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500 Yard hits for the Average Shot - what setup?
offeror
Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
What setup will give an average shooter a reliable hit at 500 yards? I know it's not that simple, but that's why I put it this way. How would you put together a rig for an average, competent shooter, not a marksman, to look through the scope of a rifle (on a rest, like a bipod and sandbag at the rear), put the crosshairs on a target about the size of a watermelon at 500 yards, and get regular or at least reasonably frequent hits? Rifle, scope, round, and anything I've neglected to mention?
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Comments
I think you pretty much know what needs to be done from reading your posts. If the rifle will do it, any rifle will be fine. Scope of about 8-10 power as a minimum I would think, anything higher will be ok too. I would have them at the bench, no type of rest except sand bags or something similar. I never use anything under the rear of my guns, just under the forearm, its not that big a deal to have all those rests in place to me. It wont be hard with a scope and good rest, the rifle will practically do all the work. I think I could do it with a scope without a great rest, havent tried it lately, so I wouldnt worry too much, it could even be done from the prone position with no rest, with a scope, by a good shooter. If you have a say 18x scope that would be nice. Not sure exactly what you want to know. But I think you already know how to shoot this situation, go with your instincts of what you already know and what you know of the person shooting this range.
To elaborate on highball's comment: I think any of my rifles can do it, and some of them are as basic as you can get. The only one I cant do it with for sure is my .22 rimfire, tryed it before, its just too far, dont care what the packageing says.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Edited by - robsguns on 08/12/2002 21:47:35
Anything from a good 22-250 to a Fal to most bolt-actions are capable of such a 'feat'.
BUT FIRST AND FORMOST....the 'average shooter' has no knowledge how to set up a rifle to shoot 500 yards.The only way to get said knowledge is GO TO THE RANGE AND SHOOT !!! Not at 100 yards..but 2,3,4,5,6 hundred yards.You will learn more about shooting in one afternoon at 500 yards then a year at 100.
If your rifle will shoot 1 moa..that is 5 inches at 500 yds..double that ...say 10 inches..see your watermelon fit in that circle ?
You can do it with peep sights,with good eyes..otherwise,a 100 dollar Tasco will allow you to hit with a fair degree of regularity that big of a target.
IT DON'T take a 2000 dollar rifle to do what you want to do.
God,Guts,& GunsHave we lost all 3 ??
At that distance- temperature, humidity, wind and deviations with be a big factor . Get a ballistics calculator and you will see the affects.
I imagine some but not all semi-auto rifles are okay out to 500. The FAL has already been mentioned. Certainly the Garand and M1A are capable too, I'm sure. I imagine the .308 is a good caliber out to 500. And yes, I mean a kill type round, not just a paper-puncher.
I just thought it would be interesting and educational for me (no dumb questions) to hear how others think about this, given the previous "battle rifle" thread. Apparently shooting to point of aim is not considered a great feat at 500, either for a good rifle or a good rifle round.
Perhaps dialing in the scope would be the most important part of the process, assuming it had not been done at the factory. Maybe I should ask how accurate some of you have found scopes when bought on rifles pre-installed off the shelf. Do any manufacturers provide scoped rifles which are properly accurized for a given distance, or do all scopes need dialing in on first trip to the range? Or don't they sell scoped rifles much anymore in a package?
Maybe in order to make this more interesting I should have said 750 or 1000. Hello, Sharpe's!
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Edited by - offeror on 08/12/2002 22:02:22
All scoped rifles have to be dialed in as there are differences in point of impact due to the ammunition kind,make,and weight. Each lot of ammunition has a different POI, even with the commercial ones.
There are some scopes available with bullet drop compensating cams, in fact this is not a new technology...ergo the "leatherman" from the late 70's or 80's (not sure). I recall seing one not too long ago in the sportsmans guide for less that $300. I believe there are also more current models available nowadays. They are a great deal of help HOWEVER: It is always an advantage to be able to do it without such specialized equipment- just like the art of driving...the thrill is lost if you have an automatic transmission.
be safe
-smooth
Life is simple, living is what makes it complicated.
Edited by - operator on 08/12/2002 22:38:04
I didnt know you were killing, now you really opened a can of worms.
I dont usually recommend trying killing an animal at that distance. Farthest I've done it is 450 yds. and I think I should have had my butt kicked for attempting it, even though it was successful, and I did it without the benefit of a range finder, so it was even dumber of me. I learned a lot that day. It can be done, and well if you practice the shot.
What is the animal is what we need to know now before anything else can be said really. Deer on up or Deer on down? Guessing Deer on up. I'd say nothing less than the power of a .308 NATO round. Size of bullet and weight of bullet matters. Slow and heavy will work fine, combined with a large frontal area. Big holes are big holes, period. Flat shooting light bullets wont get it done EVERY time. I would not use my .308 for it. I would use my 30-06 for it, but not for anything bigger than a whitetail of 250 lbs. I dont have the hunting experience of game that big at distances that far to feel comfortable doing that with a 30-06. I'd use my .338 with the bullets in the 200gr. range for big stuff at that range, and feel good about doing it. I'd use my .458 WinMag with any bullet it shoots at that range, but regret shooting it after the first shot, not that the regret would be from anything other than a sore shoulder. I would not use the souped up flat shooting small calibers so popular right now, in any of the calibers smaller than a 308. bullet. The 300 UM etc. would be ok for the big stuff in my book. 300 Win. Mag. should be too. You see how I feel probably and where I'm going with this. I wouldnt shoot the 7mm's, the 6.5s, .280, .270, even in the Wby. offerings, at that distance at bigger than whitetail targets. It may not be a popular belief, but this is just me, without a lot of experience with big animals, and no experience with that distance shooting animals. Big bullets moving slow, or fast, for the long distances, thats my opinion, big and heavy.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Edited by - robsguns on 08/12/2002 23:09:12
A Savage 110,set in a Choate Varminter stock..308,with 180 gr.Gameking,.300 WinMag,7 MMRemMag,with a 160 gr bullet...on and on..
Spend money on a Leopold 4x14,or 6x20...get milldots later (120 bucks.Premiere Reticles)This is a cheap setup.
Have a garden varity 700 Rem ? Use it ! You will be amazed at what is possible with it !!.Invest in any of a half-dozen ballistic programs,as mentioned earlier...they will give you a very good reference point to start from,as to how many 'come-ups'....clicks up.
By the way...at 500 yards,2600 fps..the 180 gr.Gameking 308 will blow right thru a 1200 page phone book.....
Bipod (Harris) with a bag under butt,prone....but practice without bag also.That butt is the rifle butt...I don't need no bag under my butt,thank you,carry my own !!
God,Guts,& GunsHave we lost all 3 ??
Edited by - highball on 08/12/2002 23:10:50
Have you ever shot an animal that far away? Seriously. I need to do a lot of experimenting before feeling comfortable with shooting an animal and knowing if I'll be able to penetrate it well enough at that distance, the big animals I mean. Hitting the animal is hard enough, with wind drift and all with small light bullets, or the big heavy bullets, but I dont want to find my bullet has failed to penetrate after makeing the shot. I know you said the .308 180 gr. went through the book, but what about an animal? I know what my rounds will do on newpaper too, and I can compare them against each other that way, but I dont know what they do on animals until I've shot them into animals. I'd like to hear from anyone that has shot big animals at long distances, because I dont recall ever talking to anyone that has actually. Its all been paper. This isnt even something the gun writers talk much about, guess they all figure its unethical, I sort of do, but only because I know my limits. If I could do it you can bet I would, but I still dont know about the bullet that far away, and what it will do on the animal.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
This is truly a fascinating subject..and held much in mystery by most folks.
I took a dad and his son to the range a couple years ago...neither had ever shot over 100 yds,by their telling.They both ,from prone,using my .308,shot 5 shot groups running 6-8 inches at 500 yards.Talk about big eyes !!!
I shot 1 deer at 600 yards with a .243 100 gr.Nosler..the bullet broke the right front leg,and left rear leg.The deer went down until I got there and finished a messy job.I was a lot younger and dumber then.Today there is the equiptment to do the job..look up Kenny Jarret.I no longer shoot enough to feel comfortable shooting at game animals at extended ranges.
The Pennsalvania boys still shoot deer at 1000 yards,last I heard.
God,Guts,& GunsHave we lost all 3 ??
Edited by - highball on 08/12/2002 23:27:48
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Rifles capable of shooting a prarie dog at 1500 yards are being made...in spite of doubting Thomas's.....
Man name of Bower,out Colorada way,came over here a few years ago,Gave a seminar on Contender's...I saw several 3 shot groups at 500 yards that went under 2.5 inches....some in 20 mile an hour winds...Don called out the corrections,watching thru a spotting scope.The man is a genius at wind.
Don't flame me,boys..I don't give a rats *** if you believe it or not.I ain't got time to lie about it.
God,Guts,& GunsHave we lost all 3 ??
Edited by - highball on 08/13/2002 00:02:19
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Also...there is a sorta trick to it...Shooting at 14 0r 18 inch steel plates...you can't pick a place to hit,exactly..hold and shoot,the group builds from the first shot.
About 15 guys took the course...EVERY MAN was able to hit the plates nearly every shot,by the second day.Very few shots were dropped,after Don worked his magic on come-ups and wind.
God,Guts,& GunsHave we lost all 3 ??
i have made some long shots in my younger years but now i find it a lot more challenging to sneak up on a deer or antelope on the open prairie and not taking a shot over one hundred yds or so....the smallest rifle i use now is a 270 win or up to 300 win mag but i have killed alot of deer with a 243 also.
doc
I dont give my guns without somebody getting hurt!
so will this set-up
Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis
God,Guts,& GunsHave we lost all 3 ??
i had no intentions of shooting either one just having some fun they where way to small to shoot.
doc
I dont give my guns without somebody getting hurt!
i had no intentions of shooting either one just having some fun they were way to small to shoot.
doc
I dont give my guns without somebody getting hurt!
Edited by - cowdoc on 08/13/2002 00:44:54
God,Guts,& GunsHave we lost all 3 ??
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
"A wise man is a man that realizes just how little he knows"
I have to wonder about this modern crop of shooters. Unless you had a wicked wind, fog or mirage from hell, how cpuld you miss a watermelon at 500 yards particularly if you have quote: the scope of a rifle (on a rest, like a bipod and sandbag at the rear),
granted, I've had days when I couldn't hit a barn at 500 yards but those were in my ill-spent youth when I ran around with guys like Jack Daniels
But with a known distance, scope, sandbags - (and a rifle capable of reasonably repeatable accuracy [and 500 yards ]) how do you not hit a target the size of a watermelon 9 out of 10 times?
Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis
Edited by - shootist3006 on 08/13/2002 17:33:10