The M1 Garand...shudder.

Evil ATF · September 2001

Sigh.Several months ago, I made a comment to Beachmaster along the lines of "When you add an AK to your inventory, I'll try out an M1 Garand."Well, last I heard, 'ole Beach has got himself his own personal "Rice Paddy Special". So, as a man of my word, I'm on the lookout for a good M1 Garand. Since I know next to nothing about these rifles, I thought I come here for a little advice. Can anyone give me the skinny on this rifle? Any info would be appreciated, as I have never in my life fired or operated one of these rifles. I don't know even the most basic info. Does it use stripper clips? Is there a detachable magazine? How many rounds does the magazine hold? What do I look for in my new rifle? What should I avoid? Where's the best place to get non-corrosive ammo in bulk? Etc. Etc. Etc.P.S. Venerable Mr. Nunn, I understand that this post might be more in line with the "ask The Experts" forum, but, to tell you the truth, I think those guys smell kinda funny. I'd like to stick with my own kind. I'd appreciate the favor.

Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats. -H.L. MenckenThat he which hath no stomach to this fight, Let him depart. -Henry VI'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.MOLON LABE!

Shootist3006 · September 2001

Well Evil, the U.S. Rifle, caliber .30-06, semi-automatic, clip-fed, shoulder fired weapon, M-1 will be the star of your gun safe, all the other firearms will be green with envy (or did your de-humidifier fail?).To answer some of your questions;The M-1 uses an en-block clip of 8 rounds. Clip and all are fed into the rifle from the top by depressing on the follower arm. When the clip is fully seated, the bolt will close but be wary of the M-1 THUMB - the bolt closes with some authority. After the 8th round is fired, the clip will eject automatically and the bolt will lock open.What to look for? Too much for this medium. Try and find a CMP match and buy your rifle from the CMP (used to be the DCM - Department of Civilian Marksmanship - but is now the Civiliam Marksmanship Program). You get a guaranteed safe rifle, often in excellent condition, at a very good price.Every now and then one of the catalogue places will buy surplus .30-06 in M-1 clips, if you find it and it is made after 1954 (domestic) or about 1960 for foreign it shouldn't be corrosive.Costs a bit more than your russian coffee grinder to shoot but you get about 3 times the horsepower and twice the fun (and about 5 times the range).Good luck

Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis

simonbs · September 2001

Hey Evil,I think you're gonna be thankin' ole 'Beach for convertin' ya' after you shoot it. Enjoy.

beachmaster73 · September 2001

Of course Evil I never paid for my AK it was a gift from Saddam Hussein....you know the old saying the "Republican Guard who previously owned it didn't need it anymore." As usual shootist .30-06 got it right. Go to www.odcmp.com (Office Director Civilain Marksmanship Program). Currently there are two versions available to look at as shooters the standard grade for $500 and the ex-Danish ones for $400. Recently they have been sending out Letter-Kenney Arsenal rebuilds(10-67) with virtually brand new barrels. Most all are original Springfield Armoury. To get the Winchesters or other rare model you have to be real lucky; BUT if you send them a real nice letter with your application and tell them you intend to shoot the rifle competitively they have, in my experience, always responded with rifles with virtually no throat erosion(i.e. the Letter-Kenneys). You should be able to show the CMP your marksmanship participation required for a rifle, by either shooting in one sanctioned high power match at a CMP club or membership in a CMP club. .30-06 ammo is still readilly available from the CMP for $60 per 280 round can in 8 round clips. After you get your CMP rifle if you DON'T modify it you can shoot it in any John Garand Match around the country. If you do modify it you are restricted to shooting it competitively in high powered matches. Some of the John Garand guys at Camp Perry take it really seriously and dress out like WWII Marines and GI's. I know the AK is fun but a Garand is a whole different ball game!!! Good luck Evil!! Beach

SP Tiger · September 2001

I am waiting for my Garand as we speak. I have only shot one once about ten years ago, and I have wanted one since. Only now have I done something about it. I can't explain it, but when I pick up a Garand, I almost get chill bumps. It's such an awesome and beautiful rifle. I mean, you are holding a piece of history in your hands. Unless of course you are holding a Garand with a "newly manufactured receiver". Then you are holding a piece of sh**.

Better to have and not need, than need and not have.

Teamblue · September 2001

Evil,After the eight big Booms and "CLANG!" you will never be the same. Long live the Garand!

metz · September 2001

Evil, it is one of the finest ever made. You will not regret owning one, ever. The '06 round speaks for itself, once you get the weapon and familiarize yourself, you will find a perfect match. Harmony such as this is seldom attained. As Patton said, it is the finest battle rifle ever. You gotta watch Beach, he'll teach you something whether you want to learn or not. You will thank him for getting you to get one of these. No collection should be with out one.Andy

Lowrider · September 2001

The local Big-5 Sporting Goods store has a bunch on sale for $499.00. Claim they're in very good to excellent condition.Is that a good price? I'd like to have one myself.

MPinkston · September 2001

As SP Tiger stated, better to avoid those with the "new american" receivers which is probably what you are looking at. I was lucky enough to get mine (a DCM) at a auction at the Shooting range to which I belong. Under $600 and a low serial # (333xxx). Made in the summer of '41. Magnificent to shoot and less recoil that you might expect. You will not be sorry!

aguncollector@prodigy.net

Evil ATF · September 2001

I just checked out the DCM's website. It seems that you have to be a member of their club to get one of their Garands? Also, you hafta be a member to buy their ammo? I gave at the NRA. Is their any other way to get a slick deal on a Garand? Obviously, I'm checking out GB's current auctions, but what brands to look for? Also, can the clips for the Garands be re-used? It seems like a dumb question to ask, but they are selling for only $1 a piece on a GB auction, so I'm left scratching my head at the low price.

metz · September 2001

Yes they are reuaeable and come in 8,5 and 2 rounds. They hold the rounds in and then the clip is ejected and the bolt held open when done. A fine example is in Private Ryan when hey are making thier way up and have to put some suppressing/covering fire on the machine gun nest. Hanks is letting loose with his Tommy gun and 2 boys are letting 2 Garands rock. They dump 8 rounds and then you here the "PING" that is the empty clip being ejected. One of the cooler "gun sounds".Andy

218Beekeep · September 2001

Dang,now I`m gettin` the fever!

Will the last reb to leave flarda,please bring the flag?

whiteclouder · September 2001

Metz:The Japanese soldier also heard the 'ping'. The jungle GI soon learned to intersperse five and eight round clips. Surprise, Tojo!Clouder..

metz · September 2001

Amen, 'clouder. One thing I was thinking about is how fast reloading a Garand is. I can get 8 more in there before the empty clips stops bouncing. Never thought about it before, but that "en bloc" may be a tad quicker than a box mag.Example: Garand goes ping, grab next bloc and stuff, hopefully remove all of your fingers and begin firing. VS.Box mag, depress release drop/remove mag, insert next mag, release bolt.There seems to be an extra step or 2 in there.Anyone else have thoughts on this? I'm a box mag guy but think I may be quicker with the Garand style. I have never done anything other than target shoot with my "John's finest" all my timed stuff is with box mags. Think about it and post up with opinions.AndyP.S. I understand that the higher capacity of most box mags increases the amount of lead down range and the overall speed with which a rate of fire is measured.My question is: can you reload a Garand quicker or say an m14, AK, AR, etc. My vote is with the Garand. It's so simple and so quick........ Thoughts?[This message has been edited by metz (edited 09-06-2001).]

edharold · September 2001

Only problem with reloading is topping the rifle off with two or three rounds remaining in the magazine.

beachmaster73 · September 2001

Evil you don't have to be a member of a CMP club. You only have to shoot in a CMP club high power match one time. Heck you can take a Winchester 94 .30-30 out there. The score you shoot is absolutely meaningless. Just tell the Match Director you want proof of high power competition. He knows why you want the proof. With the documentation of shooting at a local CMP club you are on your way to your M-1. Be careful of many of the M-1's you get through Big5 sporting goods or Duncans. They are almost exclusively weapons that have been bought back from Taiwan and Korea where they saw hard use for the last 35 years. Many but not all of the imports have Blue Sky Armory(or Arsenal) imprinted on the left side of the barrel near the muzzle. Most of the CMP guns have been untouched and waiting for your fingers to caress them for the last 35 years. A DCM gun with documentation is almost always worth $75-$100 more than a non DCM gun. The Letter Kenney Arsenal rebuild I just bought had an honest throat erosion of less than 1.5....that's pretty close to a brand new barrel. Anyway Evil I have my Chinese paratrooper AK piece of whatever...you need your finest battle rifle of all time. BeachP.S. If you want me to locate a CMP Match for you in Washington it shouldn't be a real problem. A friend of mine who used to be in SDVT-1 runs the annual Fort Lewis high power match. He could hook you up for your documentation. Beach

Evil ATF · September 2001

Metz:You've just addressed my number one concern. 8 rounds? Sure, it's 8 rounds of 30.06, but it's still only 8 rounds! Granted, my AK wouldn't do me much good against a fella 800 yards away with a Garand, but what about getting up close and personal? Can the Garand stand up in an urban enviornment where the majority of engagements occur at less than 75 yards? Which would you rather have in that situation? An AK-47 packing a 75 round drum of 7.62x39mm, or a Garand sporting a clip of eight 30.06 rounds? I dunno, a wall of lead sounds awful nice. At least it'd keep their heads down while I got the hell out of Dodge.Help me get over my 8 round fear, guys! I'm too cheap to pay for a therapist!

Evil ATF · September 2001

Mr. Beach:Yes, please! Drop me a line when you get some info. I've got an old 30.06 Remmington 742 that my old man gave me for my 23rd birthday. I 'spose I could dust off that 'ole deerslayer and use her in a match!

metz · September 2001

Evil, just think through it. If your in an up close and personal environment then of course a shorter lighter higher capicity is what you want. You can stand naked at 1500 yds with one loaded Garand and wait for any 5 of the enemy to get into your competancy range and if all they have is an AK you will only suffer a sunburn and can go collect thier AK's. It's all in the use, the M1 is more powerful and accurate. It's reliability can only be tied. If youy want a bullet spitter for spray and pray then the Garand is probably not the first choice (though it will shoot THROUGH most residential buildings). If you believe in the first accurate shot wins then you should consider the Garand. It is truly that good of a weapon, I would be more comfortable with it in my hands than most. I too am an AK guy for up close and personal,but I have a great respect for the Garand. You don't charge a man with a Garand from a 1000 yds out with your AK, you will lose if he is only half profficient.Andy

badboybob · September 2001

Evil be sure to have someone show you the proper loading technique. An M1 thumb is no laughing matter. And I agree with all else said - it's a very nice weapon and a heck of a lot prettier than an AK.

So many guns to buy. So little money.

SP Tiger · September 2001

Evil, if you are worried about lack of firepower from a Garand, just add a sixteen-inch bayonet, now that's a mean looking weapon. I had an uncle fight in the Pacific theater in WWII. Someone in my family has a picture of him with a 16-inch bayonet on his Garand. When I saw that picture for the first time I knew I had to have a Garand.

Better to have and not need, than need and not have.

loan shark · September 2001

You will love the " ping ". I have 2..one is all original Winchester 99% that Ipaid way too much for and my shooter excellent condition Springfield. Some of the most beautiful guns I own and the most fun to shoot. You will not be unhappy with your purchase. Word of experience...Don't buy one of the imports. Everybody I know that has,including me, had nothing but problems. They are junk.

jonk · September 2001

Well, I aint got an M-1 Garand yet. American military surplus guns are expensive, so I"ve been focusing on foreign, mainly. I do have a Krag 98 and a 1903 Springfield... I perfer the Springfield anyhow. But rest assured, I will keep saving for the M-1 Garand, and an M-1 carbine myself.

Wenn alles richtig ist, dann stimmt 'was nicht. -Nena (When everything is going right, something is bound to be wrong.)

Shootist3006 · September 2001

Evil, while there is something to be said for extra firepower, Metz has it right. At 75 yards, the .30-06 will cut through a 4 inch concrete wall and out down the AK fan behind it! If you need to spray, get the M-1's older cousin, the M1918A1.Badboybob - yes it is. the M-1 thumb has caused millions of laughs!!!

Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis

beachmaster73 · September 2001

Shootist it is really great to have you back contributing regularly on this forum. You provide a wealth of information and humour. And yes Evil the worst experience you can ever have with an M-1 is an M-1 thumb! I still have flashbacks to my first experience, going from inspection arms to port arms on a hot day in high school army JROTC(back in those days our high school M-1's were fully operational except the senior army instructor kept the firing pins at home). Anyway I was way to slow getting my thumb out of the receiver and the bolt went at its normal speed. Ouch! Beach

mudge · September 2001

Evil..Yep, you'll love the Garand. I've been shooting one (not the same one) since 1952.I had a shooter custom built by the armorer at Arlington Ordnance and hanging on my wall is a restored a 1943 Winchester. Yes, SPTiger, it has the 16" bayonet. Truly a bad a-- looking weapon.I might suggest that if you want a truly quality rifle, contact Scott A. Duff in Export, PA. There's probably not many Garand owners out there who haven't read his books on the Garand. He also sells 'em.He's at www.chestnutridge.com Mudge[This message has been edited by mudge (edited 09-07-2001).]

jltrent · September 2001

The M1 Garands with the new receiver for under $400.00 sounds good. I know these don't and want have the value of the all orginials, but seem a lot cheaper. They say these look just like new and was just wondering if they shoot well without problems. My luck if I buy one used it will be completely worn out since I am not familar with them. I have gotten a lot of information already from the posts.

ED P · September 2001

The M1-Garand is such a part of history, you should buy one to enjoy shooting and to remember the serious history behind it while you feel the kick at the target range. The 8 round vs. 30 round dilema should not be an issue if you enjoy guns purely for their historical significance. If you own an AK, you already own one of the best guns for personal/home defense, so dismiss the "I need a gun if the sh*t hits the fan" part of you, as you already have an AK to fill this need.The M1 Garand and it's offspring played a part in ensuring you can live in a country where you can enjoy being able to go to a store and legally and freely buy an AK, an economically won trophy of an enemy.[This message has been edited by ED P (edited 09-07-2001).]

turbo · September 2001

When I was 16 years old I handled my first Garand, and have alsways liked them, the first thing you learn is how quickly you need to get your thumb out the breech when closing the lock. Having mastered that your ready for a fine experience. What I relly love about this rifle is shooting a 30 cal. wih very little recoil. No bruising, or hurt shoulder after a days shooting.I read awhile back that the Army had done some experimenting on a Garand T-50 mdl, that was clip fed, with up to forty rounds.I don't know what ever became of that, I often wondered, but if that is possible I'd buy one ASAP.It is a different experiene shooting these.

YankeeClipper · September 2001

Keep my message in hand, if any of you need to re-barrel your M-1. I had one with a bad barrel and found this vet. in CA that is a hobbest and does a fine job. I'll bet that drives Gray Davis NUTS. Short trip for him though. Thanks; JOHN ASHCROFT

pjpitt · September 2001

I will never ever give up my M1. I put a new stock on it, glassed it, had a Marine armorer smooth the trugger so there is no 'drag' and it braks clean. PURRRFECT! The rifle is much better than my eyes a/o capability. I can shoot 8" groups with it at 200 yds. Better shooters can do better. It is the best rifle ever.

gruntled · September 2001

Ping is empty, what difference would it make if you had five or eight round clips? BesidesI doubt they had them then. I believe these were developed much later to make the guns legal for hunting. I have heard of people loading six rounds in the bolt action rifles in case someone was counting shots.I wasn't too fond of the M-1, the damn thing is HEAVY.As I recall there wasn't much chance of getting a M-1 thumb while loading, it waswhile closing it when it was empty. (That's when I got mine.)[This message has been edited by gruntled (edited 10-01-2001).]

Iconoclast · September 2001

Evil, like several here, I prefer the M1 to any AK for many reasons, but I will take serious issue with you on rock 'n roll w/ 75 rds versus 8 rds semi-auto. Buddy of mine had a company(?) Sgt in Nam that ran his own indoctrination program when he got replacements. First chance he had, he'd line 'em up & offer some sort of prize to the guy who could put the most shots on target in a short period of time. One of the sarge's buddies would always take one of the newbies aside & direct him to drop to the ground & fire only semi-auto. Rest of the boys would run off 2-3 magazines, but the boy on the ground would always take the prize. It ain't who throws up the most lead, it's who connects. While there are situations where copious amounts of lead will do the job better, if the 1st Afghani Airborne dropped by for a visit, I'd take the old Garand out to welcome them to the neighborhood.

.250Savage · September 2001

"...welcome them to the neighborhood." I like that. Yes, the bloody thing is heavy, no doubt about that. At the end of the day, the GIs probably cursed the thing, but that weight helps with the recoil of a damn heavy cartridge, and no one cursed it when the lead started to fly. Got mine from CMP for $320, as I recall (just before they went to $400), love it and "you can pry it from my cold, dead, fingers". Piece of history, beautiful, sure rather go into battle with this than M-16. Did make a detachable mag version; called it an M-14, tho it took short shells. At least you can own a "russian coffee grinder" -- here in Kalifornia, Diane Swinestein hath decreed that thou shalt not own one. *Sigh*. One day.

I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.--Voltare

Patrick Odle · September 2001

We were taught when I was in basic how to avoid the M.1 thumb most of the time aquired during the act of loading. Genl Patton stated that it was the single most responsible reason for winning the Second World War. the buttstock had it been 2to 3 inches longer would have suited or fited me better,but I guess it was meant to fit all.I had a schoolmate 13 years of age that made it past the recruiters and it probably fitted him fine. They used to hold the doorsand laugh at me when I was 11 in Rives Tn.for trying to enlist. Any back to the old war horse I have fired it from 100yds. out to 1000yds with very appreciable results and don't recall ever getting maggies drawers waved at me from any yardage. A lot of the originals were changed to M.I.A s meaning that the 30-06 barrel was changed to a 308Shotgun news sells an insert that will change the 30-06 chamber to a 308 and can be removed with a broken shell extractor whichthe same company sells. Beware the M.1. thumb.

beachmaster73 · October 2001

Patrick....M1A's are the designed semi-auto version of the M-14 with detachable box magazines. The M-1 in 7.62 NATO is most generally referred to as the M-1 Navy Mark II. The chamber insert to convert the .30-06 to .308 was pioneered by the Coast Guard; and although it technically worked was remarkably inaccurate for any serious shooting. Most of the original Navy Mark II barrels were made at the Springfield Armoury between late 65 and late 67. However any number of competitive barrel makers have been making .308 barrels for M-1 for a long long time. All the best, Beach.

The M1 Garand...shudder.

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