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explain this to me, what does Christmas mean to yo
1911a1-fan
Member Posts: 51,193 ✭✭
i often have found it confusing
Christmas is celebrated by many as the recognition of the birth of Christ, correct?
then what is the connection with traditional decorations, and Santa clause to christians?
my point is i see many angry posters here claiming it is about Jesus, but they still decorate their house in pagan fashion, and lie to their children about Santa clause, exchange gifts etc., i truly believe the birth of Christ was never meant to be celebrated in this fashion, and find it hypocritical for those that do in the name of Jesus
and before i get flammed for asking just look at christmas sales, it is not all non Christians making up billions in sales
Christmas is celebrated by many as the recognition of the birth of Christ, correct?
then what is the connection with traditional decorations, and Santa clause to christians?
my point is i see many angry posters here claiming it is about Jesus, but they still decorate their house in pagan fashion, and lie to their children about Santa clause, exchange gifts etc., i truly believe the birth of Christ was never meant to be celebrated in this fashion, and find it hypocritical for those that do in the name of Jesus
and before i get flammed for asking just look at christmas sales, it is not all non Christians making up billions in sales
Comments
It shouldn't hinge on how much "stuff" you give, or receive..
To me, it's more of a Religion oriented holiday.Not a commerce related holiday.
It shouldn't hinge on how much "stuff" you give, or receive..
does that mean your house is bare, and no gifts exchanged, and no santa for the kids?
A. Roman pagans first introduced the holiday of Saturnalia, a week long period of lawlessness celebrated between December 17-25. During this period, Roman courts were closed, and Roman law dictated that no one could be punished for damaging property or injuring people during the weeklong celebration. The festival began when Roman authorities chose "an enemy of the Roman people" to represent the "Lord of Misrule." Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival's conclusion, December 25th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman.
B. The ancient Greek writer poet and historian Lucian (in his dialogue entitled Saturnalia) describes the festival's observance in his time. In addition to human sacrifice, he mentions these customs: widespread intoxication; going from house to house while singing naked; rape and other sexual license; and consuming human-shaped biscuits (still produced in some English and most German bakeries during the Christmas season).
C. In the 4th century CE, Christianity imported the Saturnalia festival hoping to take the pagan masses in with it. Christian leaders succeeded in converting to Christianity large numbers of pagans by promising them that they could continue to celebrate the Saturnalia as Christians.[2]
D. The problem was that there was nothing intrinsically Christian about Saturnalia. To remedy this, these Christian leaders named Saturnalia's concluding day, December 25th, to be Jesus' birthday.
E. Christians had little success, however, refining the practices of Saturnalia. As Stephen Nissenbaum, professor history at the University of Massachussetts, Amherst, writes, "In return for ensuring massive observance of the anniversary of the Savior's birth by assigning it to this resonant date, the Church for its part tacitly agreed to allow the holiday to be celebrated more or less the way it had always been." The earliest Christmas holidays were celebrated by drinking, sexual indulgence, singing naked in the streets (a precursor of modern caroling), etc.
F. The Reverend Increase Mather of Boston observed in 1687 that "the early Christians who first observed the Nativity on December 25 did not do so thinking that Christ was born in that Month, but because the Heathens' Saturnalia was at that time kept in Rome, and they were willing to have those Pagan Holidays metamorphosed into Christian ones."[3] Because of its known pagan origin, Christmas was banned by the Puritans and its observance was illegal in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681.[4] However, Christmas was and still is celebrated by most Christians.
G. Some of the most depraved customs of the Saturnalia carnival were intentionally revived by the Catholic Church in 1466 when Pope Paul II, for the amusement of his Roman citizens, forced Jews to race naked through the streets of the city. An eyewitness account reports, "Before they were to run, the Jews were richly fed, so as to make the race more difficult for them and at the same time more amusing for spectators. They ran. amid Rome's taunting shrieks and peals of laughter, while the Holy Father stood upon a richly ornamented balcony and laughed heartily."[5]
H. As part of the Saturnalia carnival throughout the 18th and 19th centuries CE, rabbis of the ghetto in Rome were forced to wear clownish outfits and march through the city streets to the jeers of the crowd, pelted by a variety of missiles. When the Jewish community of Rome sent a petition in1836 to Pope Gregory XVI begging him to stop the annual Saturnalia abuse of the Jewish community, he responded, "It is not opportune to make any innovation."[6] On December 25, 1881, Christian leaders whipped the Polish masses into Antisemitic frenzies that led to riots across the country. In Warsaw 12 Jews were brutally murdered, huge numbers maimed, and many Jewish women were raped. Two million rubles worth of property was destroyed.
we are to celebrate his resurection from the dead and for paying the price for our sins so we may be reunited with GOD.
christmas was suppose to be a way of recognizing what GOD gave to us in the form of a gift, his son. the season became a season of mimicking what God did for us. by giving a gift to loved ones, we are suppose to be acting like God in our charity towards others and people are suppose look at us with some kind of respect. the result is everyone tries to out-do the other.
it backfired.
people dont even recognize GOD at all during x-mas. its become strictly a season of gift giving with no Godlike intentions or recognition.
and when we do recognize the birth, all its suppose to do is give us some warm and fuzzy feeling. thats NOT what its suppose to do.
case in point...its CHRISTS birthday. tell me, how many birthdays have you been to in your lifetime where the honored person doesnt get anything at the party? instead, everyone at the party gets something except the birthday person?
as a parent, try to imagine the chaos your kids would throw if you built up some big gala occasion for them, and didnt givethem a red cent.
yet, every year, we as a nation or we as families leave CHRIST OUT OF THE DAY.
so, in closing, let me challenge every one of you....
WHAT HAVE YOU GIVEN CHRIST FOR HIS BIRTHDAY? try starting with giving your life to him, the way he ASKED YOU TO. thats all CHRIST WANTS FOR HIS BIRTHDAY.
he wants you to love him and let him be your SAVIOR.[;)]
Former Member U.S. Navy Shooting Team
Former NSSA All American
Navy Distinguished Pistol Shot
MO, CT, VA.
A. Christmas Trees
Just as early Christians recruited Roman pagans by associating Christmas with the Saturnalia, so too worshippers of the Asheira cult and its offshoots were recruited by the Church sanctioning "Christmas Trees".[7] Pagans had long worshipped trees in the forest, or brought them into their homes and decorated them, and this observance was adopted and painted with a Christian veneer by the Church.
B. Mistletoe
Norse mythology recounts how the god Balder was killed using a mistletoe arrow by his rival god Hoder while fighting for the female Nanna. Druid rituals use mistletoe to poison their human sacrificial victim.[8] The Christian custom of "kissing under the mistletoe" is a later synthesis of the sexual license of Saturnalia with the Druidic sacrificial cult.[9]
C. Christmas Presents
In pre-Christian Rome, the emperors compelled their most despised citizens to bring offerings and gifts during the Saturnalia (in December) and Kalends (in January). Later, this ritual expanded to include gift-giving among the general populace. The Catholic Church gave this custom a Christian flavor by re-rooting it in the supposed gift-giving of Saint Nicholas (see below).[10]
D. Santa Claus
a. Nicholas was born in Parara, Turkey in 270 CE and later became Bishop of Myra. He died in 345 CE on December 6th. He was only named a saint in the 19th century.
b. Nicholas was among the most senior bishops who convened the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE and created the New testament. The text they produced portrayed Jews as "the children of the devil"[11] who sentenced Jesus to death.
c. In 1087, a group of sailors who idolized Nicholas moved his bones from Turkey to a sanctuary in Bari, Italy. There Nicholas supplanted a female boon-giving deity called The Grandmother, or Pasqua Epiphania, who used to fill the children's stockings with her gifts. The Grandmother was ousted from her shrine at Bari, which became the center of the Nicholas cult. Members of this group gave each other gifts during a pageant they conducted annually on the anniversary of Nicholas' death, December 6.
d. The Nicholas cult spread north until it was adopted by German and Celtic pagans. These groups worshipped a pantheon led by Woden -their chief god and the father of Thor, Balder, and Tiw. Woden had a long, white beard and rode a horse through the heavens one evening each Autumn. When Nicholas merged with Woden, he shed his Mediterranean appearance, grew a beard, mounted a flying horse, rescheduled his flight for December, and donned heavy winter clothing.
e. In a bid for pagan adherents in Northern Europe, the Catholic Church adopted the Nicholas cult and taught that he did (and they should) distribute gifts on December 25th instead of December 6th.
f. In 1809, the novelist Washington Irving (most famous his The Legend of Sleepy Hollow and Rip Van Winkle) wrote a satire of Dutch culture entitled Knickerbocker History. The satire refers several times to the white bearded, flying-horse riding Saint Nicholas using his Dutch name, Santa Claus.
g. Dr. Clement Moore, a professor at Union Seminary, read Knickerbocker History, and in 1822 he published a poem based on the character Santa Claus: "Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the house, not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse. The stockings were hung by the chimney with care, in the hope that Saint Nicholas soon would be there." Moore innovated by portraying a Santa with eight reindeer who descended through chimneys.
h. The Bavarian illustrator Thomas Nast almost completed the modern picture of Santa Claus. From 1862 through 1886, based on Moore's poem, Nast drew more than 2,200 cartoon images of Santa for Harper's Weekly. Before Nast, Saint Nicholas had been pictured as everything from a stern looking bishop to a gnome-like figure in a frock. Nast also gave Santa a home at the North Pole, his workshop filled with elves, and his list of the good and bad children of the world. All Santa was missing was his red outfit.
i. In 1931, the Coca Cola Corporation contracted the Swedish commercial artist Haddon Sundblom to create a coke-drinking Santa. Sundblom modeled his Santa on his friend Lou Prentice, chosen for his cheerful, chubby face. The corporation insisted that Santa's fur-trimmed suit be bright, Coca Cola red. And Santa was born - a blend of Christian crusader, pagan god, and commercial idol.
after the birth of christ and with the aadvent of the Roman Catholic Church, you find that church doing their damndest to get people to quit celebrating pagan occasions. since they couldn't get them to simply stop, they made up their own excuse for a holiday, and "traditions" to go with it, and put them on the same days as pagan celebrations and festivities. if you can't get them to stop, make them to do something else. obviously there are some pagan traditions that have carried over.
note, pagans had celebrations and festivities, they were replaced with christian holidays.
I would say the culprit isn't Jesus Himself or the christian faith itself, but instead the Roman Catholic Church.
one fine example I found the other day is Valentine's Day. when reading up on that roman cave they found where Remus and Romulus were supposedly suckled by a she-wolf, and the facts and myths surrounding the pagan celebration of Lupercalia in that cave, I found that the whole thing was replaced with the St. Valentine's Day holiday. yet, the MONTH of February is named after the bloody strips of goat hide used to whip women to make then fertile, called a februa! and there was no St. valentine, there are about 4 different versions of how they are supposed to come up with that fictitious saint. it was all a lie.
here's the article I found. it's pretty... uuhh.. "gay", but somewhat accurate and interesting nonetheless.
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Whip My Roman Sex Gods
You want the true Valentine's Day? Forget roses and candy, sweetheart, and kneel before the Lupercalia
Hot pagan sex and lustful gods and ancient wolf goddesses and potential marriage and more sex and more than a little crazed giddy divine animal blood sacrifice.
All followed by some nice light whippings administered by nearly naked grinning boy-men, casual flagellations by goat-skin, some joyful thrashing in the name of fertility and purity and, you know, sex. Ahh, Valentine's Day.
The original, that is. Before it was called Valentine's Day, back when it was called Lupercalia, a big Roman festival in honor of the fertility god Lupercus, before the ever-scowlin' church got a hold of this ancient and rather odd and blood-pumped Roman lust-fest, co-opted it and de-sexed it stripped it of its more salacious and admittedly libertine joys, as the church is so tragically wont to do.
Because as everyone knows, the church is nothing if not all about rigid joyless dogma and romantic abstinence and mountains of little chalky candy hearts. Mmm, sanctimoniousness.
Tried to convert it into a mildly consecrated (read: bland, not naked) day, the church did, "Christianize" that naughty pagan fest, and failing that because no way are you gonna trump ancient sex and lust with uptight chastity and faux-purity, they tossed in Saint Valentine to the mix, invented some nice legend, tried to turn this most funky of pagan holidays into an homage to saccharine romantic love and cherry nougat chocolates and Hallmark schmalz. Did they succeed? Sort of.
Basically, it went something like this: In ancient Rome, on the 15th of February, in an altar called the Luperci sacred to the god Lupercus, in a cave in which the she-wolf goddess nursed founding twins Romulus and Remus, Luperci priests gathered and sacrificed goats and young dogs, the former for strength, the latter for purification and in honor of their strong sexual instinct and because it was a fertility diety and this is just what you did if you were a happy pagan citizen a couple thousand years ago.
Some hunky boys of noble birth were then led to the shrine, where the priests would dab their foreheads with a sword dipped in the animal blood, after which our baffled youths were apparently obliged to break out into a shout of purifying laughter because that's what the rite called for and no one is quite sure why and, well, wouldn't you?
Then, a feast. Meat. Wine galore. Followed by the slicing of goat skins into pieces, some of which the priests cut into strips and dipped in the blood and then handed to the boys, who would take off and run through the streets, gently touching or lashing crops and bystanders -- especially women -- with the skins along the way to inspire fertility and harvest and because hey, half-naked laughing boys wielding bloody goat skins ,- what's not to love?
Actually, the women eagerly stepped forward to be so stroked, believing that such a blessing rendered them fertile (even if they were sterile), and procured them ease in childbearing, and made them look all gothy and cool and sexy.
"This act of running about with thongs of goat-skin was a symbolic purification of land and men," says one rather dry, scholarly website on the topic. "For the words by which this act is designated are februare and lustrare, and the goat-skin itself was called februum, the month in which it occurred Februarius, and the god himself Februus." So, you know, there you go. February. Purity and lust and sex and gods. Really, what else do you need?
Then came the sex lottery. Oh yes. Say it like you mean it. Pretty much only have to say the words, "sex lottery," and already you're like, damn, count me in, sure beats dinner and a movie.
And all the young lasses in the city would place their names in a large urn, and the city's eligible bachelors would choose a name out of the urn and become paired for the year with his chosen woman, oftening resulting in marriage. You know, sort of like the Mormons. Only with actual sex. And booze. And without the creepy undergarments.
But if there's one thing the sexless butt-clenched church really hates, it's sex lotteries. And free thinking. And good porn. Condoms. Margarita enemas. Literature. But especially sex lotteries. Go figure.
So along comes Pope Gelasius around 486 A.D. and declares, let's say, oh, February 14 to be dedicated to a saint, and we'll call him Saint Valentine, who might or might not be an actual martyr whose true history is murky at best, given how church records show at least four martyrs with the name Valentinus, whoops, oh well.
And of course, they outlawed the yummy sex lotto, the church did, changed the names in the urn from lusty single women to the names of pious saints to be emulated, whee what fun, and jammed their new holiday right up against the February 15 date of Lupercalia.
Which also had the added bonus of stomping all over the normal February 14 day of honoring Juno (Roman Goddess-queen of women and marriage), and focused it all on the makeshift Valentine, and voila, here we are: Hallmark cards and candy hearts and poisoned Ecuadorian rose workers. In a nutshell.
But of course, the modern V-Day isn't all bad. And this is not to say we should necessarily return to the old ways, a little bloodletting and lashing and animal sacrifice and random sex lotteries. Except for maybe the Mormons.
Because everyone knowns that right under the cheap veneer of Valentine's Day mega-marketing and hollow churchly romance is yet another delicious excuse to have more sex and indulge in fleshly pleasures and lick chocolate syrup off your lover's tailbone. Hopefully.
In other words, the church both succeeded in their hostile takeover, and failed miserably. Sure Valentine's Day is all romance and sentiment and Malaysian-made stuffed teddy bears on the outside, but it's all raw oysters and sly spankings and salacious romps and whipped-creamed nipples and soft divine bedroom cooing, inside.
Which is exactly as it should be. Which is exactly how we still, without even realizing it, manage to recall our delicious Lupercalia, take a big lick of ye olde pagan ways, regardless of everpresent churchly frowning and 'Be Mine' twittering and chubby Cupid chinz. Deep earthly sex and hoary gods and fertile lust and voluminous feasts of meat and wine? You're soaking in it.
Because it's always good to know where your manufactured holidays really come from. Always healthy to pay homage to the true origins, realize how much calculated deceit has happened along the way. Just like Christmas and Easter and Halloween and any major holiday worth mentioning that the church gutted and renamed and from whose moist tremulous soul they tried to suck the pithy throbbing joy, ya gotta give props to the old gods, throw a karmic kiss to Lupercus and Juno and the she-wolf. Word.
So. Buy those giant red balloons from Safeway. Nab that $29 heart-shaped diamelle necklace from the Shane Company. But don't forget to acknowledge that deep-down, gnawing, sly urge you're doubtlessly harboring to rush out into the streets and wait for the laughing naked boys and get yourself gently lashed with bloody goat skins and then go have sex. Just like the pagan lust-monkey you so wish to be. You go, Lupercus.
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so, where does Santa Claus come in? last year I was going to do a writeup on how Saturnalia became transmogrified into modern day Christmas and the abhorrent perniciousness of christians, but I wound up spending 5+ hours on piecing it all together, not even halfway done, and it was just too damn much so I trashed it all. but what I found was, the adaptation to the holiday of the peoples up north, like from the Netherlands, was most popular and came to replace the ho-hum "birth of christ" holiday (with the Arabic three wise men) that replaced Saturnalia everywhere else.
it's all a lie! return to your Pagan roots!
its not even a valid religious holiday. nowhere in the bible does it say we are suppose to celebrate the birth of christ. the importance of his birth is is shadowed by what his coming was really for.
we are to celebrate his resurection from the dead and for paying the price for our sins so we may be reunited with GOD.
christmas was suppose to be a way of recognizing what GOD gave to us in the form of a gift, his son. the season became a season of mimicking what God did for us. by giving a gift to loved ones, we are suppose to be acting like God in our charity towards others and people are suppose look at us with some kind of respect. ...
right... the purpose of which is to replace the original Pagan celebrations. otherwise Christmas wouldn't even exist. you wouldn't have any holiday celebrating "the birth of christ". how graceful and giving does The Church look now? you are celebrating a fabricated lie. the whole thing is a lie, to eradicate previous traditions. for the purpose of power to the Roman Catholic Church.
how does buying my wife a diamond, and my kid a Nintendo celebrate Jesus Christ?
if it was truly celebrated as intended churches would be open Christmas day {some are, most are not}, there would be no Christmas tree, yule log those are pagan rituals, there would be no black Friday, there would be no record to break in Christmas sales each year' my point is once again look at several post here of members complaining "IT'S A CELEBRATION OF CHRIST" but yet themselves celebrate it in a sinful manner, it is having your cake, and eating it too
I guess we don't understand the question.
You didn't understand something? That can't be possible.[;)]
So the Cristmas celebration means nothing more to me than what it has become.
If people think it is about Christs birth tthen I am fine with that and people think it is about shopping and eating , Thats good too.
I like Christmas celebration because I see people I only see once a year. But it isn't about Christs BD for me. That would be celebrated in the spring.
family = christmas party....& happy days [^]
oh yeh...& since he has his initials on the date, that makes one guy important too !! BC/AD [;)]
it means ..& since i dont see much of my real buds
family = christmas party....& happy days [^]
LOL Thats what I tried to say but you said it better[^]
ps. your religion, your choice. i believe in SANTA
We don't tell our little ones that there is a Santa Claus. I personally don't put up decorations but most Christians do. It seems that many people like the tradition of the pretty lights and festive decorations.
I believe that a thousand years ago, there was a very clever PR campaign to bring the Pagans into the fold of the Christian religion, by incorporating regional Pagan traditions.
Christmas to me is a day of giving, sharing, and enjoying the company of family and friends, and to remember the birth of Christ our Saviour. A Christmas Tree and other decorations are a part of it, whether it meets very old or ancient standards or not, it is still one of America's great holidays.
Thank you, kimi - I couldn't have said it better, myself.
Well...maybe...
MERRY CHRISTMAS !!
Doug
quote:Originally posted by fishkiller41
To me, it's more of a Religion oriented holiday.Not a commerce related holiday.
It shouldn't hinge on how much "stuff" you give, or receive..
does that mean your house is bare, and no gifts exchanged, and no santa for the kids?
No, yet more emphasis is put on the religious aspect, than giving gifts.
quote:Originally posted by kimi
Christmas to me is a day of giving, sharing, and enjoying the company of family and friends, and to remember the birth of Christ our Saviour. A Christmas Tree and other decorations are a part of it, whether it meets very old or ancient standards or not, it is still one of America's great holidays.
Thank you, kimi - I couldn't have said it better, myself.
Well...maybe...
MERRY CHRISTMAS !!
Doug
And, a hearty MERRY CHRISTMAS to you and your loved ones, too, Doug Wilson! [:)]
Goodwill to Men"
And we set aside one day a year to remind us of this?
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Christmas to me is a day of giving, sharing, and enjoying the company of family and friends... +1
Christmas to me is a special time for family. Every year at Christmas we tie up Uncle Carl and stuff cashews into every orifice of his body. Carl is getting on now and complains more than he used to, but after we all open up presents and watch TV.
At his age you need to switch to walnuts.
Everyone knows that...
Even Christmas trees are not called that, they are 6ft pine, 7 ft douglas fur, etc. Some call them holiday trees, others family trees. They have taken the word Christmas off of most everything. Even the cards and more generic.
There are not any Christmas sales. Read what they say! The word Christmas is rarely found in ads or stores anymore. The next time you are in Wal-Mart, Target, Best Buy, etc. check for yourself. Thay have taken the word Christmas out of the holiday. Seasons Greetings, Happy Holidays and such!
Even Christmas trees are not called that, they are 6ft pine, 7 ft douglas fur, etc. Some call them holiday trees, others family trees. They have taken the word Christmas off of most everything. Even the cards and more generic.
You can still buy Christmas cards, but you might have to look a little longer than expected.
quote:Originally posted by kimi
Christmas to me is a day of giving, sharing, and enjoying the company of family and friends... +1
You got a big part of it rightdolfan! [;)]
who needs devine help with the Govt holding your hands and careing for you in time of need. However dont bring this type of talk up to us that have survived the big depression and WW 2. Too many of you have been media brainwashed and coddled to think straight. By now if you dont understand Christmas it is much too late for you. But dont try to spoil it for me and mine.
Seems funny that so many like to "knock" Christmas lately. Seems to be the "in thing" for the "IN crowd." Same as God and moral values. After all,
who needs devine help with the Govt holding your hands and careing for you in time of need. However dont bring this type of talk up to us that have survived the big depression and WW 2. Too many of you have been media brainwashed and coddled to think straight. By now if you dont understand Christmas it is much too late for you. But dont try to spoil it for me and mine.
Good post joeaf1911a1. Enjoy the Christmas Holidays, and have a very MERRY CHRISTMAS!