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BATF standoff in Montana! Here we go again...

Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited September 2001 in General Discussion
This just in, courtesy of www.sierratimes.com :Agents with Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and the U.S.Customs Department continue to surround a home in Salem, Mo., south ofRolla. The standoff began at 2 p.m. Thursday when authorities attempted toexecute a search warrant and the resident refused to let them in.The ATF and U.S. Customs Service command post sits about a half mile awayfrom the home where the standoff is taking place. The suspect is believed tohave illegal weapons and has been holed up since 2 p.m. Thursday.Federal authorities served a warrant Thursday on the home of 43-year-oldJamie Schwartz for a methamphetamine lab and illegal weapons. When Schwartzrefused to surrender, the standoff began.The ATF has positioned numerous officers in camouflage in the woods trainedon the home. Negotiators are attempting to make contact with Schwartz. Thereare no children in the home. Federal authorities will not tell us how manypeople they believe are inside. They say they will wait Schwartz out."We're executing this warrant. We're going to stay here until we make a safeconclusion and an end of the whole operation," says Larry Scott, an ATFspokesman."I understand there's more than one person in the house and probably severalillegal weapons that could scatter through the woods, I guess," says MikeMrozowicz, one of Schwartz's neighbors.The ATF says Customs is here only as back up and support in this case. Sofar, no one has been evacuated because this is a rural area. One neighbor,who can see the Schwartz home from her home, says she is not taking anychances and will stay in a motel Friday night. The ATF says they areprepared to wait this out through the weekend._____________________________________________________________________________Please add to the post as you all get more info...
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Comments

  • badboybobbadboybob Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Our gestapo in action yet again. This is enough to gag a maggot.
    So many guns to buy. So little money.
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  • 4000fps4000fps Member Posts: 786 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Oh GEEEZZZZ another fire. God Bless em.
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  • M.OpaliskiM.Opaliski Member Posts: 244 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Are you folks insane ... did you skip this part of the story ...?"Federal authorities served a warrant Thursday on the home of 43-year-oldJamie Schwartz for a methamphetamine lab and illegal weapons. When Schwartzrefused to surrender, the standoff began."Are you suggesting that this individual be allowed to continue with the operation of the lab ... keep and possess the weapons?
    Support your RKBA ... MatthewNRA Life MemberTalk Radio Junkie opaliski@hotmail.com TheFirearmsEnthusiast
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  • zombiedawgzombiedawg Member Posts: 21 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Why is the ATF and US Customs involved in this kind of operation? Where is the local PD? The ATF has increasing been enlisting local law enforement to be involved as it downplays their role in these situations. Especially when something goes wrong.Are they more concerned about the meth or the guns? No matter the situation, it always seems that the person is supposedly armed to the teeth or they have a stockpile of weapons. What are his illegal weapons? Does he have a post ban banana clip, did he buy something questionable from a catalog or does have a bazooka? These kinds of things happen and this is how they justify their presence. Maybe he is a bad guy, but we all know how truthful the ATF is about these scenarios. It always is an illegal weapon or a stockpile of weapons. Once again they could have taken him anywhere. I don't know how populated of an area that he is in, but they always start like this. They never seem to wait for them to leave the house. Why is that? I guess the fire-OOPS I mean the tear gas canisters are next. I haven't heard much else about Santa Clarita. What is the real story on that incident? They usually get quiet when something screwy is going on.I am afraid that I would qualify for having a stockpile of arms.And I am sure I am not alone.
    RANGE ME[This message has been edited by zombiedawg (edited 09-08-2001).]
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  • timberbeasttimberbeast Member Posts: 1,738 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    While fully aware that the government has overstepped its bounds in many cases, I'd like to see any meth lab closed down. I realize at this point it is purely conjecture as to whether or not there is a methamphetamine lab there or not, as we are all innocent until proven guilty, but it seems that this particular citizen had the opportunity to surrender, and let the government attempt to prove his guilt, and chose not to do so. This is not comparable to a no-knock midnight raid or to Waco or Ruby Ridge.
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  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    One of the suspected crimes of David Koresh and his Waco gang, was that they were running a methamphetamine lab.Randy Weaver pinned down federal agents, after attacking the agents when they approached Randy Weaver while he sat in his truck. The point is, just because the government says they have good reason for going in there, I am not so quick to believe the government agents. If it was a methamphetamine warrant they were serving, why is the BATF involved?I would just assume to hear all of the facts after they play out, and not just assume what the government is saying is gospel.
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  • badboybobbadboybob Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Right Salzo. We can't believe half of what the gooberment says. The only problem is deciding which half to believe. Or is that 3/4 and 1/4?
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  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    BADBOYBOB- If you cant figure out what half(or any fraction) to believe, then its best not to believe any of it.
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  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    M.Opaliski;Insanity is allowing a fedgov to dictate what weapons are "legal" and those which are not.Insanity is buying whatever they say at face value.Insanity is defending their Gestapo tactics at every opportunity..as you seem to do on a regular basis. I would much rather have a crack house across the road from me,then a Batf Compound...because the crack house people normally will only murder people who don't pay for crack.Plus the fact that their murders arn't santioned by the fedgov..with the willing consent of most of the people in this country,who are too stupid to have ever read the Constitution...
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  • M.OpaliskiM.Opaliski Member Posts: 244 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Highball -If insanity is allowing a the Feds to dictate which weapons are legal and which are not we must all be insane. If you have the drive, seek to change those laws, or, simply live in insanity with me.I hardly think that I buy everything at face value, don't be insane. If it is insane to defend law enforcement tactics which I will do until such time that they are proven to be unfounded, you have labeled me correct, I am insane.Personally, I would rather have the BATF Compound across the street because generally law abiding folks go unbothered by Federal Law Enforcement agencies. If you build it, they will come ... the "building of it" can take many forms.Are you suggesting that I consent to the murdering of innocent individuals? If so, you are wrong.
    Support your RKBA ... MatthewNRA Life MemberTalk Radio Junkie opaliski@hotmail.com TheFirearmsEnthusiast
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  • LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    That dude's house will be in flames before the weekend's out.
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  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    David- You say that you would just assume the tactics of the governmnt as correct until the facts prove otherwise. You are certainly entitled to do that, no matter how ignorant that is.The government continually fabricate facts, especially when it comes to confiscating firearms.Once again, you should keep in mind that one of the charges of "fact" that the government used with respect to their waco invasion, was that Koresh ran a methamphetamine lab on the premises(which, by the way, was proven to be an absolutely ridiculous charge). They also said that he was a child molester, and that children were in danger. Even if it was true that Koresh was a molester of children(which has not even come close to being proven)that does not give the government the authority to go busting into his home. Child abuse is a state matter, not federal.Now I do not know if it is true that this guy had a meth lab or not, but I do nknow that the government uses that excuse, often incorrectly, to justify their illegal actions.You accept the governments side until the facts prove otherwise-I assume not believe the government until their side of the story is proven.
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  • HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    M.Opaliski; Your word,at the start...Insanity. I prefer words like ignorant,stupid,uninformed... 1. "If insanity is allowing."... We are indeed all insane to allow a central agency that much power over us...AND I mean that in the real sense of the word. 2.] Dynamic entries,no-knock smash and grabs should be repugnant to ANY thinking individual..who cares about freedom." unfounded"?? Where did you "find " that behaviour listed in the Constitution ? 3.]"generally law abiding folks go unbothered " OH,REALLY ??? Show me where the basis in the constitution is for the gun laws people are being killed over ARE ..in the Constitution..?? and does not the Constitution itself say that any law repugnant to the Constitution is NOT a law at all.? So those 'folks' being MURDERED are INDEED Constitutional 'folks' set upon by tryanny ? Looking from MY prospective..that the Second Amendment means exactly what is says...your defense of the tactics employed must mean that your consent is implied.
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  • steve45steve45 Member Posts: 2,940 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Salzo, saw a interview on TV with two pregnant girls and their parents. The girls ages around 14 or 15. Both claimed Koresh (aka Jesus) was the father. Koresh had the consent of the girls and their parents but if Texas has statutory rape laws then he would have violated them. I dont remember which agency was pushing to stop Koresh from molesting the girls (aid to dependant dhildren or child protective services?)
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  • 5db5db Member Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    First, I hope those in charge show much restraint and good judgement in MO. I feel a lot of the alphabet soup gov. folks have really outlived their usefulness. They often have bloated budgets and spend much time justifying their existence. IMHO, that's why you see them involved in these seemingly local crimes. The local Sheriff that is elected by the folks living in that county (thus has the respect of the majority of LAW abiding residence of said county) could enforce the law. As is often the case, one crime might break several laws being local, state or federal. I say let the Sheriff enforce the laws and let the prosecutors figure out what charges will be pressed. Besides, my family could use the Tax money saved by eliminating these federal agencies.BTW, An informant paid Mr. Weaver to saw two shotgun barrels to a length less than 18". That was the beginning of his problems. The Waco compound had an gov. agent inside as well. What he heard (Koresch claiming to be the messiah, predicting a violent confrontation with non-believers) and saw (Koresch fathering children from multiple wives (some quite young), "stock pilling" of firearms and ammo) was the basis for the gov. interest in "enforcing" the law. The claim of a meth lab allowed military assistance. Both of these situations were dark days for our Bill of Rights. I would like to see before my time, those responsible, that gave the go ahead, punished for their crimes like other notorious criminals have paid. (Not be allowed to run for Governor of Florida!)corrected MT to MO
    If you have one shot...Accu-Shot Website[This message has been edited by 5db (edited 09-08-2001).][This message has been edited by 5db (edited 09-08-2001).]
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  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Steve45- I do not know if he molested children, but it is certainly not proven that he did. I also saw interviews with people who claimed their children were molested by Koresh, but many facts came out about these intervies, including they were no longer members of the religion, had fallen out with Koresh, were paid handsomely for the interviews, and were more interested in going setting the dogs out on Koresh because they just did not like him.Even if the federal government felt he was molesting children that is not their concern-it is a local matter. And I seem to remember the locals investigating molestation and abuse charges, and were unable to come up with any proof.
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Okay, the ATF is there because of the guns. Where's the DEA for the drugs? Oh, wait. If he waits it out until April 15 do you think we'll get the IRS SWAT team out on this? If the house is surrounded and mail can't get delivered, will the postal inspectors get involved too? This goes to prove the "cowboy" mentality of these idiots. I have an idea of why this "cowboy" mentality exists. I talk to a lot of people that want to join the military because they want to work for the FBI or the DEA or the ATF someday because, for some reason, a FEDERAL LE job is SO much more glamorous and "above the law". I have a feeling that a lot of these ATF agents felt that way when they were younger and just never grew out of it. Couple that with encouragements from the previous administration to ACT like jack-booted thugs and you get what we have today. It's pathetic. I guarantee you that there will be a fire or an explosion and everything inside will be destroyed and everyone inside will be killed and the "official" word will be that a bad batch of Methamphetamine created it while it was cooking. If ATF agents are out there, where are the HAZMAT teams? You absolutely cannot go into a meth lab without proper breathers and hazmat equipment. If you simply walk into a meth lab and walk out, your lungs are permanantly affected due to the high doses of corrosive chemicals in the air. While working in a military LE capacity, we discovered meth labs out in remote training areas all the time. We were told that, if we ever entered a meth lab unknowingly in the line of duty, we would be eligible for disability from the government for the rest of our lives regardless of how we felt afterwards! Therefore, if there are only ATF agents and LEO's out there (quite close to Ft. Leonard Wood--home of the military police corps) without the assistance of HAZMAT teams, this is more than likely a bogus attempt to confiscate guns.
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  • BlueTicBlueTic Member Posts: 4,072
    edited November -1
    We could sit here and armchair quarteback till the cows come home. The truth of the matter is, WE WILL NEVER KNOW THE TRUTH ! The media will accept any story that the BATF gives them. How do we get independent observers into the action? And even if we could get somebody close, they would be lied to also...
    IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY RIGHTS - GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY
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  • steve45steve45 Member Posts: 2,940 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Salzo, the interview I saw the girls and their parents were active members of the Branch Davidians and lived in the compound. The girls and their parents thought Koresh was Jesus returned and all claimed to love him. For all I know they all died at Waco.
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  • Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Opaliski:You speak as though the BATF has never lied to the public before...They always manage to throw a spin on their raids. If they actually said "Hey, we don't think civilians should own firearms, so we're going to burn his house down and kill his family.", somebody might just stand up and say "ENOUGH!".
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  • 218Beekeep218Beekeep Member Posts: 3,033
    edited November -1
    This reminds me of a book I read in the 70s by Alvin Karpis,written after spending 33 1/2 years on alcatraz.He was a public enemy #1 and a member of the Karpis/Barker gang.They were bad dudes Doc and Freddy Barker,Alvin Karpis,but the Barkers had this dumb little ozark hillbilly mother ,well she was killed along with freddy in a hail of gunfire in a n.Fla house.Then the FBI creates this legend of MA BARKER and her crime school where her sons were her best students.The media took off with that one ,and you only have one side of any story.Thing havn`t changed
    Will the last reb to leave flarda,please bring the flag?[This message has been edited by 218Beekeep (edited 09-08-2001).]
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  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Idsman75....If I'm not mistaken, Ft Leonard Wood is in Missouri not Montana. Hell of a long way for the military to drive to help out on a meth lab raid. Also some of you LEOs out there...If two government agencies are investigating someone isn't there a procedure in place to determine which agency gets the take down? I don't know but I always thought the agency investigating the more severe crime got the lead. Can anyone here either confirm or debunk that? Thanks, Beach
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  • smokinggunsmokinggun Member Posts: 590 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A.T.F.-Arson, Terror, Fabricated evidence If you did know for a fact that Koresch was a child molester would you want him near your children? Of course not. Well, we all know what the A.T.F. does and we dont want them serving warrants of any type at our houses!! smokinggun[This message has been edited by smokinggun (edited 09-08-2001).]
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  • 5db5db Member Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    beach, I'm not sure but I believe according to the Equal Opportunity Act, it's the agency with the smallest budget or least amount of national exposure that gets the lead position. The other agencies involved stand by to either catch a little limelight or point fingers and deny prior knowledge.Also about WACO, it has never been the policy of any US agency to fire weapons at any unknown/un-seen civilian targets such as took place at WACO (shooting through walls, windows, doors and the roof). Furthermore, I would rather have my "abused" child back alive, than to die of smoke inhalation and burnt to the bone.
    If you have one shot...Accu-Shot Website[This message has been edited by 5db (edited 09-08-2001).]
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sir Beach --Let me past the first paragraph for a quick re-read...Agents with Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and the U.S.Customs Department continue to surround a home in Salem, Mo., south ofRolla. The standoff began at 2 p.m. Thursday when authorities attempted toexecute a search warrant and the resident refused to let them in.The abbreviation "MO" stands for Missouri. The abbreviation "MT" stands for Montana. Rolla, "MO" is just down the road from Fort Leonard Wood. I know exactly where it is because that is where I received my training as an investigator and returned there for some more training in Child Abuse investigations. As far as your theory about the existence of a "procedure" regarding who gets "the takedown" is concerned, there isn't one in all situations. I know of one situation where Fort Lewis, Washington's Special Reactions Team assisted Washington State Patrols SWAT team to "take down" a guy in a hostage-type situation. As far as investigations are concerned, I've worked jointly with city/county/state and even Canadian agencies jointly in order to solve certain cases. In cases where a civilian commits a crime on a military installation, either civilian agencies or military police and military police investigators can handle the case depending on whether it is a concurrent or exclusive jurisdiction type of installation. Sometimes cases like that are also handled jointly such as my first case which involved one count of theft and 21 counts of forgery. As far as "take-downs" are concerned, military police are called upon by local law enforcement agencies for assistance on a regular basis. Many instances of this come to mind including the aforementioned case.As far as "gripe sessions" between the Feds and the locals are concerned over "who gets the case" or "who gets the take-down"...that's Hollywood. Hollywood's handling of LE stories and military accounts have done more dis-service to our nation than any "Top Gun" or "Saving Private Ryan" could possibly make up. My favorite is hearing someone say, "I don't wanna join the military because I saw Boot Camp on television and it makes me scared." WAHHHHH!Respectfully....idsman75[This message has been edited by idsman75 (edited 09-08-2001).]
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  • Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My bad on the state abbreviation...shoulda paid closer attention in 7th grade!
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  • timberbeasttimberbeast Member Posts: 1,738 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    All I'm saying, guys, is that Weaver never knew who was gunning for him until well after the shots were fired, nor did Koresh. In Koresh's case, the ATF took his weapons away, and a judge returned them, as they were all legal. That was his death warrant. I don't see this as being the same, because the guy can come out and end it (if innocent), I hope!! Koresh and Weaver knew they had no alternative but to hole up. Vendettas were more important than legalities in those cases. I might be totally full of it, but this case seems different to me. Seems this guy WANTS the attention. Time will tell, but as has been stated, we'll never know all of the facts.
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  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thank you idsman...I saw the Montana lead in on the topic...and wondered why Fort Leonard Wood would be involved. Beach
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  • Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    www.sierratimes.com A man who was holed up in a home north of Salem was arrested without incident Saturday afternoon by officers who entered the house nearly 48 hours after a standoff began.The suspect offered no resistance when about 20 federal agents entered his home, said Mark James, special agent in charge of the Kansas City office of the Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.Authorities would not say who lived in the home, but relatives and neighbors identified the resident as 43-year-old James "Jamie" Schwartz.The standoff began Thursday afternoon at the home about eight miles north of Salem on Missouri 68 when agents tried to serve a federal search warrant and an occupant refused to come out.A woman left the home Thursday shortly after officers arrived. James would not say where she was or if she had been arrested. No children were in the home when officers arrived.James said he could not discuss what prompted the search warrant because it had been sealed by a judge. He would say only that agents "found what we were looking for."Denton County Sheriff Bob Wofford said his department had previous contact with the suspect but he declined to elaborate."We knew there was activity here," Wofford said.The suspect is expected to be arraigned before a federal magistrate in St. Louis, possibly as early as Monday, James said.A team of 12 negotiators had been unsuccessful in contacting the man throughout the siege, despite using bullhorns, a telephone and robots equipped with audio and visual capabilities.James said officers decided to enter the home in part because they were concerned about the man's condition."The individual would not answer us or respond to us," James said.About 100 officers, including some from U.S. Customs, surrounded the home throughout the standoff.Portions of Missouri 68 were closed and two homes located nearby were evacuated. James said the inconvenience caused by the standoff also was a factor in deciding to enter the home.Mike and Mary Mrozowicz, who live in a nearby home that was not evacuated, said the ranch-style house also has a mobile home on the property.The Mrozowiczes said they've seen men wearing camouflage clothing and helmets hiding in the nearby woods with guns.They said they've seen agents coming and going over the last couple of days, but the agents weren't giving area residents any clues what they were doing there.The warrant was ordered out of the eastern district of Missouri. Jan Diltz, spokeswoman for the U.S. Attorney's Office in St. Louis, said she could not discuss the warrant.
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Beach--No problem. I saw "Rolla" and was confused with the topic title myself. I thought that the "Mo" was a typo at first and then I started to wonder how many Rollas there are in this world.
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