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North Hollywood Shootout

shiznut123shiznut123 Member Posts: 18 ✭✭
edited February 2002 in General Discussion
Did anyone see the special program on it last night on History Channel ? It was pretty cool. These two guys held off 3 cities police forces for an hour. That kind of thing wouldnt have happen in Texas because some regular citizen would have come along and taken these robbers out with a sniper shot.
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  • shiznut123shiznut123 Member Posts: 18 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    When one of the robbers had his handgun shot out of his hand, he picked it up and got shot by the police in the shoulder area I believe. He dropped fast. What caliber gun did he get shot by?
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  • badboybobbadboybob Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    A BB (big bore) Warner Brothers semi automatic revolver loaded with a week's supply of ammo.
    PC=BS
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  • steve45steve45 Member Posts: 2,940 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    When Barnaby Jones shot a man in the shoulder with his .38 snubnose, they went down and stayed down. I therefore declare the .38 snubnose to be the finest defense caliber available.
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  • royc38royc38 Member Posts: 2,235 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I saw those episodes Steve but I think it is a tie between that and McGarretts snubnose 38 on Hawaii Five-0.
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  • jdb123jdb123 Member Posts: 471 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    .38 are for old timers give me a 10mm
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  • 5db5db Member Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If'n I'm not mistaken, that individual (walking along sidewalk by privacy fence) was head/neck shot by a SWAT sharpshooter using either a .223 or .308.
    If you have one shot...Accu-Shot Website
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  • LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    You forgot to mention, Barnaby Jones made that shot from 200 yards away, while ducking down and on a full run.It's a toss-up as to who was more deadly with the .38 snubby, Barnaby Jones or (going waaaaaayyyyyy back) Dan Matthews (Broderick Crawford), Highway Patrol.Matthews could have a guy 300 yards away on a hilltop, blazing away at him with a scoped 'ought six, mising him all around, and Big Dan would take him with just one quick hip shot from the dreaded .38 snubbie.They don't make gunslingers like that anymore.
    Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The latest version of that is that the guy picked up the gun and shot himself in the head, while being simultaneously shot in the back of the head probably by an AR-15 or police handgun. Before that, I had always heard it was a simple suicide. Lately they've been talking two bullets, one in the back of the neck. (Sorry to be so serious on you boys, but I never bought Barnaby as a cop anyhow...)
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
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  • elmos608elmos608 Member Posts: 124 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Offeror said it all. This is the same information I came across. But I'm pretty sure two handguns were involved.
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  • RembrandtRembrandt Member Posts: 4,486 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    If memory serves me correctly, Barnaby was really Jed Clampet...anyone that can shoot at a rabbit and strike millions in oil should be able to hit a bad guy at 200yds with a snubby....
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  • royc38royc38 Member Posts: 2,235 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Now for the best of ALL TIME, its got to be Rat Patrol. Anyone that can shoot up tiger and panzer tanks with 50 cals and Thompson .45s from two jeeps has got big brass ones.
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  • YankeeClipperYankeeClipper Member Posts: 669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have a model of the .38 S&W that was the type issued to the FBI. I would like to see you stop a model T Ford withone of these.
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Shoot the driver in the head?
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yankee --You may be thinking of the Florida shootout, in which the FBI was outgunned. You're so right. I think that's when they started trying the 10mm for a while. Always been curious whether I'd enjoy owning a 1076... Without that bit of history, we probably wouldn't have a .40 S&W today...
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
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  • SmokewagonSmokewagon Member Posts: 40 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bad guy shot himself in the head.
    Stf.Sgt.J.Kysela/Oklahoma City Police Dept. F/A Instructor.
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  • boogerbooger Member Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've watched the video several times and slowed it down as well. Now, most footage that is shown doesn't show the "kill" shot but to me it appears only one "puff" through his stocking head entering from the right and exiting left.The only odd thing is that the gun does not appear to be all the way up to the side of the head. Perhaps he was going to shoot himself but got whacked by a cop standing beside the brick wall before his gun was all the way up.Either way, I'm going with the single bullet theory.What I want to know is what happened to the second shooter. Specifically where were his injuries? Did they shoot under the cars to hit his feet/legs then he got more hits. I'm glad they left him to die though.
    Them ducks is wary.[This message has been edited by booger (edited 02-10-2002).]
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I only read a brief bit about the florida FBI shootout. Someone once told me that one of the "backup" guys was having relations with a waitress in a restaurant bathroom when he should have been helping out his buddies. Any truth to that?
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  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    I understand the cops couldnt pierce the car they were hiding behind or the armor they were wearing with their 9mm handguns, so they ran to a local gunstore and came back with some high-powered rifes.So what does CA do afterwards? Use the incident as reason to ban all assault-type weapons.Un-friggin-believeable right?"Sorry officer, I dont carry AR-15s, or SAR-1s, or anything like that. I've got some Ruger .22 pistols! Just cant give 'em to you for another 2 weeks."I'd like to know what sort of rifles they came back with though. Just out of curiousity.Addendum: The guy may have been shot with a .223 from a SWAT M-4 or M-16, but not from any sniper. No self-respecting sniper from anywhere uses a rifle chambered for .223.Plus I know for a fact the LAPD snipers train with the Robar SR-60 bolt-action in .308 Win.
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You say that as though a sniper has a choice in the type of ammo he uses.
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  • boogerbooger Member Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    They came back with AR-15's or clones.At one news conference with the Police Chief some limp wristed reporter asked if they would be prosecuting the gun store owner for violating dozens of gun laws in simply handing out the guns to the officers, (no paperwork, waiting period etc.) His televised response, "Hell no".
    Them ducks is wary.
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  • 5db5db Member Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well, Bullzeye, maybe you are wise beyond your years, but it is possible that Kaliforia might indeed issue .223 caliber rifles to their Sharpshooters, I don't know, that's why I suggested ".223 or .308". "The guy may have been shot with a .223 from a SWAT M-4 or M-16, but not from any sniper." Please tell me what facts do you base this conclusion on? Also, does Robar offer the SR-60 in anything other than the bolt-action? I know they offer this rifle in "Any standard caliber".
    If you have one shot...Accu-Shot Website
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  • k.stanonikk.stanonik Member Posts: 2,109 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I watched a show on the learning channel about LA swat teams, they said a couple of members drove up to where the gunman was and one of them shot him with a AR.
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  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    5db:I base that on the simple fact that I have never heard of a sniper who trusted the ballistics and damage potential of the .223 enough to use it as a sniper round.When you only have one shot, when having to make a follow up shot means having dead hostages, you dont screw around with a peashooter round..308, 7mm RemMag, or .300 WinMag, almost universally.
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  • 5db5db Member Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bullzeye, Please indulge me here, I know little about this "sniper" stuff but I do know the LAPD, LACo.SD nor any other Law Enforcement Department have "snipers". They have Sharpshooters or Counter-Sniper units. You are right, the .308, .300 Winch, are capable common rounds for use in this field. Bear in mind most Police shootings with the rifle, average 60 yards. At that range, secondary damage is a concern in the .30 calibers so the relatively light bullet of .223 becomes a bit more attractive to some. Would that be my choice? Nope, but I'm not governed by the people on what I shoot. However, the LEO has to use what caliber has been dictated by his/her department. This often comes from heads of the departments that have to be sensitive to the community. Back to the point, I don't know what caliber was used to end the career of the Bank robber but it was sufficient. Be it .223 or .308. Last, why would a "Sniper" miss the intended target with a "peashooter" .223 caliber yet be able to hit it with a larger .308 caliber? Isn't that one of the traits of the skilled rifleman?A little food for thought, none of the folks I've met that do these things for a living, mention missing.
    If you have one shot...Accu-Shot Website
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Snipers are trained to hit their target. Special Reactions Teams (read "SWAT") in the Army are trained to hit the T-zone. If you hit the T-zone, it won't matter if you hit it with a .223 or a .308.
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  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Pay no mind to him 5db. he is a ballistic expert who interns under all of the famous sharpshooters out there. If he says it's a no good pea shooter than it must be. he has been well trained in this area and he knows what he is talking about. Under his recomendations we need to inform all military and law enforcment agencies out there that they have been sadly mistaken about the choice they made in regards to the weapon and caliber they use. A .223 will not kill they enemy, it mearly stings him. wont stop him or slow him down, just sting. We must equip all military and leo's with a full auto machine gun loaded with heatseeking exploding bullets in nothing smaller than the famous and more superior .375 h&h mag. just think all of that wasted money and time spent on the .223. all we had to do was ask the "pea shooter" expert. BTW not only will it fail at killing or stopping anything larger than a squirrel at 5 paces, it also will not hit the broad side of a barn. Bullet does backflips and figure 8's as it leaves the barrel.
    If you want my guns you will have to kill me first. I was born free and to take that from me you better be ready to fight.
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  • smokepolesmokepole Member Posts: 34 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    A buddy's dad who was in the FBI bought him a 1076 through the Bureau. I handled it a bit and it is a BIG gun. I have average size hands and I was not able to work all the controls without twisting the gun in my hand. And in just routine shooting, I found my middle finger resting on the oversize mag release. It's a nice gun and well made, but I just don't understand whom it's made for.
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  • 218Beekeep218Beekeep Member Posts: 3,033
    edited November -1
    Doesn`t anybody like bees? .218
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  • OtomanOtoman Member Posts: 554 ✭
    edited November -1
    O.K. This has gone far enough, What is a .218 bee and this man who refers to himself as .218 beekeeper...stir, stir, and a little bit aggitate...
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  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    I'm not saying it wouldnt do the job if you scored a direct hit to the brainpan (or possibly the heart or spine).And I'll openly admit that a .300 WinMag or .308 round would have an over-penetration problem to consider as well.But the simple fact of the matter is that in a hostage situation, if you do not kill the suspect with your first shot, he will most likely turn and kill the hostages. It has happened many times before in botched HR attempts, and can basically be universally expected to happen if you do not utterly eliminate his ability to move his finger with your first shot.The 5.56 round does not have sufficient mass and energy to guarantee a takedown and instantaneous death in anything other than a direct brain-stem shot. I cant phrase it any simpler.Elite snipers are taught that a center-brainpan hit on an individual holding his finger taut on the trigger of an automatic rifle set on rock-and-roll will often result in the guy convulsing heavily and pulling off several rounds, sometimes even the entire mag worth of ammo as he goes down if the round does not do enough damage.Obviously, with hostages nearby, this is unacceptable.The larger calibers can almost always destroy enough of the brain to guarantee he goes down like a puppet with cut strings instead of a speared fish.Only a brainstem hit guarantees he'll go down convulsion-free every time, but in a situation where people's lives are on the line, why take the chance?The 5.56mm round is used now to pierce body armor. Why would it be expected to prevent over-penetration any more than a .30-06 or a .308?It may be smaller, but it's definately faster than many larger rounds. I think it is faster than either the .30-06 or the .308, but I'm not certain.Again, good for AP, bad for over-penetration, and bad for overall damage (the round being as small as it is).Snipers are also taught to not shoot until the probable bullet-path behind the perp is clear.I saw a feature on TV about a veteran police sniper in Arizona or someplace like that. He was at a bank robbery gone sour that resulted in hostages being taken. The sole suspect walked into the open to retrieve a throw-phone, and the sniper was given the greenlight to fire.He missed. The guy looked around, scratched his head for about 5 seconds, and caught a second round in the side of the head.Reason: the stupid idiot sniper forgot to calibrate his windage and BDC before he fired the $7,500 H&K MSG-1 the taxpayers gave him.The reporter tried to pawn it off as nothing, but I was absolutely shocked a sniper could make such a stupid and basic mistake. If that crook hadnt been dumb to the core, he would have run back inside the bank and started wasting hostages. I think the sniper should have been fired immidiately. What do you think?Once again, I'm open for debate. I love debating this topic.
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  • 218Beekeep218Beekeep Member Posts: 3,033
    edited November -1
    I`m warnin` ya...I`m gunna get my big brother .222 on ya!!.218
    Did somebody say somethin` about bees?
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  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's not a debate, your an 18 year old high school student who is coming off as an expert at Law Enforcment tactics. You seem to think that a .223 is worthless, you say the only way to drop a person with it is a direct brain hit. If your so smart why don't you tell the military and Law Enforcment they are wrong. Everbody has an opinion, I have mine, .218 has his, offeror has his, and so does many others. We all have opinions. Yours are backed up from reading magazines, copying pages from them and pretending to be well educated. While I have never shot at a human, and pray to god I never have to, I have some experiance with the .223. What I have seen this cal. do has made a believer out of me, so has quite a few other cal's. You want to see devastation? Shoot a full size deer with an '06 pushing 125 grain ballistic tips at over 3000fps, I got proof what that ld does, wanna see a picture of it? Knowing what the '06 will do and my 7mm, I still like the .223 for deer, which a live deer will wiegh on average 180lbs, average man,180lbs, may not be a perfect match but I feel I can somewhat compare the two, just like some will use ballistic gelatin to retreive penetration and expansion data. I trust the .223 so much, if I could have only one deer rifle, that would be it. You talk about all of these different cals like you shoot them and do extensive research. What you oughta do is get some experiance with them before you judge them. Reading magazines will not always give you the truth, most articles are wrote based on opinion, I can buy 5 different mags and get 5 different opinions on any certain subject. take my 7mm ultra mag, 10 people will say it sucks and is a waste, 10 people will praise it. Same with the .223, you show me 10 people who don't like it and I can show you 10 who love it. it is not as worthless as you make it out to be.
    If you want my guns you will have to kill me first. I was born free and to take that from me you better be ready to fight.
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  • 218Beekeep218Beekeep Member Posts: 3,033
    edited November -1
    I aggree,the .223 is an awesome little round!The big 30s are overkill for most situations...now for Police Sharpshooter type deal,maybe something in between..small 6 to 7 MM,like the 7MM-08.For combat,the .223 seems to be the right choice,a lot of punch ,and you get to carry more ammo..218
    Did somebody say somethin` about bees?[This message has been edited by 218Beekeep (edited 02-13-2002).]
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  • twinstwins Member Posts: 647 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Not to mentin the amount of damage the round does. Don't forget that it takes more resources to care for the wounded than the dead. One of my friends spent six years as a Navy corpsman, the 5.56 in his opinion is devastating on humans. Exactly what it was designed for.
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  • 5db5db Member Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bullseye,No debate here. I'm not sure where you get your information but to pass it off as fact is troubling. i.e.. "Reason: the stupid idiot sniper forgot to calibrate his windage and BDC before he fired the $7,500 H&K MSG-1 the taxpayers gave him."Where did you get this information from? At what range did the shots take place? Did the covering reporter say this? That's a lot of information for a reporter to come up with. As has been stated, the perpetrator of this subject matter was head/neck shot. Anyone that saw that, saw him drop like a "puppet with cut strings". If you want to decide what he was shot with be my guest.
    If you have one shot...Accu-Shot Website
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  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    The sniper was shooting with a Heckler and Koch MSG-1 in 7.62mm NATO Match JHPThe sniper admitted his mistake in the interview. He didnt seem to think it was a big deal either.Like I said, if the perp had acted like perps usually do, he would have wasted the hostages and that missed shot would have been a terminal Murphy instead of a harmless mistake.
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