary few little parts.
It's no secret, so we're not giving away anything here. I do think it's an interesting question. Frankly, I would like to have some of these parts guns, like the Krinkov, that aren't widely available at dealers, and the only reasonably priced way to get them anyway is to buy the parts kit and assemble your own. The companies that put them together for you want a $1500 premium for the favor (or more). A Krinkov kit is abour $400. A Krinkov from Urban Armory is maybe $1700 to $2400, with a pinned folding stock in some cases!
The BATF considers a full auto receiver a machine gun all by itself. They also consider some parts kits machine guns. The distributor or mail order house normally knows this and is fairly scrupulous about not selling you a kit that needs NFA papers unless you and he satisfy the law. All I can say is, it's tough to buy certain parts kits if you're not a lawyer and a machinist, because there are times when I don't know which parts would cause trouble for me.
I think that I generally take the attitude that I trust the seller not to sell me anything illegally. They are the experts, right? But I don't flash around my stuff either, even though I have nothing NFA at present. People see my semi-auto AK and many are dumb enough to assume they've seen a man with a machine gun. I can do without that kind of hassle. Same goes for parts kits.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Edited by - offeror on 08/18/2002 00:45:47
AlleninAlaska
He who dares not offend cannot be honest.
-- Thomas Paine
However, if your talking about full auto parts that have been MODIFIED to fit a semi-auto receiver and function as a full auto weapon, then you are talking deep do-do. As in the case of an HK, possession of MODIFIED FA parts to function as a full auto weapon on a semi-auto receiver ... even without possession of the weapon, will probably, by certain ATF employees opinion, constitute possession of a machine gun (unless the full auto trip lever and sear are removed)and this is in spite of the U.S. Constitution (2nd Amendment specifically) and its clear and unmistakably stated rights for the citizens of this country (USA) to obtain, make, or possess select fire military (militia) type firearms without taxation or interference from any Federal (or State) Government employees - Select Fire conversion should only be completed after compliance with applicable inferior Federal and/or State firearms laws in order to avoid possible prosecution for violations of said inferior laws - albeit they are unconstitutional.
======================================================
Just because your paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get you!kimberkid@gunbroker.zzn.com
? otherwise, you'll find an excuse.
Do you have to register it with the BATF as a new MG?
Is it too unsafe to fire and just get it fixed? has anyone purposely NOT fixed a suddenly-bursting-previously-semi-auto? how long did it last?
seems like it would scare the bejeezus out of me. hasn't happened yet. the devil in me would want to play with it awhile, but the father in me wouldn't want anything bad to happen to my son's father (me).
C-
___________________________
God, Guts, and Guns: keeping America Strong for 200 years.
(sig about Clinton's talk show changed, though I thought it was pretty creative without overt vulgarity)
Do you have to register it with the BATF as a new MG?
Is it too unsafe to fire and just get it fixed? has anyone purposely NOT fixed a suddenly-bursting-previously-semi-auto? how long did it last?
seems like it would scare the bejeezus out of me. hasn't happened yet. the devil in me would want to play with it awhile, but the father in me wouldn't want anything bad to happen to my son's father (me).
C-
___________________________
God, Guts, and Guns: keeping America Strong for 200 years.
(sig about Clinton's talk show changed, though I thought it was pretty creative without overt vulgarity)
On the other hand, I would say it's clear none of us who has posted so far has the bottom line on this -- we have this general sense of what would be troublesome. Somebody asked if it's likely there are a lot of kits out there that nobody knows about. I tend to say yes, first because kits aren't being registered as guns are. And second, a little bag of parts can have just about anything in it unless every one is scrutinized thoroughly. And a lot of that import stuff may or may not contain precisely what is advertised. Would I like to have a parts kit against the eventuality of civil strife where 3-round bursts would come in handy against men running between cover -- yup. Am I willing to risk prison. Absolutely not. Would I fix a gun right away that started bursting -- depends on whether it was uncontrollable and unreliable, I guess. I might be tempted to schedule the repair later rather than sooner.... There is nothing illegal about a broken or worn out gun, any more than there is anything illegal about a Hellfire doo-dad. Just don't go milling or cutting any parts in your shop, Mr. Weaver.....
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
I can only guess that we are expected to buy the parts kit, get a receiver from another source, and then be certain to build a gun that only fires semi-auto. Strange, but plausible.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Personally, I would have any such firearm repaired immediately if for no other reason but safety. Can you imagine the liabilities that would be on your head if that gun accidentally hurt someone and it was brought out in court that you knew it was so worn that it periodically went full auto?
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
and our ideology contained in the constitution.
I'm interested in buying and keeping various select fire parts kits
(and I believe I have that right), in the event that just such a thing
happens.
www.waveformwear.com
The new wave in free expression.
One is to get the parts kits within the law, acquiring any NFA licensing, stamps, etc. that are necessary to own the kits and/or the weapons.
The other is to buy the diagrams and the necessary machine equipment to build the parts, but don't build them until the government has broken down beyond the point at which anyone but the enemy will mind your making the parts without a license(!).
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
www.waveformwear.com
The new wave in free expression.
Edited by - thesoundguy1 on 08/19/2002 12:52:25
You didn't ask for an answer, you said you'd call the BATF on Monday, a smart idea. Anything you learn from them, feel free to post here as I'm sure it is of interest.
I did say, in an above post, "I can only guess that we are expected to buy the parts kit, get a receiver from another source, and then be certain to build a gun that only fires semi-auto. Strange, but plausible."
I assume that if Urban Armory may manufacture a gun and weld or pin it to make it legal, you can do the same. But I would never foist my assumption on you as anything more than a half-educated guess. Let us know what the Ft. Wayne BATF office had to say (I didn't even know we had a local BATF office).
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Edited by - offeror on 08/19/2002 13:19:00
I was talking about a sten kit and they said the short time that it would take to convert I would not be legal which I knew. I asked them if I were to buy the lower parts kit and weld it so it could not be made into a full auto and then buy the tube and weld it to that then finish the tube if that would work and they said they thought so. However, I told them if I decide to start this project I would like to bring a layout of my plans for them to see and they said they would be happy to look at them. I don't think a man could ask for any more than that. Remember they were talking about owning both sections of this gun at the same that would be breaking the law.Rosie
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
To err is human, to moo is bovine.