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Muzzle loaders and 4473 requirements

Ronald J. SnowRonald J. Snow Member Posts: 1,346 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited April 2011 in General Discussion
A few days ago aglore asked "Why is a black powder firearm going through a FFL dealer?".

Woodsrunner replied that ATF required a 4473 on inline muzzleloaders that use a 209 shotshell primer for ignition.

I did not agree with this statement and have done a bit of research. I called Owen at The Firearms Technology Branch of BATF (202-927-7910) and found him to be a fellow shooter and very informative.

The Savage 110ML was presented to BATF for classification and it was classified as a modern firearm due to the fact that it was built on a Savage 110 action. This classification was made pursuant to GCA 1968, title 1, chapter 44 Firearms, 921.Definitions (a) 16 "antique firearm" (page 6 of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2000). In part: "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or a muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt breechblock or any combination thereof".

Savage has since introduced their 110MLII that is classified as a muzzle loader and does not require form 4473. However, the TC Encore, the H&R Huntsman, the Mossberg SSi and any other firearm that will accept an accessory barrel requires the 4473 form.

The fact that a muzzle loading firearm uses the 209 primer is not the reason for the 4473 requirement and is not a new requirement; it has been with us since the GCA 1968 was introduced.

Hope this information will be of use to someone.
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    allen griggsallen griggs Member Posts: 35,260 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The ATF came out with a ruling about 5 years ago that all muzzleloaders that used shotgun primers were considered modern firearms. I saw this ruling recently on another web site. But, later that year, congress overruled them to make the law as you stated above.

    "Not as deep as a well, or as wide as a church door, but it is enough."
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    woodsrunnerwoodsrunner Member Posts: 5,378 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I stand corrected. Thank You. My information came to me prior to the introduction of the Savage. I knew there had been a challenge but was unaware of the outcome.

    Woods
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    JustCJustC Member Posts: 16,056 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The one exception is the T/C encore 209x50 or 209x45. It IS registered as a modern firearm and is required to be NICS'd due to the fact that even though it was purchased as a black powder gun, it can be readily changed into a rifle or pistol.

    A great rifle with a junk scope,....is junk.
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    wvfd174wvfd174 Member Posts: 16 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Realize this is an ancient thread, but, WAY back when H&R made the first Huntsman, the inside of the receiver where the barrel lug inserted, was narrower than the regular H&R shotgun receivers and therefore would not accept ANY rifle or shotgun barrels unless one used a milling machine and narrowed the barrel lug of the new barrel or hogged out the receiver recess. If memory serves me correctly, those were not treated as 4473/NICS guns. BUT, several years later, they were changed to the present design that WILL accept a rifle barrel. Are the earlier ones exempt, or did BATFE lump them all together as firearms?
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    mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,456 ******
    edited November -1
    This one was before I was even a member. I don't think that Mr. Snow has posted on the forums in at least two years, but I am sure that he is constantly monitoring his threads, even those nine years old, hoping for updates!
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    n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427 ✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by mark christian
    This one was before I was even a member. I don't think that Mr. Snow has posted on the forums in at least two years, but I am sure that he is constantly monitoring his threads, even those nine years old, hoping for updates!



    Hey Mark...Mr. Snow is deceased, if my memory serves me correctly.
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    mark christianmark christian Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 24,456 ******
    edited November -1
    I had no idea. He was always an excellent contributor in Ask The Experts and I apologize for my tongue-in-cheek-remark about his monitoring his old threads.
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    n/an/a Member Posts: 168,427 ✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by mark christian
    I had no idea. He was always an excellent contributor in Ask The Experts and I apologize for my tongue-in-cheek-remark about his monitoring his old threads.



    Yes, he was very knowledgeable.
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    KEVD18KEVD18 Member Posts: 15,037
    edited November -1
    necroposters deserve to be tarred and feathered.
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    victorj19victorj19 Member Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bought my Rem 700ML years ago and it went on a 4473. Looks like it didn't have to. I don't know it the CF rifle barrels are the same size and thread but a CF rifle bolt just don't fit in the receiver.
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    fishkiller41fishkiller41 Member Posts: 50,608
    edited November -1
    Sad to hear of his passing..He may very well be looking in on us though.At least I would hop one could access GB from the "great beyond"..
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    allen griggsallen griggs Member Posts: 35,260 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mr. Snow passed away a while back. He was a good forum member and a knowledgable gun guy, and I miss him.
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    guntech59guntech59 Member Posts: 23,187 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by mark christian
    I had no idea. He was always an excellent contributor in Ask The Experts and I apologize for my tongue-in-cheek-remark about his monitoring his old threads.


    One of his family members posted about his death on this or another forum I frequent. IIRC it about 2 years ago.

    RJ was very knowledgeable and had little patience for fools.
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    wvfd174wvfd174 Member Posts: 16 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well, please excuse my attempt to get a question answered that STILL is a viable issue, regardless of the fact that the OP is no longer, sadly, with us. I was doing a Google search on this subject in an attempt to find SOME info, and found this old thread. Flaming someone searching for info sure didn't accomplish a thing. Regardless of our own mortality, the BATFE is NOT, seemingly, subject to such problems. They still will make whatever decisions they want, regardless of whether it seems that common sense applies. The original early 1970's era Huntsman absolutely could not take a different barrel any more than a Remington 700 ML could take a regular bolt. Apologies to the deaprted Mr. Snow, but the issue is still out there, and aside from what the BATFE seems to decree, with no common sense answer or input.
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    wvfd174wvfd174 Member Posts: 16 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Per telephone call from Firearms Technology Branch this morning, the early, 1970-71 H&R Huntsman is NOT a firearm for 4473/NICS purposes as it cannot, without modification, take a centerfire barrel. Later models CAN take centerfire barrels. The only way to discern between them is to compare the width of the channel in the receiver where the barrel lug inserts. The narrow ones are not guns as the only barrel that fits is the muzzleloader. If the channel measures the same width as a regular H&R/New Englad Firearms Pardner, it IS a firearm.
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    idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    About 5 years ago. Hmmm.... That answers my question. I was wondering why I had to fill out a 4473 for a T/C Omega I bought from ECC's business.
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