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I got a question, maybe a problem for us...

Bubba JoelBubba Joel Member Posts: 5,161
edited October 2001 in General Discussion
Does anyone on this board know any Muslims?...My wife listens to American Family Radio. This morning, a converted Muslim, was talking about the Muslim religion...He said the American people were being fooled....He said that the Muslim religion teaches that if your not Muslim, they are in a holy war with you......He stated that we had better wake up.Are we being sold a bill of goods? Are we walking into a trap, in Pakistan and other Muslims countries?
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Comments

  • turboturbo Member Posts: 820 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bubba JKnowing anything about the muslim faith will not change anything at this stage of the game; our imediate problem in this country is to secure our borders, while there is a thorough revamping and execution of our laws; especially our immigration laws.I was shocked to hear in the evening news that, some illegals from middle eastern countries, affiliated with known terrorists had registered to vote; and I beleive that this is possible as all one has to do is fill out an application and a ballot will be automatically mailed to you. Thats how the democratic party was able to rig elections in 1996 and possibily 2001, some people went to jail for falsefying documents in getting illegals on the rolls in 1996 in Kalifornia.I have always asked this question; How or why is it that our constitution that garauntees certain freedoms and rights to it's citizens (which are all those who are born here, or have become citizens by virtue of meeting legal entry into this homeland); WHY is it that the government treat illegal's as citizens by extending the same rights to them when they are here illegally.The fact that a person is here contrary to the law, makes that person ineleigible to appeal to the law for clemency, especially if that person has entered under false pretenses, for instance student visas, apparently our colleges and Universities have been out recruiting students all over the world and have assisted them with the necessary paperwork to get into the country, and when they arrive could care less whether they attend or not; no one has bothered to check whether the students ever return to there own countries. Alot of them even start businesses.Unless our borders are secured, we are in for alot of trouble, religion doesn't matter.What matters is enforcement of our laws..[This message has been edited by turbo (edited 10-04-2001).]
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  • Bubba JoelBubba Joel Member Posts: 5,161
    edited November -1
    This is what I was saying, we already have more muslims than anyone would think....I know, not all are dangerous, but what this guy was preaching is that, if your not of the religion, your the enemy......IMHOOur borders do need protecting and I also don't want our military to walk into a trap...
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  • dheffleydheffley Member Posts: 25,000 ✭
    edited November -1
    A friend of mine who has lived among the Muslims told me that according to their Holy Book, they are allowed to lie to us and tell us anything we need to hear to deflect our attention from them, even that thet are a peace loving people. Meanwhile, everyone who is not muslim is considered an infidel. They are commanded to kill the infidels and to free the world of them. They are also taught to take over all of the countrys of the world and make it a muslim only world. They are to defend any action against any muslim with force and death to the attacker reguardless of who is right or wrong.Don't know it for sure, but if the doctor tells me, I believe him.
    Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!
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  • HAIRYHAIRY Member Posts: 23,606
    edited November -1
    I've lived in the Middle East for a number of years (Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Bahrain) and the above ideas are unknown to me. I remember vividly how the common man on the street would say how pleased they (the Egyptians) were that the Americans pushed out the Soviets (this is the 1974 timeframe). They did not refer to our aid program, military aid, etc., but said, "the Soviets don't believe in God--you Americans do." I own a copy of the Koran and, BTW, it's available in bookstores. Why not get a copy and read what the Koran actually says, rather than "second hand" opinions.
    It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
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  • Homer J SimpsonHomer J Simpson Member Posts: 89 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    dheffley, you have some good info. I have read the Koran all the way thru. I have highlighted passages that are so out there, that they would have made Hitler's Mien Kopf look like a coloring book. I'm waiting for a Muslim cleric to appear on a local radio show so I can call in and zoom him, or get a damn good explaination.Nonetheless, I have studied the Koran, and other than being struck as it's an incredibly simple religious text, boarding on vapid (and maybe made that way for simple people, BUT I HAVE TO GIVE THEM THE BENIFIT OF THE DOUBT - I'll stop shouting.) But the Koran is not re-written, unlike the Bible, which is rewritten every time some new denomination wants to spring up. There are 28,000 denominations who have split from the Catholic Church. The Muslims are at least intellectually honest, and still read the same scriptures the founders wrote/ read. Tipping a hat. Just where I'm coming from, and I refuse a debate, but will link you to those who offer proofs, very well.I'm a Catholic. I play by a heavy set of rules that were laid down by people who actually knew Jesus, not people who, 1500 years later, decided that selected books were wrong, and Jesus never really meant what he said, and eliminated 7 books from The Bible, so the theories would fit their certain axes to grind. Then the churches starting splitting into two, and two and two, until it was a mathematical probability that a holy book would become a mindless set of contradictions and faiths, until worship was wattered down into cultism and strange notions.The Koran is so simple, that it was never rewritten. They just started interpretation splitting, from day one. The Wahahtism sect is our current enemy. It started 200 years ago, and bastardized a religion. But the Koran still has some 'splainin' to do. Funny how we are so quick to ask another religion to speak with one voice, but there are 28,000 denominations who broke from Catholism, with 28,000 different viewpoints, and some allowing private, uneducated bible interpretation for it's followers. In my neighborhood, everytime a local Christian (mostly non-demoninational) gets into a snit with a pastor, shazam! Another non-demomination appears! This isn't about Christ. It's about turf rights and ego. So that's the origin and difference between mainline Christian and Muslim faiths, as I see it.No fights. I'm not gonna respond with anything less than a link that you can't think your way out of.And honestly, this fight is frustrating for me too. There are so many mainstream protestants who I really look up to and admire. Lutherans, Anglicans, Baptists (best example of a human being I know is a devout Baptist man), ect. [This message has been edited by Homer J Simpson (edited 10-05-2001).]
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  • gruntledgruntled Member Posts: 8,218 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well I think I can see where a Muslim (or a Jew) would have a problem with that. The worship of multiple deities. God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost, Mary, & a whole host of Saints."I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me."There is also this one."Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:"
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  • concealedG36concealedG36 Member Posts: 3,566 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm NOT trying to stir this pot BUT.... Does it become more clear now why a person like myself has chosen to be an Athiest? I mean, I feel like I'm looking at a bunch of crazed zealots or members of a cult when I see people all fighting for their own religious beliefs. So many religions, almost all of them believing that the non-believers (of their religion) will not go to their "heaven". Well, which one is the right one Baptists, Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.? Or, are there a whole bunch of different gods (like the ancient Greeks believed)? And, if there is only one God, does he really only allow people who practice a certain set of ceremonies and beliefs in (you touched a pig? oh sorry, you can't come in)? Come on. Religion, in my opinion, is nothing more than ancient man's way of getting over the fact that death is inevitable. For many, life is too difficult to face if they think that it is all for nothing. That in the end you end up being worm food and you do not have soul. The world has continued to believe in religions because of the same type of brain-washing that goes on elsewhere (In the U.S. we just don't teach violence against infidels). But, in essence, it's the same thing, almost all religious people believe what their parents taught them (don't see a whole lot of Catholics in Pakistan or Buddhists in Mexico).Again, I am NOT trying to stir the pot. I know that religion is a very touchy subject and I sincerely respect religious people's views (my wife is a devout Catholic). But, until I can get some evidence that is more compelling than Darwin's theory of evolution (which, to me, offers a lot of PROOF instead of saying "you must simply believe"), I am going to believe in MYSELF.
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  • He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 51,593 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    "And the lord said to Abraham, 'Kill me a son'... That is not out there? Islam is a religon of peace. Muslims are not terrorists. Terrorists are not good Muslims. Timothy was neither. When you focus on "all Arabs" or "all Muslims" your are shooting at innocents, exactly as the terrorists did here. These people are killers. Musolini was Italian, does that make all Catholics Fascists? Same principal. These people have been raised in refugee camps and in the midst of strife and have been brainwashed since they were small children, sometimes in the name of Islam. While they may believe that they are devout Muslims who are going to Allah (same guy we call Yahway or Jehovah) for there glorious role in the Jihad, they are just terrorists and killers. During WWII the official Catholic Curch looked the other way while Hitler did the genocide boogy. Probably they were afraid they would be next, the reasons are not knowable. Should we now condem every Catholic for the action of the Church? I spent some time in Egypt three years ago, just after the terrorist attack at the Temple of Hatshepsuet. There were very few tourists to be seen there. People came up to us welcoming us to Egypt, greatful that America was a friend to Egypt. Common people, poor people. It was no fraud. Long as we are talking about terrorists, when are we going to throw the radical zionists off the west bank. The Palistinians are not the only bad guys there. [This message has been edited by He Dog (edited 10-05-2001).]
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  • Andrew AdamsAndrew Adams Member Posts: 227 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Concealed, I don't really want to engage this debate with you, as it isn't productive; but let me respond to some of your assertions.The fact that every culture in the ancient world independently developed religious beliefs shows its necessity in civilization. Whether you think all religion is horse pucky or not, the fact that all ethnicities have religion is strong empirical evidence that human beings do have some need to have a system of beliefs. Whether this indicates that religion is essential to social stability, or indicates the true presence of a higher being is open to debate; but the fact is that for some reason human beings need to believe in something greater than themselves.With regard to Darwinism: anyone who does not believe that Darwins principles (mutation and natural selection) is a fool. They are scientifically testible by high school kids. (Here's how; Take a strain of bacteria that all die when exposed to streptomycin. Irradiate them for 30 seconds and grow them on a streptomycin containing agar gel. Some of them grow and eventually cover the entire plate. Therefore, both mutation and natural selection have been proven.)However, from this information, there is a great leap of FAITH that must be made to say that these two principles are the source of all life on the planet. In order to accept this, you must accept the tenet of chemical evolution, which is that all of the molecules essential to life formed randomly (despite the fact that this DOES NOT happen today) and formed in such close proximity to each other that they could be surrounded by a membrane and form the first organism. It is much more logical, and easier for me to believe, that an all knowing being who created life would ingrain mechanisms that allowed his creations to survive a changing environment. Seems pretty obvious to me. A gunmaker who designs a gun has a much better chance of selling it if it shoots in the rain (heat, cold, desert, snow) so it seems to me to be foolish to refuse to ascribe God properties that we take for granted in humans.I enjoy religious philosophy, and enjoy discussing it, even though almost nobody with a formed opinion changes through argument. Nonetheless, I am a born again Christian, and realize that my commission requires me to try. My strengths are in intellectual discussion, so I will not quit trying.
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  • whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Below is a snippet from my book. A family of Mormons had stayed near the house for a few days while Ana had tended one of the wives, who had miscarried. The husband had refused the others in his extended family any contact with Simon's family. Substitute for Mormon a Buddist, Moslem, Hindu, Shinto, Jew Animist, or whatever, the essence is the same.The visit by the Mormons was the topic of conversation in the Steele household and for that matter, the whole town for over a week. Simon, as he had done all his young life, listened to Paul and Ana discuss them late at night. Helping with the milking one morning Simon unloaded all the questions he had accumulated."They seem to think about God in a different way, Pa. I thought there was only one Book.""There is Simon, for Christians. Other religions have other books and they follow what's taught in 'em.""Then the Mormons aren't Christians?""Well, they can't be. The way we see God is a basic belief for a Christian. And if you don't see God that same way you can't call yourself a Christian, you call yourself something else, like these folks do. I think they want their religion to be considerd special and different.""But they think we're wrong. Are we?" Simon's young face showed genuine concern."No, Son. It gets a little mixed up. We think a person has the right to believe what they want and someone else not believing what we do don't make them wrong, only different. The Mormons don't think that way. To them, our beliefs make us both different and wrong. Do ya see what I mean about it being kinda mixed up?""So we might be wrong?" Something very basic in Simon's life was being challenged and he was a little scared."Plain honest. I guess we could be. But it's not up to someone here on earth to judge that. You follow what your mom and I have taught you and listen to Reverend Bray when you go to church. And later, I promise, you'll know what's right and wrong, okay." Paul put his hand on Simon's head and tossled the hair."So they aren't bad people?""Goodness no, Simon. Like I said they're different. And they want to be left alone. That don't make 'em bad. And them wantin' to be alone? Well--- I see that as their problem, not ours."Clouder..
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  • mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Wait a minute.....I'd like an explanation. I'd like to hear from those of you who believe in God to tell me how you can explain away both the wondrous (look at that beautiful sunset) and the horrific (the death of innocent children in a tornado) by simply saying, "God works in mysterious ways"? I've gotten really tired of hearing about the destructive forces of nature being described as the "Wrath of God". Call me whatever suits your purpose but "God" (by whatever name he's called) was invented by men to make it possible for a few to hold power over many.Mudge Yeah..yeah...I know. Now I'm really gonna' hear it.Mudge
    Anyone who CAN carry, SHOULD carry!Let me update that.Anyone who CAN carry, BETTER carry.
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  • whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Like I said Mudge, it doesn't make you wrong, only different.Clouder..
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  • He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 51,593 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Andrew, while it does appear that most humans have some drive to understand the infinite which is often expressed in religions has no bearing whatever on the existence or non-existence of a god. The two simply are not related.I have no problem with you believing what you do as a born again Christian, nor will I try to convince you that you are incorrect. I do, however, have a problem with proselytization. Simply put, proselytization is an act of moral violence. How dare you try to push your religious beliefs off on any one else? It is supremely arrogant for anyone to try to do so without being requested first. If your little light is shinning and I ask, that is one thing. To simply come to my door is quite another. I realize in this case you were "challanged" by concealed, which moderates it a little. One can be an atheist (which is really rejecting Theism and leaves much room for an appreciation of the sacred)and still be a moral, ethical person. Often more so that many professing Christians. Whether that means they cannot get to heaven is their problem not yours. To suggest that those who do not accept Jesus as their personal savior are necessarily in the hands of Satan is mythology. Christians begin their logical arguments with an apriory assumption: that god exists. It is easy then to say that the bible is the devinely inspired word of god and this proves his existence. It is also logical fallacy. That existence may be believed devoutly, but it cannot be proven. Thus, the correctness of any religion cannot be proven. You believe what you believe and I believe what I believe and I will not try to convert you. Please do me the same courtesy and we will keep having fun here on the board. [This message has been edited by He Dog (edited 10-05-2001).]
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  • concealedG36concealedG36 Member Posts: 3,566 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just for the record, I was expecting to be stomped in response to my post. I don't take any offense to any of the posts on this thread. Actually, I rarely take any offense to any posts. I have a right to my opinion, and barring offensive language, I can express it whenever and however I choose. I also know that you guys (and gals) can and do say whatever you want too.I kinda enjoy reading posts that challenge mine. Although I don't always reply, many times I DO change my opinion when given more information.So, thanks for the fun! Now I'm off to go get some salmon and scope out my hunting spot for BIG buck rubs....Have a good weekend y'all (am I saying that right? ya'll whatever. See ya!)
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  • Trader DaveTrader Dave Member Posts: 791 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Concealed and Mudge - God Loves Both of You. As I sit here and type, a smile extends over my face and the love of God fills my heart.
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  • HAIRYHAIRY Member Posts: 23,606
    edited November -1
    Remember ole Decarte's attempt (he was a Christian) to prove God existed? Well, he ended up proving "I think, therefore, I am."For those of you with a background in religion, please note the "I am" and consider its implications.
    It's not what you know that gets you in trouble, it's what you know that just ain't so!
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  • dheffleydheffley Member Posts: 25,000 ✭
    edited November -1
    I think the easiest way to start a fight is to talk about either religion or politics. The thing I don't get about the Muslims is, they have one set of rules for each other, and another set for anyone else. All of the PEACE you here of in their religion only applies to another Muslim.. None of that applies to the infidel (which is everyone else in the world). For them, it's KILL, and rid the world of them. If they could just get the "live and let live" idea that is what our FREEDOM is based on, they could go in peace with the whole world. ConcealedG36, I don't have any problem with you not believing. That's your right. I'm very happy being a believer, and I would bet you don't have a problem with that as long as I don't try to convert you. The difference is, you wouldn't get the chance to convert with them, they'd just kill you.I just don't understand how they say they are of God. Who do they think created all of man?
    Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!
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  • He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 51,593 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Muslims have the same set of rules for everyone. Those who have a different set of rules for non muslims are misguided fanatics. Infidel does not mean target it just means non-believer with the same emphasis with which Christians say "heathen" or atheist.
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  • Andrew AdamsAndrew Adams Member Posts: 227 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    He Dog,I actually agree with the vast majority of what you had to say. It is true that the existance of God can neither be proven nor disproven. Immanuel Kant showed that a couple of hundred years ago. Furthermore, to be able to prove the existance of God would be to defeat one of the main points of all montheistic religions, Faith. If you read my post carefully, you will see that I didn't attempt to prove the existance of God. I do point to some evidence for the existance of God, but I respect that there is also evidence against God's existance. The strongest piece is offered up by Mr. Mudge and is formally titled the "argument from evil."However, I must disagree with you with regard to the moral relativism that you display when you say that it is a moral assault to prosletize. I couldn't disagree more. By that standard, an individual should never be exposed to anything they find disagreeable or offensive. For example, If I don't want to see Playboy in the convenience store, then it is a moral assault on me if it is there, so remove it. Do you see what I'm getting at. You are saying that if my prosletization bothers you, then I shouldn't do it. By that standard, no one can do anything that bothers anyone else. By the same token, you are not forced to listen to me prosletize.I think the confusion here derives from a belief you have that in prosletizing, I am actually saying that you are a bad person. That may be the message of some religion, but is not the message of Christianity. The message of Christianity is that we are all bad people, but that forgiveness is offered to those who want it. I saw bumper stickers a few years ago that said "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" and it makes my point better than I can. Being a non-Christian does not make you immoral, nor does being a Christian make you moral. Most of our moral principles are derived from religion, but again it is a debateable point whether the morality comes from the religious tenet or the religious tenet comes from the social necessity of our moral principles. I would never make the assertion that you are a bad person because you are not a Christian. To do so is foolish, and also guarantees that you will never be receptive to the Christian message again.
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  • whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Adam:Couple sixpacks and a campfire. Obviously well educated and read, I think we, (collectively) could spend an agreeable evening.Clouder..
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  • He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 51,593 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    By golly Andrew for a Christian child you are downright thoughtful, educated and civilized. I believe the First Amendment guarantees the right of Playboy to be on the newsstand (though usually in plastic these days) or even Hustler, which most of us here likely find objectionable. It also guarantees you the right to believe as you do and to say what you believe. I am simply saying the intent of someone to convert me to their religion (whatever it is, but I only seem to run into Christians intent on my conversion, never Buddists, Hindus, Muslims, or others except Scientologists and that is certainly another story)is the intent to do moral violence with out the respect for my beliefs I believe we should all be accorded. If I politely decline to discuss it with you or indicate I do not which to be proselytized then you should be courteous and desist. I am sure you personally would, but in fact many do not. It is at that point I state that I believe the cannibals did the right thing with the missionaries.Clouder, I probably would not be invited, but if I was, could you make mine hot chocolate?
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  • mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    To Trader Dave......I'm happy that you're happy in your beliefs. To Andrew Adams.....When I was about 10,I got really angry with the preacher who, every Sunday, kept telling us that we were all sinners and should pray for forgiveness.Man...I was 10 years old. I hadn't done ANYTHING that I considered "wrong" or "evil" or any of the things that I was being accused of by this guy. At 10 years old, I hadn't had the chance to do any of them. From that day to this, I have firmly believed that that preacher was only there to convince the congregation that only by coming to church could we be "saved" and he was the one to "show us the way". The term "job security" comes to mind.Like I said in my previous post, I truly believe that God was invented by man to give a few the power over many. The "holy men" originally tried to control people through fear. (I give as an example, The Old Testament.) After a while the fear factor lost it's power so they came up with "love and forgiveness" i.e. The New Testament.This has been my belief for over 50 years and I've neither been struck by lightening nor "seen the light" in any fashion.For those of you who believe, if that's what you need to get through the day...good for you. For those of you who don't...good for you. Whatever your persuasion, you're still my buds.Mudge
    Anyone who CAN carry, SHOULD carry!Let me update that.Anyone who CAN carry, BETTER carry.
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  • badboybobbadboybob Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mudge I kmow God exists for I asked Him to help me stop drinking because I couldn't by myself. He did. Without His help I could not stop. If you don't believe that's ok. But when you need Him He'll be there. I too got pissed off at hell fire and damnation, believe or go to hell religious idiots. I was raised that way and want nothing to do with that stuff.
    So many guns to buy. So little money.[This message has been edited by badboybob (edited 10-05-2001).]
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  • mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    BadBoyBob.....I have to disagree. You quit on your own. If your God is "all knowing" and has that kind of control over your actions, why did he let you start in the first place? YOU chose to start drinking. YOU also chose to stop. The choice, in both instances was yours alone. If you want to give your God credit for helping you stop, you must, logically, also give him the blame for getting you started in the first place.Whatever gets YOU through the day, just don't try to sell it to me.Mudge
    Anyone who CAN carry, SHOULD carry!Let me update that.Anyone who CAN carry, BETTER carry.
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  • badboybobbadboybob Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I want to sell nothing to you Mudge, nor do I want to convert you to any of my beliefs. I did quit on my own several times but it didn't work. God did help me to stay sober. There are others on this BB who have suffered the misery of alcoholism and who have tried to recover from it but cannot do it themselves. Let's hear from them. Come on all you AA guys, speak up!
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  • turboturbo Member Posts: 820 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    There appears to be several of you herein who preport to be enlihtened about the existence or the non existence of God . And go on to use words as thought they mean the same and are interchabgeable.Allow me 1st to ascribe to the difference between two words which I have read on several occasions throughout this board.The Religious man is a man that believes that by keeping Gods comandments he can be saved.The Christian man knows that he can't keep Gods commandments, and recognizes that their nothing he can do acceptable to God, but has believed God at his word and accepted Gods offer of forgiveness.So there is a difference, undiscernible to the natural man's eye."Man confesses with his mouth, what he believes in his heart". So if you are of the persussion that claims there is no God, I know I can never change your mind; and I would never think of killing you because you do'nt believe or agree with me, but words that are spoken sometimes are so strong and impact people such, that men have been murdered for speaking what has come from their heart Jesus was murdered because he claimed to be the only begotten Son of the living God. But God raised him.I would like to put forth a treatsy supporting the existence of the Creator God (for the sake of those who profess to refute his existence); inspite of the fact that year after year you have witnessed the same Sun which He created continue to rise and set at the ends of earth day after day from your youth, And the rains falling according to the seasons as he promised.If you don't believe in the existense of God , you must then believe that (as someone have posted herein) you've descended from the apes, because life didn't begin for you with the creation, but with life springing forth from the primordial soup that collected in the pools of Darwin's imagination. How presumptive it must be to consider such a theory, because this world according to the theory of "Natural Selection""Survival of the fittest" (they all die the same in the end) in it's inception from the begining would have been void of all life, as espoused by this man (Darwin), and if it wasn't his theory doesn't wash, because he doesn't start at the begining. I say read his works and you'll find that he doesn't start at the begining his theory starts in a mid stride (a tortoise with a long neck when compared to one with short neck, is still a tortoise or a bird with a bent beak, when compared to another bird with a straight beak is still a bird), it's all those who have added to his works that have, concocted the fill in's to that which he did not speak of, and these teachings have been taught in our universities as Fact not Theory (and are believed as the gospel truth)by those seeking to be elevated to higher learning. It's because of these teachings, that this generation has come forth not only not beleiveing in God but detesting Him and those that would share his good news.Living proof that there is a Living God is found in the nation of Isreal, who today is being preserved on the earth by God as a living testimony of his existence.Consider the history of this nation, who according to Gods word "he chose as his own people", and made certain promises to their fathers, and then to them as a nation, yet to be fullfilled.This nation that had been so utterly destroyed by the legions of Rome and dispursed throughout the face of the earth, now finds itself gathered up as a nation in the same land promised to them ("a land flowing with milk and honey") among the nations of the world (no other nation has ever been raised from its rubble after disaapearing from the seen of history (1900 -yrs)as this nation) will continue to be the center of attention on the world seen. The reason why the muslim countries in the world so utterly hate the United States is because, this nation supports Isreal today, and the US supports Isreal because of it's faith in the God of the Bible. But, the day is fast approaching when another generation will take the reigns of this nation who know not God, and will end it's support for Isreal, it is then that the prophecy "I will bless them , that bless you, and curse them that curse you" will have been fufilled for us as a Nation.Since God is sovereign, it is only right that he fulfill his word, as a testimony to his faithfulness, it is no secret as to why he has revived Isreal as a Nation; it is because he could never fulfill his promises to them as a nation if they were not a Nation; for he has said "in the latter days I will visit you and bring to pass that which I have promised", as for those who have put their faith in him, they also, have promises that are yet to be fulfilled, and this is why we live with a hope, that transcends this life and are willing to share are faith with those that believe not, or with those that would claim to know him but do not believe his word.There is a day coming when ALL the nations of the world shall stand against Isreal, and then will GOD FIGHT FOR THEM. I expect to see this in my remaining life, for these are exciting times for us, the fulfullment of promises made to all who believe.Remember this is the same God whom the founders of this nation sought in the hour of need.Respectfully, a fellow citizen [This message has been edited by turbo (edited 10-06-2001).]
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  • rodgergliderodgerglide Member Posts: 184 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Alright BBB.."do you believe,or are you willing to believe in a power greater than yourself?"...for me the "group" was my Higher Power for awhile until I formed a working relationship with God..not Jesus,not Mohammed,not Buddah,not even Krishna...but it works for me...that and helping others.Every day I do not take the first drink means another day I might help someone else. Bill W. nailed it didn't he?
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  • mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I am more willing to believe Darwin (even with the "gaps" in his theory) than I am to believe in some "almighty power" that decided one day to make a human and "poof" there was a human.We'll just have to agree to disagree.I'm outta' here 'cause I can see this is accomplishing zippo. You have yours. I have mine. Lets' all go away happy in our individual beliefs.Mudge
    Anyone who CAN carry, SHOULD carry!Let me update that.Anyone who CAN carry, BETTER carry.
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  • He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 51,593 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hey Badboy, however it happened, whatever you believe, Good For You Pal, I am proud of you!
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  • Andrew AdamsAndrew Adams Member Posts: 227 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Turbo,You caught me. I wasn't being as precise as I should have been. Your definition of religious vs. Christian is actually right on. I would only add that religion is the attempt by man to ritualize the divine.Mr. Mudge,You are absolutely right. The hell-fire and damnation message has driven more people away from Christianity than any other thing. If you ever find yourself in Franklin, PA on a Sunday morning, drop by Abundant Life Fellowship Church around 10 (Dad's Church) and I guarantee you'll hear another point of view. My Dad was also driven away from the church by that message and spent ten years running before he truly got it, and realized that the problem wasn't with Christianity, it was with the religious folks who interpreted the message as hell-fire and damnation. Any time someone tells you that God frowns on dancing, playing cards, watching TV, etc. they are trying to force their brand of religion down your throat, not expressing the central message of Christianity.
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  • Patrick OdlePatrick Odle Member Posts: 951 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    the muslim faith regards us as infidels and the hijackers who murdered the innocents 9-11regarded us as ignorant infidels. there are those among that faith that will clasp thier hands bow their heads and fool the gulibel. why do we bomb at night and drop aid to the enemy by day?.
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  • turboturbo Member Posts: 820 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've heard the president say several times; "Our fight is not with the Afgahnistan people, but against those that harbor and support terrorism".The people of Afgahnistan are held captive by their own religious tyrants.The hard ships being brought upon the people, because of these military operations require a nation making such claims, to assist the innocent, (it's not like the people voted in the Taliban in to power), and because we are a compassionate people who does not desire to bring further suffering to those that have no control over their future that our country will try to ease the suffering and hunger`which will befall all caught in these actions. Whether we drop food care packages to them at night or during daylite hours, what does it matter.As for the military operations, it's stands to reason, night time would minimize civilian casualties. That is good.I've read several posts on this thread that disturbe me, especially those claiming to have read the koran (Qu ran) and in the same sentence elevate these writings to the Bible, and even go further to equate Allah, Buddah, Bahrain, and others to the God of the Bible. The fact that anyone who steps up and states I have read the koran and the Bible, (assuming they have done with a critcal mind and have understood what they have read), and then would state that these two books lead to the same God, expose themselves to ridicule.Islam's earnest goal, set forth in the koran (hadith version) is "to bring all mankind into submission" (this is the meaning of Islam) and to kill or ensalve all "infidels" or unbelievers in Allah and Muhammad, his prophet (surah 2:190-192;4:76;5:33;9:5,29;47:4) obedience to the koran and Muhammad's example is the driving force behind most terrorism today.Allah who suppodsedly inspired Muhammad is naively accepted today by westerners as the God of bible, however Allah has no son, nor is one even remotely mentioned in the koran and furthermore rejects the Trinity(surah 4:171)Allah tells muslims "take not the Jews and Christians for friends...slay the idolators (infidels) wherever ye find them....Fight against those who...believe not in Allah nor the Last Day" (surah 5:51;9:5,29,41)This version of the koran attests to the truths of the Bible for instance, "Christ" is called the Word of Allah, and speak highly of Him that "He was born of Mary a Virgin" (surah 3:45-47;21:91,)He (Christ) is the highest example (43:57) and, He (Christ) alone is called "Isa" which means Savior (surah 3:45).Whereas Muhammad was unable to perform miracles, Christ did so, (surah 2:252-3;3:49) and unlike others such as Moses who did miracles at God's command, Jesus performed miracles on His own initiative (surah26:63), even raising the dead (surah 3:49;5:110;36:78-79) Furthermore, the koran declares that Muhammad was a sinner (surah 9:43;40:55;47:19;48:2;294:1-3) but Jesus was sinless (surah 19:17-19), in spite of the honor and reverence accorded Jesus, the Jesus of Islam however is not the Jesus of the Bible but "another jesus" (KJV 2 Cor 11:4)It's one thing to speak of that which is factual, which can be verified by the historical record, but it's altogether another matter to post or speak ones own opinions and presumptive thoughts, in spite of writtn facts.I urge you who believe such these things, to reconsider and read the Bible, where the truth may be found.As for others herein that believe the God of the Bible or his people desire to kill you, you are misinformed. The God of the Bible wants men to know him (Jer 9:24) knowledge is essential to salvation (Jn17:3), Jew's are His chosen people as are all those who believe and have accepted his promises (Ex6:7,Lv 20:26; 1Chr 16:13;Ps 105:6, Rom 8:16,21;Gal3:26;Eph1:5;5:1)The God of the Bible does not want to convert anyone by force.Those of us who believe are compeled to share this good news to all that will hear.not because we want to be exalted but because of the sacrifice which he made on our behalf.It's a fact that Jesus Christ walked this earth` and was murdered for his claim to being the only begotten Son of God. God raised Him as a testimony of his love for you and for me. [This message has been edited by turbo (edited 10-08-2001).][This message has been edited by turbo (edited 10-08-2001).]
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  • ndbillyndbilly Member Posts: 1,573 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ANDREW ADAMS - Franklin, PA as in next to Johnstown?
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  • Andrew AdamsAndrew Adams Member Posts: 227 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ndbilly,Franklin is about two hours north of Johnstown. Half of this state is named Franklin, so there may be a Franklin Township closer to Johnstown, I'm not real familiar with that area of the state. The only borough of Franklin in Pennsylvania is the one I'm talking about.
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  • thunderboltthunderbolt Member Posts: 6,041 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This is AMERICA, so you guys are free to choose any religion, as God intended. However,consider John chapter 14, verse 6, "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." If this statement is true, and I believe it is, then NO ONEother than Jesus can get you into heaven.See Acts Chapter 4, verse 12: "Neither is there salvation in any other: for there isnone other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."Get a King James 1611 Bible and check it out for yourself. Jesus, the Son of God, says Heis the only way, so you better believe it.You don't have forever to get saved, but you have all eternity to regret it.
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  • jonkjonk Member Posts: 10,121
    edited November -1
    While I understand the sentiment, I am ashamed at what we did to the Japanese in that we interned them just because their former countrymen attacked us. We did not do this in Hawaii, where the population was overwhelmingly Japanese, as we needed them there. I see the same situation here. I cannot- will not- be afraid of all Muslims because of a few nuts. Here is our chance to prove Christian (and Jewish) civilizations are superior. Follow Jesus's example and turn the other cheek- to an extent. Yes, get those responsible, but follow Bush's advice and don't make all people of the Islam faith suffer.
    Wenn alles richtig ist, dann stimmt 'was nicht. -Nena (When everything is going right, something is bound to be wrong.)
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