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Where Has Evil Been?
Evil ATF
Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
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Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum est ("A sword is never a killer, it's a tool in the killer's hands") ~~ Lucius Annaeus Seneca "the younger" ca. (4 BC - 65 AD)
I'm serious, so listen close. Call the FBI and tell them you are fully prepared as a good citizen to make a deal to be an informant. Then take as many of those BATF deals as you can get and sting the hell out of them as an undercover informer for the Federal Bureau of Investigation. What they are doing is illegal -- it's at the very least entrapment, and at the most GOVERNMENT AGENTS ARE TRYING TO SELL YOU ILLEGAL ARMAMENTS, and if they wore you down and you took a deal, they'd claim it was your criminal mind at work.
Call the FBI, and tell them that you are officially registering a complaint about attempts by certain BATF agents to conspire for criminal acts, and that you are officially registering your desire to be recruited as an informer against these individuals. Back up your offer by asking for their fax number and faxing in your offer in detail on paper. Better yet, send it to them by registered mail, return receipt requested. Keep a copy of your statement and the mail or fax receipts.
Unless they want you as an informant to make a citizen's arrest, they'd better get the BATF to stop hounding you. Whatever happens, save everything from an encounter with these people for evidence. Encourage them to list the armaments they're offering you on paper (say you have a poor memory) and keep those written lists in a safe like they were the Hope diamond. Keep casual receipts, even gas to meetings, matchbook covers, everything, sales slips for coffee had with these guys, any gifts they give you even if its just a cigarette. Save the butt. Make notes on what everything was for, write the date on it. If you can get prints, get their finger or palm images too, on any object, and cover it with clear tape or wrap it for future analysis. Get a friend to take "low-key" casual pictures of you all together, even if they're just Kodak snapshots at a distance (hi res though, 35mm, make them sharp). If you really want to be in their face about their actions, ask if they mind if you tape them from now on. Then, if you can carry a little dictation machine, let it run in your shirt pocket around these guys (but tape it in there with velcro; can't have it dropping out). Change the batteries so you don't miss anything.
Be sure to use an answering machine at home and if you get any messages save the tapes too. Buy extras at Radio Shack and change them whenever you get one. Write the date on it.
Whenever you have enough stuff together, give a package of it to somebody else you trust. If you get raided, all your work will be for naught if they get your evidence along with you. If you get anything really damning, send copies to the media. (They like pictures and sound bites of govt. officials doing questionable stuff.)
I'm assuming, of course, that you are not a crook, and that you are what a reasonable American would call patriotic. Nixon was wrong when he thought so, but if you're right, these guys' behavior deserves to be fully documented. The NRA site, www.nraila.org, has e-mail directly to all govt. officials, including the Pres and Vice Pres and probably the head of Homeland Security. They might be interested in what's happening to you as well.
You can also bet that if they know you post here, they keep an eye on you here as well. Hi, guys! I'm a law-abiding Life member of the NRA, and I vote!
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Edited by - offeror on 07/16/2002 16:22:05
When Clinton left office they gave him a 21 gun salute. Its a damn shame they all missed....
Like RockinU, I would like to help in anyway I can. Just let me know.
I'm not afraid of the dark...the dark is afraid of me!
rodney colson
Wouldn't it be interesting to have a modern club that combined a fitness course with combat shooting exercises? Wouldn't that be more fun than fitness alone, golf alone, bowling alone, or paintball alone? I have a feeling some of the appeal of some militias is that they are essentially men's clubs with the patriotic feel of the American Legion and an interesting combination of physical activities -- from running an obstacle course to running a shooting judgment course. We have the Legions and the VFWs and the Elks with their flags and rituals, we have the shooting ranges doing good business and we have fitness clubs - but for some reason when you mix them together in a more interesting and perhaps useful martial art flavor, they become something scary. I think militias should smarten up and, if they're organized fitness/shooting clubs, call themselves something without the militia buzzword. I think one could even franchise such a club for adult fitness and make a lot of money. (Idea copyright Steven H. Towsley, July 16, 3:30 Central time, 2002) -- just in case....
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
rodney colson
Get an attorney involved if you don't already have one.
Your own emotion (probably "justifiable anger" about the government intrusion in your life) can blind you!
A good attorney can look at the situation without emotional involvement--if what you say is accurate, the Feds are breaking the law--but without an attorney on your side to point-out the specifics to them, they'll just keep "breathing down your neck".
The angrier you get, they more you "play into their hands".
Anyway I hope things work out for you. Good Luck.
Davidians got what they deserved cause they brought it on themselves. How many times did we hear that?
Randy Weaver got what he deserved because he brought it on himself.No one even questions whether or not the Federal government had any business going after Weaver or the Davidians. And if Evil is not doing anything wrong, one should question why the government is harassing him-instead Evil is pelted with "you get what you deserve"
There was a case that the Supreme court ruled on during this countries infancy, in which the court overstepped its constitutional boundries against the State of Georgia. Rather than adhere to the unconstitutional ruling, the governor of Georgia warned any federal entity that attempted to enforce the ruling, would be hung by the neck without benefit of clergy. Of course, the Federalis stayed the hell away from Georgia.
Nowadays, anyone who would even suggest that they would defy the government in its unconstitutional actions is labeled a kook. What a buncjh of pansies we have become!
"The powers delegated by the proposed constitution to the federal governmentare few and defined, and will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace negotiation, and foreign commerce"
-James Madison
With one or two exceptions, militias have not been known for trouble, or advocating the violent overthrow of or violent resistance to any arm of the US government. I fail to see how membership in most militias would or should put someone under suspicion and lead to an attempted set-up for acquiring illegal weapons. Has the word 'militia' become a buzzword for something? Not in my mind. In fact, religious sects seem to be the source of far more trouble, violent radicalism and self-destructive group action.
Therefore, unless you have special knowledge that this "Ron" guy (whom I know nothing of) has led his group into some sort of Jonestown-like quagmire with loud talk and illegal action, I wonder how you can assume there is anything resembling civil disobedience in this organization's mission.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Edited by - offeror on 07/16/2002 23:48:46
Evil, you know me from another board. Whether we see eye to eye on everything, probably not, but we both want the same thing, probably with the same intensity. I am with you on knowing what Militias are and are not. Too bad others don't feel the same way. We could otherwise avoid all the BS. Apparently, certain sheep haven't taken the red pill, yet.
Death to Tyrants!!!
-Gunphreak
What Evil is doing is righteous...if he has convictions, he should be allowed to shout it from the rooftops. He should be able to put forth his political beliefs to the press and the public just as anyone CAN and SHOULD. Stand up and be counted.
Evil...really mix them up...run for local office. It might be easy to smear a "local militia nut"...but it is pretty hard to smear a state senator, county commissioner, or local mayor. The ATF will back way off is you start running for office. They don't want to interfere in local politics. If the majority of people in your area feel as you do...run as an independent and win. Then use the system against the batmen.
Just a suggestion...I would contribute to your militia PAC. Dont fight the system, use it and reform it.
regards swede
WyomingSwede
Again, assuming you're being unfairly targeted, then your only other resources may be John Ashcroft himself or the head of the new Homeland Security.
Here's the thing. We ARE a nation of laws. The founding fathers knew we would be one when they created a legislative body called Congress to make laws and a judicial branch to interpret them and a Supreme Court to be the last word on the subject. And that old urban legend about nobody having to pay taxes to the IRS was debunked long ago, and if there ever was such a loophole it's been closed for a long time.
So the militia in this country, organized or unorganized, is not an excuse to indulge in civil disobedience. The last time a large group had a righteous case for civil disobedience was probably the Blacks in the South in the 60s. There's nothing going on right now that requires taking up arms against our own government. Notice I didn't say there's nothing wrong with our government, but because we are a nation of people who believe in law and order (we gun rights people rightfully refer to ourselves as "law-abiding citizens"), we work to change the stuff we don't like from within the legal system. This is true at both the federal and state level.
For example, those unlucky gun fanciers who live in states like California have to work harder to get more rights to possess and shoot the arms they prefer, whether they're hunters, plinkers or paper-punchers. Those like me in Indiana work just as hard to keep our comparatively free status from being taken away from us by liberal legislators at the federal level. We both work to improve the government, and we own guns, but do not make the mistake of mixing the two things. We do not use our guns to oppose the law. If we oppose the law, we work to change it, with the help of the NRA and the GOA and whoever else is willing to pitch in.
A militia, properly done, is a group of men who believe in practicing for a day they hope will never come. They run exercises, they do target practice, they practice survival and teamwork. What they don't do is plan illegal ops and collect illegal guns the way hippies used to buy grass, flaunting the law because they "believe" it "should be" legal. We outgrew that crap a long time ago. If you breaks the law, you takes your lumps.
Wouldn't it be funny after all this time if the hippies and the militias had that in common -- the willingness to pretend the law is meant for the squares. That's longhair logic, dude.
It doesn't matter if you've got pot under lights in your basement or illegal armament, if you bend the law the government will bend back, once they find out about it. When you indulge in civil disobedience, you risk the consequences. Trouble is, your cause better be as righteous as the Blacks in Alabama, or history won't view you nearly as well.
I'm not into this secret brotherhood, "we know what we know, wink, wink" junk. There may be black helicopters, but if there are I'm going to see John Ashcroft about them, not buy myself a machine gun without an NFA license.
Sorry for the sermon, but this was on my mind this morning.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Edited by - offeror on 07/17/2002 10:56:40
Pack slow, fall stable, pull high, hit dead center.
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Is it too late to guess The Law's other identity? Cause I think we've got a real strong contestant that just popped up his little pin-head.
Edited by - Bullzeye on 07/17/2002 16:07:12
What's your problem?
Don't worry about the bullet with your name on it, worry about the fragmentation grenade addressed 'To Occupant'.
New Hampshire, USA - "Live Free or Die!!!"
The militia movement is the ultimate manifestation of the desire for independence from government in all aspects of life to include the defense of our nation. It is nice to think that the military is there to protect us but it is hardly plausible to believe that the military is 100% fully capable of protecting us in all circumstances. If you own a gun for the purpose of protecting yourself then your mindset is not far off from the mindset of someone who joins a militia. Militia members have just taken that mindset to another level by committing themselves to protecting their communities and their nation as well. Naturally the government and the government media machine has done everything possible to demonize this patriotic mindset every step of the way possible by giving the title "militia" to organizations that are more accurately described as "extremist groups". There is a difference. Thank God we had an "extremist" group that no longer wanted to live under the royal thumb of England.
ZiggedandZagged@aol.com
Even if the scenario were not true, and on the internet one never knows absolutely that anyone is who he says he is, the advice being given in the thread would still be just as appropriate to such a scenario, and just as much a matter of interest to anyone concerned about the possibility of militia harrassment.
ZigZag--
Thank you very much for the article. It's great, and makes my day. Of course, I'm an Indiana resident too, but not in the part of the state where this gentleman resides. I particularly enjoy his greeting to customers when he asks them to "wipe their feet on the rag as you come in, please" -- which turns out to be a UN flag. A very funny, witty man. The original thing about this militia story is he actually is creating a volunteer medical unit -- hard to fault that militia concept!
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
And He will ask you to wipe your feet when you enter his shop. LOL
Zig
IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY RIGHTS - GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY (this includes politicians)
IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY RIGHTS - GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY (this includes politicians)
I put http://www.awrm.org/ and http://www.washingtonstatemilitia.com/ in my favorites off one of these posts a long time ago.
I checked around here (Jax, FL.) for a Militia, but the nearest one I found was in GA.
I support your cause and one day, hopefully be part of it.
I want to change the Government, not violently fight against it. Only Violently Protect in from all Foreign and Domestic Enemys.
But a "ready at moments" notice Militia is a must.
Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
Who's " talking like The Law again"?
He means LTS is talking like The Law again.
It's pretty obvious now. He has the spelling ability of your average chimpanzee, and uses the same random punctuation and 3rd grader-eque insults.