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SWAT Teams

mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
edited March 2002 in General Discussion
I know I've asked something like this before, but I've just recently switched majors and plan to pursue becoming a police officer and becomming part of a SWAT team.

Do the qualifications and requirements change with each SWAT unit or are they the basic same. Can anyone give me a basic idea?

For a degree I plan on getting a B.S. in Criminal Justice from Syracuse University. Should this be sufficient? Any info anyone has would be greatly appreciated.
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    mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    This is targeted at any other LEO's on the forum but also for anyone who cares to offer their thoughts.

    Does your agency have a SWAT unit and what are your thoughts on SWAT units?
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    mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Could someone please enlighten me as to the purpose of the camo gear, face paint, balaclavas, and other seemingly useless stuff that I see the SWAT teams wearing. Most of them are being deployed in urban environments so camo would seem to make them more, rather than less, visible. And just what is the purpose of the balaclavas? Most of these costumes seem to be just "super macho" affectations.Mudge the unimpressed
    I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS!
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    5db5db Member Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The offered reason is to protect their identity as well as intimidate the intended bad guys. From what I've seen they are wearing Black, not camo. Meeebe, your seeing DELTA guys...
    If you have one shot...Accu-Shot Website
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    gunpaqgunpaq Member Posts: 4,607 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I used to love those DOT SWAT guys in the chicken coupes. I often wondered why a SWAT uniform, mirrored sunglasses, combat boots, and a 9mm Beretta was necessary equipment to inspect a truck....INTIMIDATION!
    Pack slow, fall stable, pull high, hit dead center.
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    v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wanna be macho men. Real cornball. Too much Hollywood influence. Inappropriate for the job. Very irritating.
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    salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Funny that this topic comes up now. Last weekend, my wife and I took a trip to Lancaster County, PA. When we got to the toll booth, there was a state trooper hiding behind the booth. I saw him as we were pulling up. He did not want me to see him, because he wanted to take a look at my stickers to make sure I was up to date and "in compliance". If I saw him earlier, I could have driven to another booth.Anyway, when I pulled up to the booth, I waved to the Trooper, and he said in a manner that I perceived as uncharacteristic of a state trooper, "Hey hows it going?" I then realized it was my neighbor from across the street, who I did not recognize in his monkey suit, and dark sunglasses. When we drove away, my wife said "Gosh I did not recognize him. He always looks like a nice guy when I see him in regular clothes, but in his uniform he looks very intimidating."I told my wife, that you should never look at a LEO as a "nice guy", and should be cautious when they approach. Just as you would be cautious if someone who was not a cop approaches you. Dont want some cop pulling a "Louima" on me.
    Happiness is a warm gun
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    TeamblueTeamblue Member Posts: 782 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Cornball?? Inappropriate for the job?? What do you know about the job v35?? What would you suggest a SWAT team member wear sir, Blaze orange?? You know the truly irritating thing, to borrow your term, is when those who know nothing about a subject post here as though they do. Black balaclavas are used to give a smooth and reduced signature to the head and, if you must know, provide a degree of warmth. Not all SWAT teams work in warm weather. Oh, and wanna-be macho men? That couldn't be further from the truth. Does your job require you to wear a Level IIIA ballistic entry vest with a shock plate for rifle rounds??? Until you have been in the "stick" sir I suggest that you, and others, select another area to critique. You have got this one all wrong.
    1*
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    salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Its a "SWAT" thing, you would'nt understand"
    Happiness is a warm gun
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    elmos608elmos608 Member Posts: 124 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I know that some balaclavas are made of nomex, which can provide some amount of protection from heat and fire. That's why firefighters use them.
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    gunpaqgunpaq Member Posts: 4,607 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Teamblue, I have nothing but respect and admiration for LEOs and my post is from the prospective of Joe Q. law abiding citizen and not criticizing LEOs for doing their job. I needed the right equipment to do my job too. At some of those inspection sites these SWAT clad and armed DOT guys were down right scary and nasty no matter how clean shaven, respectfull, courtious, cooperative, patient, and forthright and open a driver was, thus the intimidation factor.
    Pack slow, fall stable, pull high, hit dead center.
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    mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Dear Mr. Teamblue.....WOW...seem to have touched a nerve. Rationalize all you want but you'll never convince me that you need camos, face paint, etc. to lie on a rooftop 100 yds away from a "perp" with your eye to the scope on your Rem. 700. As for "What would I have them wear, blaze orange?" Probably not.What's wrong with their everyday "cop suit"?I still say "AFFECTED"!Mudge the unintimidated
    I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS!
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    boogerbooger Member Posts: 1,455 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    It's much more basic folks.You can't buy exactly what you'd like to. Example: Hunters used to have either khaki or WWII military "blob" camo. Then Vietnam tiger striped style, then fast forward to Mossy Oak etc.My point is, if you need tough but loose clothes to move freely in, with a bunch of pockets, your choices are limited. Uniforms are not "voted" on but mandated from somewhere up above. The choices will either be black, camo flavor of the month or formal uniform.That's what I say.
    Them ducks is wary.[This message has been edited by booger (edited 03-21-2002).]
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    offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Money is always an issue. So is availability. Some cops choose Mini-14s rather than ARs precisely so they DO NOT intimidate the locals. For years, regular cops have been carrying wood-stocked rifles and carbines, for looks, in order not to get the voters up in arms over cop weaponry. SWAT teams are lucky to be outfitted the way they would like with stuff slightly more appropriate to whatever might come up. It's true, choices are limited, but so are budgets, for many departments' SWAT people. But I think you'll usually find SWAT in black and the national guard or other military in full camo/khaki. The usefulness of SWAT teams was proven long ago and I don't think there's much real debate about it any more, except perhaps here. Let's not forget that so long as we are the law-abiding citizens we claim to be, LEOs are on our side.
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
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    TeamblueTeamblue Member Posts: 782 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    gunpaq,It would be disingenious of me to suggest that a certain level of intimidation is not a real and effective part of the psychology aspect of SWAT operations. Believe me sir, when making an entry team members want to be intimidating for the expressed reason that it aids in gaining non-resistive compliance. That is very imortant for the safety of everyone. Despite popular opinion, the last thing any SWAT operator wants is for their to be an exchange of gunfire. The standards of deadly force and accountability do not change just because SWAT is employed in a situation. I cannot speak to your personal experience with the DOT folks. My own experience tells me that regardless of the uniform, the person beneath it and the character and professionalism inherent to that person, is what people see and remember.mudge,If I came off a a bit unnerved, then I apologize. I refrain from any personal dispersions here as they are a waste of time and unprofessional. However I do speak with emotion from time to time when I feel it necessary and will make suggestions that I feel relevant to my point. It is my hope that by posting here that others will see that my ideas come from a standpoint of reason, logic, and experience. Through this exchange of dialogue and ideas perhaps more understanding cand be fostered between us all. If I do my part effectively then maybe you can be persuaded to change from mudge the unimpressed (misinformed as I see it) to mudge the enlightened. Anyway I respect your opinion even if I don't agree with it.
    1*[This message has been edited by Teamblue (edited 03-21-2002).]
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    mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK...I got answers. If it's functionality, (ie. tough, comfortable, etc.) I've got no problem with it. I still think the face paint is "over the top" for urban situations.Intimidation, I know about. Learned how to do that once I hit 6'6" and 260 lbs. It's an acquired taste. Mudge the brute squad
    I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS![This message has been edited by mudge (edited 03-21-2002).]
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    BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    Any cop or SWAT officer who carries a less-effective or accurate weapon for the sole purpose of "not frightening the populace" should not be a cop.They should go work for Sarah Brady if they are really concerned about what people think of their weapons or uniforms.Their job is to eliminate the threat in the safest manner possible.PS: A full length bbl. AR will beat the pants off a Mini-14 at any distance.
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    thesupermonkeythesupermonkey Member Posts: 3,905 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bullzeye,Very True! But what about a low budget police force? Which is better? A Mini-14 in two men's hands or an Ar-15 in the hands of one. At most common combat distances I would think a Mini-14 should be more than adequate. Monkey
    Don't worry about the bullet with your name on it, worry about the fragmentation grenade addressed 'To Occupant'.[This message has been edited by thesupermonkey (edited 03-21-2002).]
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    v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have to agree with Dianne Feinstein's objections to militarizing local police.While some special equipment might be appropriate for raids and riots, it always was and should be confined to those special occasions only. Combat military gear and military appearance has by design, never been approved or found necessary or desireable for police attire in this country or in Great Britain. Intimidation of criminals is one thing but intimidation of the public is an affront that really should be actionable. As far as play acting "The Commando Kid" goes, if one of these school crossing guard * SWAT types in his trappings showed up in a military action, he'd be laughed out of the trenches. They look pretentious and ludicrous out of the jungle arena their outfits signify. P.S. Yes, I've been shot at and have shot back. If I had all that crap restricting my movements they might have hit me.
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    mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    v35......THAT'S what I was trying to say all along. I guess it took somebody on the "inside" to put my thoughts into words.Jolly good show Mudge the linguistically challenged
    I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS!
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    nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,018 ******
    edited November -1
    Face covering has no place if its purpose is only to conceal identity. The desire to conceal one's identity is plain old cowardice. Be a man. Show us who you are so we know who to hold accountable for your actions.Intimidation? HA! Police should not exist to intimidate the very taxpayers they are serving. If the face covering has some tactical purpose, such as a gas mask or bullet resistant mask, then wear it if you feel the need.I have a problem seeing police officers made up like ninjas. A police officer should look like a police officer, and that includes a uniform, badge, and most of all, a NAME TAG. Anonymity breeds abuse.That is one of the reasons why the Feds get by with some of their crap. They fly in troops from all over to do a job. Then, when they burn up a bunch of children or murder defenseless women, they can just get back on the plane and back to the home office.At least with local officers, there is some accountability for actions, as long as they can be IDENTIFIED. They are YOUR cops. They work for you. Insist that they look and act like police and not Federal JBTs.
    Certified SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of the General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the premier gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net Jesus is Lord!
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    badboybobbadboybob Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well said, David!
    PC=BS
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    Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hot damn, Nunn! You beat me to it again! I've gotta get to be quicker on the keyboard!
    Stand And Be Counted
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    salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    X-Ring Nunn.
    Happiness is a warm gun
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    Shootist3006Shootist3006 Member Posts: 4,171
    edited November -1
    X-ring to Mr. Nunn!! I really hate to agree with DiFi on anything but I gotta on this. W81 talks about the limited use in his area but here on the left coast they call out swat for an overdue library book if you show up in the computer as a gun owner!!! And then there is a 5% chance that they go to the wrong house at 3:00 AM to recover Huck Finn!!!!!!Enough is enough.
    Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis
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    BoltactionManBoltactionMan Member Posts: 2,048 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Some of the earlier posts contained comments about weaponry and citizens and scaring them and effectiveness, etc.Bill Jordan (the Border Guard not the camo manufacturer) was one of the best pistoleros of his day and probably any day. He made a comment I read once to the effect that the best thing the average cop could walk on the beat with was a double barreled sawed off shotgun, however, that was impracticle because it would scare the bejesus out of the local constituency.I wish they could all knock on perps doors with a tank. I wish they would all get bored from lack of work. I wish a lot of things but it ain't gonna happen.No they should not over intimidate the public but if you are doing nothing wrong, they can't intimidate you.My 2 cents. Thanks for reading.KC
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    gunpaqgunpaq Member Posts: 4,607 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Whatever happened to Andy of Mayberry? Whatever happened to Mayberry? I guess it it is just the sign of the times and I'm way behind them, I still respect authority. From polling some fellows (all pro LE & some former LEOs)at the range yesterday most all replied that the sight of a regulation uniformed officer conjurs feelings of trust, confidence, respect, and a "parental" fear (I better be good & follow the rules) as opposed to a SWAT/military clad officer which, from our little range poll, conjurs feelings of intimidation, fear, mistrust, and dehumanization of the LEO/citizen relationship. Out of five guys there only one (not a LEO) was super positive about the SWAT applications. All agreed SWAT/military clad & equipped police are absolutely necessary beyond any doubt and the negative impressions, from our discussion, seemed to come from the perception that "SWAT" is applied too much and too indiscriminately and seemingly over-react to minor situations.
    Pack slow, fall stable, pull high, hit dead center.
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    Wild BillWild Bill Member Posts: 155 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Nunn, I was surprised by your post since you are a "full time peace officer" according to your signature. First of all, the topic is SWAT officers, not regular patrol officers. Of course patrol officers don't "exist to intimidate the very taxpayers they are serving." But SWAT is a whole different animal. Very often they don't deal with your average tax paying John Q. Public citizen. They are usually only called in "when the sh*t hits the fan" (i.e. armed gunman, hostage situation, etc.). And so what if SWAT officers "look like ninjas". They are going into some of the most dangerous situations you can imagine. Situations that are often deemed too dangerous and/or risky for the average patrol officer. What's wrong with wearing black BDU's? Would you rather they wear blaze orange BDU's and a big name tag that says "Hi, I am officer friendly. Please don't be intimidated by me Mr. Gunman."?I can assure you that their outfit, whatever it looks like, is not worn for "anonymity". It's worn for concealment and ultimately, their safety. I mean come on, what good would a NAME TAG really do in an armed encounter with an active shooter? Do you think the bad guy is going to be looking at NAME TAGS so he can file an internal affairs complaint later? I think not.
    "Gun control is not about guns; it's about control." "If guns cause crime, then matches cause arson."
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    mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Nunn....well said...good show! Wild Bill....I don't agree with your rationalization of the "ninja suits" and you're arguing to the extreme. So what if they wear blaze orange? It wouldn't make them any more of a target than the jungle camos or black outfits do when outlined against a brick wall. Maybe I'm being naive here but just how is what an officer is wearing (except for a vest) going to increase his chances of survival? As far as SWAT team members versus "regular patrol" officers goes, aren't the SWAT team members "regular" officers until they are called upon to do their SWAT stuff? I'm reasonably sure that SWAT isn't the only thing they do. Anonymity...Why? I'm SURE they NEVER break down the wrong door or shoot when they shouldn't have so why do they insist on being, well...so.....anonymous?What if the "bad guys" started wearing ninja suits or camos? Nothing against the law about that. How would the SWAT guys know who was who. Now I'm arguing to the extreme. See how silly it sounds?Mudge the argumentative
    I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS![This message has been edited by mudge (edited 03-22-2002).]
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    hunter280manhunter280man Member Posts: 705 ✭
    edited November -1
    The only problem with the name tag thing is when joe perp gets out with a tecnicallity and hunts down the guy who kicked his *. That may not be to cool to find out a drug dealer has your family either. Sometimes its best to have anotaomithahs;;...whatever that word was! At least in dangerouse situations that could back fire. I don't have the answer nor do I try to, I just thought this may be something to consider.
    Though I was born to royalty, I was snatched at birth, so treat me as the noble I am!!!
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    BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    Nunn,You know I respect you.But I dont agree with the idea that a name-tag, an exposed face, and a badge automatically mean accountability.If the officer is smart enough, he can shoot me in cold blood and it doesnt matter if 100 people saw his name tag and face.In some ways, I think it's worse. Knowing the identity of the officer, and knowing at the same time that he's untouchable by the public or the courts, only adds insult to injury.When a SWAT team shows up, I think they should have some seperate uniform and weapons to indicate that the situation has now gotten so far out of control that specialists are the only ones who are going to be able to end it without catastrophe.Its like the Green Beret. They deserve some tangible symbol that they are elite.
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    Wild BillWild Bill Member Posts: 155 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    mudge - I wasn't arguing the extreme. I was arguing the facts. With some (although not all) agencies, SWAT team members are full-time SWAT members. In other words, SWAT IS all they do. And come on, if a SWAT officer "breaks down the wrong door or shoots when they shouldn't have", it isn't going to be any secret (for long anyway) who did it. Name tag or no name tag. Wild Bill - also the argumentative. :-)
    "Gun control is not about guns; it's about control." "If guns cause crime, then matches cause arson."
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