The National Guard

HAL-9000 · January 2002

Man!.....Story on WorldNet.com, National Guardsman in SF, going off duty, while attempting to remove his loaded 9mm from his holster, to clear it. Shoot himself in the butt! God I feel safe knowing that they are on duty. This dumb smuck makes the NG look like total idiots, and gives the antigunners more fuel. I hope they bust this dope to E-1.laterHAL

idsman75 · January 2002

Boy it's been so long since I've seen some Monday morning quarterbacking. You do so well at it too.Let's take a look at the situation.The National Guard is not trained for "Airport Security". They were mere numbers and manpower grabbed up and issued M9's with no real rules of engagement. Yes, this was a tragedy but he could not draw the weapon from the holster. It was "stuck" in the holster which suggests that he was issued a Level III retention holster which takes time getting used to. Yes, your weapon will remain stuck in a Level III if you do not practice the technique for drawing from it. When I carried the M9 the act of breaking the thumb-snap on my Level III Bianchi holster took my weapon off "SAFE" every time. I've also seen someone push their Beretta into a certain Level III holster and push down on it which caused the slide to move back slightly and bring the weapon into "half-cock". The fact remains that this young man was called up out of the normal routine of his life as a "weekend warrior" and was sent to do a job for which he did not have the luxury of being trained -- all to make your sorry rear end feel more comfortable when you travel. Many are carrying weapons that they had not carried prior to this incident. Hell, I used to be in a Military Police Port Security unit and the only person in the unit that had a side-arm was the Company Commander. The rest of us carried M4's. The mission of the unit determines what weapons that unit will be issued. The National Guard is made up, primarily, of Combat Arms soldiers (Artillery, Tankers, Infantry). The Army Reserves is made up, primarily, of Combat Support troops. It is highly likely that he had never carried the M9 pistol before in his life. It is quite possible that he was called up, sent hurriedly to a qualification range to go through the motions of putting 50 holes in a paper target, and then sent to guard the airport. Before you slam those that have made a greater commitment to serve than you have, look before you leap.[This message has been edited by idsman75 (edited 01-06-2002).]

idsman75 · January 2002

First of all, the report stated specifically that his gun was "stuck" in his holster. Secondly, the Reserves and National Guard make up 50% of our national defense. Anyone versed in military history knows that one of the greatest empires in the history of the world was the Roman Empire and that it's greatness as a military power was derived from its strong reserve force. The responsibility does not lie upon the shoulders of the young man that shot himself. He lives in California and, more than likely, he has never had the opportunity to legally handle and familiarize himself with handguns. The fact remains that National Guardsmen and Reservists are handed handguns without adequate time for familiarization with those weapons. The responsibility lies on his leadership. By the way, military field manuals do not contain the 10 Commandments of Gun Safety. I was issued a Bianchi Level III holster at my first duty station. The National Guard is an asset of the state in which it exits. Hence, Level III holsters may not be issued to the National Guard in your state but that particular unit in California may use them. I did. I also know of many people in my unit not familiar with the Level III holster that had trouble with their M9's sticking. Mine did until I demanded an opportunity to practice drawing it. I remedied the problem. I know many that deployed to Central America that still did not know how to properly draw from their holsters and they still stuck.By the way dano, I clicked "Submit Now" after you did. We were typing at the same time. I wasn't addressing your response. I was addressing the initial author of this thread.I stirred the pot with this issue on Tom Gresham's "Gun Talk" radio show today as well. It seems to be a wonderful issue for that purpose.[This message has been edited by idsman75 (edited 01-06-2002).][This message has been edited by idsman75 (edited 01-06-2002).]

salzo · January 2002

The national guard should not be policing airports, or anything else for that matter. They are soldiers, not policemen.Say HELLO to the New Federal police force.

Happiness is a warm gun

Teamblue · January 2002

In my state the National Guardsmen in the airports are only allowed to carry their M-16's by order of the governor. They have explicit orders that they are to only provide backup to the LEO's also detailed to the airport. They are decent folks and get many "Thanks for being here." comments from the flying public.

Teamblue · January 2002

In my state the National Guardsmen in the airports are only allowed to carry their M-16's by order of the governor. They have explicit orders that they are to only provide backup to the LEO's also detailed to the airport. They are decent folks and get many "Thanks for being here." comments from the flying public.

1*

idsman75 · January 2002

Most military members that carry M9's are not given ANY opportunity to practice "clearing leather". They are handed the M9 and it is holstered immediately with the slide back. Then they take it to the clearing barrel, let the slide go home and then insert a magazine after the weapon is holstered. Reverse order for weapon turn-in. If they were ever caught practicing their draw, they would get fried. I have NEVER heard of a military police unit EVER allowing draw practice -- even at the schoolhouse (unless you are talking about PSD or SRT). The Nat'l Guardsmen may be fluff but they don't have much choice in the matter. The responsibility of the incident rests on the shoulders of hte leadership. This young fellow was more than likely placed in a situation where he was forced to carry a firearm where he WAS NOT ALLOWED to practice drawing (let alone firing).[This message has been edited by idsman75 (edited 01-07-2002).]

susie · January 2002

Here is a link to the article, judge for yourself: http://www.kron.com/Global/story.asp?S=606494&nav=5D7l63zm6Uhs

lrarmsx · January 2002

It isn't like the National Guard had prepared for this specific duty for years in advance. When I qualified in October, I was my Colonel's coach. He passed, but he didn't have a perfect score. With only limited range time and ammo, it can sometimes be difficult to get everyone the "hands on" traing they deserve. The ammo and the time must be planned for and forecast months, to years in advance. There wasn't much time to get people specifically trained up here for a duty they weren't slated for.It was suggsted that everyone in the unit qualify next year with the M9. This year it was only a select few. The rest qualified with their assigned weapon, the M16. There aren't that many duties in the military that call for a sidearm. They are only good at limited range. MP's train with them as well as a few other specialties. All the officers of a unit don't necessarily always get issued one. The TOE will dictate how many M9's are even authorized for the unit to have and from that who will be issued and trained on one. The Colonel told the unit that I could probably get everyone trained up to qualify them next year, but there is more to that than meets the eye. Some soldiers have had a brief familiarization with a pistol at basic or AIT, and nothing since, which could have been years or decades ago. I and a lot of you could probably qualify with one in our sleep, but some of these folks aren't in to guns like us, they're just being patriotic and doing their duty to the best of their ability.It is true that a soldier shouldn't be put on a duty station without proper training with their "now issued" equipment, but we don't live in a perfect world. If we did, several thousand people in NY and DC would still be alive and there would still be a World Trade Center and a intact Pentagon. We wouldn't have tens of thousands of our soldiers over seas. We wouldn't be expending billions of dollars in this fight, but we are. So a soldier shot himself in the rear, yeah like none of us has ever done something wrong or by accident. I bet if one of us was suddenly forced to fly the space shuttle next week without the benefit of months or years of training, something tells me we might do more than shoot ourselves in the rear. IDSMAN keep up the good fight.As for the holster used I would hope it would be a level II or III. The standard UM84 is fine for combat, but in combat you don't have possible enemy within 2-3 feet of you all day long. As for the use of the M16 that the soldiers might be better trained with, I guess I'd rather see them with the M9. In close quarters with a lot of friendlies in your AO a M16 can be a bit too large and harder to manuever within tight spaces. Not to mention the over penitration of a 5.56mm round of ammo in a crowded airport.Lets try to be a little sensitive to the situation. If we started pointing out all the screw ups that everyone did every day and saying "I would have done it this way..." We need a whole new board for the space.

COWBOYKIDD · January 2002

I read all the above but I guess I missed something, Im still wondering how he shot himself in the butt?The foot, leg, floor maybe.I can only think he must of had one huge * in order to get it shot.

Politicians Love Gun Control / China Has Gun Control

susie · January 2002

He screwed up! He had chambered a round which was verboten. This is the round that got him in the end.

v35 · January 2002

National Guard soldiers had a reputation for ineptness when I served in FECOM years ago. They had a bit of catching up to measure up to a Regular Army or draftees' training. It's no surprise to me to hear of the AD. If the NG is supposed to be ready to rapidly respond to emergencies and to supplement the military maybe their training needs to be looked at more critically.I haven't heard how they compared in Mogidishu, Desert Storm or Afghanistan but would be surprised to hear that they really measured up to full time military personnel.

thebutcher · January 2002

The dispute is not whether the National Guard is good or not. The real question is "did this happen because of poor training?" Everyone seems to agree that this is the case. If true, the National Guard needs to get out of the airports. We don't need untrained armed people in crowded places.

The definition of an "expert":An "X" is an unknown quantity and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.

idsman75 · January 2002

"Trained and Qualified" could very well mean that he had never been issued the weapon before and he was yanked to a range where he punched some holes in a paper target. That is essentially how weapons qualification works in the National Guard and Reserves. Yes, we do need a housecleaning but how much can you do one weekend a month? Ever spend an entire day trying to get bright intelligent people to serve?

Judge Dread · January 2002

And think they ridiculed my thread anss on the guy who shot his nuts off wile belt gun draw shooting. this one is weirder ....was he trying to scratch a butt itch and the gun went off ??....HE HE HE !

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ░ ▒▒

idsman75 · January 2002

JudgeDread--you have a talent for cutting through tension like a hot knife through butter.

oldfriends · January 2002

This thread has been interesting but more than a little discouraging. All from a bunch of guys who are averaging 40-60 years of age and, no doubt remember the quality of the national guard of the Viet Nam era. During that time I have to admit that quality was not too good. A lot of them then were draft dodgers. Some good soldiers but mostly draft dodgers. The national guard of today, for the most part is quite a bit better. They have a mission, they train for that mission, and when called upon, peform that mission. Airport security was not included in most units' Mission Essential Task List (METL). This is a new mission. As far as the accident discussed here, there are about 10,000 soldiers guarding every comercial airport in the U.S. Yes, they are armed with real weapons and real bullets. Take 10,000 readers of this forum (experienced as we all espouse), give us a loaded weapon, assign us to an unfamiliar job and I would imagine there is just as much potential for an accidental discharge. No excuse, I will agree. I am not defending this one soldier, I am defending the national guard in general. There are all sorts in all components of the military, active and reserve. In thirty years of service, I have seen ADs by very experienced professionals (Delta). I have seen ADs by competitors. I have seen ADs on qualification ranges. They happen, there is no excuse for their occurance but they do not occur only in the national guard. Most of us would not recognize todays national guard as compared to the guard and reserve of the 60s and 70s. I appreciate your indulgence.

Life is Tough!It's Tougher if You're Stupid

idsman75 · January 2002

I'm pulling out what's left of my receeding hairline. How can we place the responsibility on a soldier who receives little to no firearms training whatsoever and then is expected to handle it responsibly.

idsman75 · January 2002

Before I was active duty I was in the Reserves for six months. I KNEW, without a doubt, that I would have to fire the M9. I left for training 2 months after my 21st b-day. The day I turned 21 I walked into the Sheriff's office and obtained a pistol permit. I then drove about an hour down the road to the police supply store which sells guns and bought an old beat-up Beretta 92 with painted-on night sights and learned it inside and out. I can't stand the Beretta and sold it for a loss before I left for training but I damn well knew how it worked. It's a pity this boy didn't have that freedom in the PRK.

6MMX284 · January 2002

I have read all the above, please if I could say one thing, this was ONE MAN! Like alot of you out there who may know someone who is not the "sharpest" knife in the drawer, these people tend to get through the cracks and yes into the armed services. Please dont put all of us in the same catagory, I have been in the National Guard since '87, served in Desert Storm, and been on many of flood and snow duties, all of which had a job to be done. These missions were completed, no one on my squad or in my unit was hurt, or hurt anyone else in the process. I must say accidents happen, its sad when a firearm is involved it gives more firepower for the liberals and anit-gun groups to dwell on. I have always looked to the good in a situation, if a person is willing to put his or her life on the for me, and if that means walking around the airport with a pistol or m16, then that person has my respect. Any person who wears a military uniform, from the marines to the coast guard, army, air force, or navy, reserve and the national guard I personally thank all of you, I have been and still serve my country with pride and hope that those who may look at us through different eyes, remember you are either part of the solution, or.....you know the rest. God Bless.....swishman

In God We Trust...All Others Cash!

concealedG36 · January 2002

Well said, 6MMX284. I thank all of the people serving our country. It's too bad this guy is making you look bad. I don't think he represents the whole.G36

Gun Control Disarms Victims, NOT Criminals[This message has been edited by concealedG36 (edited 01-12-2002).]

Bullzeye · January 2002

The National Guard: America's sixth line of defense, behind the National Society for the Deaf, and the League of Women Voters.(DISCLAIMER: I didnt author that!)

idsman75 · January 2002

But you felt the need to repeat it.6MMX284--I had my share of sand-bag filling during Hurricane Mitch down in Honduras. It's not glorious work but there's a lot of blood, sweat and tears that come with even the most menial tasks that the men and women of the National Guard are called upon to perform. The citizens of your state ought to be proud that you and your colleagues serve.

6MMX284 · January 2002

idsman75- this is the reason I look at this everyday, its the people who make it great. Sure we may not see "everything" from the same view, but down deep I firmly believe we stand for the same values. I am proud to be associated with all of you. As for those sandbags, wow you really have to be there to realize what it takes to put back what mother nature tears out. If you have never heard it from anyone else, thank you...I am sure it was demanding. Swishman

In God We Trust...All Others Cash!

idsman75 · January 2002

Cleaning up the sand and sandbags AFTER the hurricane has done it's job is almost worse than filling them. I've heard that the army has purchased some automatic sandbag filling machines. We sure could have used them!

beachmaster73 · January 2002

While this thread may not be the right place for the following I have to ask it anyway since there are more than a few military guys writing on this thread. I retired in 1995. When I retired each of my six 21 man Beachmaster Teams fired an average of 4-6 thousand rounds every month, And during the months immediately before deployment the number of rounds expended would go up. I also signed custody cards for Team members to take out their M-16s/M203's privately with a couple hundred rounds of ammo for additional training if they wanted it. Now here's the question: Some active duty Army bubba on another board asked me if he could buy some L.C. Match .308 ammo from me because he found out I buy quite a bit from Camp Perry during the National Matches. When I told him that the 173 grain L.C."Long Range" ammo in the military supply system is nearly every bit as good as the Match stuff and recommended he just go to his C.O. get some from the Army for his competition shooting and save himself a little money he told me that his unit fired very little ammo and then only during annual quals. And he said there was no ammo available for competition shooting or keeping personal standards high. He was in a light infantry unit. Is this in fact the case? I might have bought his explanation if he had been an intel weenie or logistics weenie....but light infantry? I mean right before I retired I taught some of my non-pistol shooters combat pistol shooting using the old Shanghai Police Department method and we must have expended 500 rounds per man. No one would have even thought to have raised an eyeball. What has happened? Beach

idsman75 · January 2002

Unless you are SF or Delta, the only way you will fire a military weapon is under the micromanagement and EXTREME supervision of a military range. A CO has to go through months of paperwork just to get ammo allocated for a range. It's a REAL pain the *. As far as firing civilian ammo in military weapons is concerned, YEAH RIGHT! The only way to maintain your skills in today's Army is to purchase your own weapons and your own ammo and find a range where you can fire it. A few Army posts have ranges for privately owned weapons. From what I have heard, Fort Benning's is the best. I was a military police investigator on Fort Drum, NY. Within 30 days of arrival I was carrying an M11 concealed on duty in civilian clothing everywhere I went (on post). In order to even get a permit to purchase a pistol in the county where I lived, you had to reside there for one year and then go through a 6 month wait before it was given to you. Fingerprints were run through state and FBI. You had to get a letter from your CO (few of which will grant that letter) and notarized affidavits from four other people attesting to your character. Fortunately my CO and I had an off-line "understanding" since he was buddies with a few of my roommates while I was at West Point. I was on orders to leave Fort Drum before my NY CCW was issued to me. It's good for 6 years and I plan on going back there when my tour as a recruiter is up. If you are a single soldier and live in the barracks, you have to turn your weapons into the arms room or have a married individual living in post housing or off post store those weapons and ammo for you. instrumentofwar has a Matthews bow that he was not allowed to store in his barracks room. Do you know how hard it is to get a privately-owned weapon out of an Army arms room for personal use? It can only be checked out for 24 hours which means that you have to convince the armorer to come and open the arms room during their time off to take it back from you. A NY CCW requires that you list the storage location by address on your permit along with all of your handguns. Therefore, you can't store them at someone else's house. Hmm...cant us them if I store them in the arms room and can't store them at someone else's house....Can we say "off-post storage locker"? It's illegal as hell in NY but I will neither confirm nor deny that I did it. We also won't talk about the guns that may or may not have been acquired through an FFL and listed on the permit (which is the only way to legally acquire a handgun in the state of NY). Currently, all handguns that were listed on my permit have been traded or sold since I left NY. The Army requires that you fire your primary weapon 2X's a year and the M-16 1X/year if it is not your primary weapon. It is difficult for CDRS to get range time and ammo for more than that. Remember, it wasn't long ago that the Army was declaring an Ammo shortage and was cancelling all non-critical ranges. Non-critical ranges were being defined as those above and beyond what was needed for soldiers remaining "qualified" to the above range schedule. As a recruiter, I will go 3 years without touching an M-16. That's fine, I like to go out and show my firearms the love when I get the opportunity[This message has been edited by idsman75 (edited 01-12-2002).]

john w · January 2002

Aw who gives a crap--It was his but not our's

BlueTic · January 2002

Now for the rest of the Story - What in the Hell is the National Guard doing in our airports WITH GUNS. Or even without Guns. There is NO NEED for major military deployment here in America. If our stupid political morons (redundancy needed) can't get their heads out long enough to see that the problem is in the air (gee - we cant put guns in an airplane - what if they use them),not on the ground. Of course the propoganda machine has already done it's work about the private airport security's problems. And we all know that the government can do it better - with less cost and low overhead.... And some guy has an accident. Don't bother me if it's in SF - I'm suprised they let em carry anything but rainbow stickers there....

IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY RIGHTS - GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY (this includes politicians)

Bullzeye · January 2002

The only real reason I've got a chip on my shoulder about the National Guard is because they're the single most common reason I get for why the 2nd Amendment means nothing and should be immediately rubbed out with a big pink eraser.A militia? That's the National Guard! Duh!Uh huh. Last time I checked a real militia raises it's own funds, recruits its own members, buys its own supplies, and exists entirely seperate from the US Government, be it local, county, state, or federal.Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought that clause was added to the Constitution for the specific purpose of ensuring civilians could have some way of protecting themselves and ensuring their rights if the actual US Armed Forces, operating under the funding and leadership of the state and federal government suddenly became repressive or unable to protect the country.A militia is supposed to be Minutemen, isnt it? A final backup? Y'know?Bullzeye the Confused signature thief.(sorry mudge. You're still the man.)

idsman75 · January 2002

The Nat'l Guard in airports are quite a bit like the poor MP's that get stuck with guard duty at the major entrances to military installations. Neither presence does ANYTHING to stop crime. MP presence at the gates makes the community feel better but does not affect the crime rate because drug dealers and thugs will come on post one way or another. National Guard in airports was a symbolic gesture. That's it. Sorta like gun control.

The National Guard

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