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has the right to be raised by a mother and a father?..
So what are we going to do to get enough Heterosexual couples to adopt all the unwanted, abused, abandoned children? How many are you willing to take?
Do you find it admissable for a single woman to adopt? or what about a single man? OH! so the only criterea you want to follow is they must be hetero and able to naturally bear children?
Why do people go outside this country to adopt? Why? because of the draconian laws that are on the book, prohibiting people that might just love and take care of a child from obtaining one or the process is so lengthy it doesnt serve to do the children any good..
quote:Originally posted by BlueTic
You did not answer the question. What are the childs rights when they are born of a Mother and a Father?
Children's rights? How can you actually debate that?
I am sure if you asked a child if they would rather be shuffled around an orphanage, and foster home with a higher percentage of abuse, and insecurity surrounded by straight people, or have a loving home with someone who doesn't "fit the mold of normalcy" they would choose the latter.
My standards, nor yours are a litmus test for people to pass in order to justify their existence, or right to have a family.
There are many "straight" parents through nature who are incapable of having children on their own, does this mean they are not allowed to raise children either?
Plese do provide evidence that homosexuals have been raising children throughout history (sucessfully). Your last line in your reply needs also some proof that we are "Johnny come Lateley". You can't just throw out a curve ball like that.
No - you don't want to debate the childs right. That child has the right to be raised as they were brought in to this world - not by what YOU think is best for everybody.
Your last question is bogus - We are not talking straight want-a-be parents.
Homosexuals Raising Children Doesn't Make Them Gay!
Heterosexual children raised by homosexuals could no more become homosexual than a brown-eyed child raised with blue-eyed parents would eventually become blue-eyed. As reported in USA Today 8/16/94 Gay men likely to raise heterosexual sons .
Why is it that nearly every homosexual child was raised in heterosexual homes where heterosexuality was not only the norm but expected and encouraged?
Regardless of the home environment, people are the sexual orientation they are and home influences will not and cannot change that anymore than it could cause one to change eye color.
I have to leave now, but later I will post some history on Gays raising children through out history
quote:Originally posted by BlueTic
No - you don't want to debate the childs right. That child has the right to be raised as they were brought in to this world - not by what YOU think is best for everybody.
Your last question is bogus - We are not talking straight want-a-be parents.
The rights of the child as you describe them are your own personal prejudices. This "right" that you write of is nothing more than your own sense of morality that adheres to your belief system
I guess you could argue that children have the right not to be raised by abusive parents, alcoholic parents, drug abusing parents, neglectful parents, etc. Wouldn't you agree that using your line of thinking that all the above are rights the child should have? So who would be left to raise all these children after these parents that do not have the right to raise them have to turn them in?
I agree that if they were acceptable as foster parents they certainly should be able to become the parents in this "individual" case,.....especially considering the time involved in the relationship.
Personally the whole subject is not that important to me, but I DO find it hard to believe that a child,......especially a very young child, could not be confused, or influenced by being raised by gay parents.
Be real folks. Young children learn virtually everything from watching the adults around them at an early age.
Liberals will simply say that this will make them "accepting" of the lifestyle,.......I think it breeds "familiarity", and most humans do not care much for change. That is how I believe it could have a definite influence in the formative years of a childs life, that may show up later on.
Who really knows?
I have heard the "psychos" say that every young person has homosexual fantasies, or an experimentation phase.
I call BS,......maybe some, but certainly not all.
Overall a very bad idea IMHO, if this is meant to become the regular course of things.
For this one situation, I see no problem.
The biggest issue for me would be choosing between a "gay" couple that behaves in front of the children per se, and lets them decide for themselves,............and the "flamers" that live 24/7 based on being gay. Those are the ones I despise myself, and certainly don't believe children belong around them.
Things just keep getting worse though in terms of the moral state of things in this country.[xx(]
"Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here." - William Shatner
Mark: As we have been debating this issue a program was on TV about two men that had two children in their care, one was already adopted and they were fostering the other one. When they took the last one in he was catatonic, and now is a very normal little boy. They appeared in adoption court and the adoption of the second little boy was made legal and the Little boys reply was "Well its about time" . Now the clincher on this story is that both little boys are of a minority race and the two men are of a majority race. These two boys are in a loving environment with all the care and love in the world from the two "Fathers" Would anyone deny this right to these two children????
This story was on the medical channel , channel 20 , and the judge said some children are raised by two dads, some by two moms, some by one dad and one mom, and some by many moms and one dad, and as long as it is a loving caring home, the children benifit..
quote:Originally posted by Classic095
Mark: As we have been debating this issue a program was on TV about two men that had two children in their care, one was already adopted and they were fostering the other one. When they took the last one in he was catatonic, and now is a very normal little boy. They appeared in adoption court and the adoption of the second little boy was made legal and the Little boys reply was "Well its about time" . Now the clincher on this story is that both little boys are of a minority race and the two men are of a majority race. These two boys are in a loving environment with all the care and love in the world from the two "Fathers" Would anyone deny this right to these two children????
This story was on the medical channel , channel 20 , and the judge said some children are raised by two dads, some by two moms, some by one dad and one mom, and some by many moms and one dad, and as long as it is a loving caring home, the children benifit..
Larry,......see this part of my last post:
"The biggest issue for me would be choosing between a "gay" couple that behaves in front of the children per se, and lets them decide for themselves,............and the "flamers" that live 24/7 based on being gay. Those are the ones I despise myself, and certainly don't believe children belong around them."
Other than that, I personally do not have a problem, as I realize there are many kids that need a home.
You will find this surprising from me, but I have never become part of the far-right anti abortion issue either.
I have asked many times of the dolts around here that hang outside the big Catholic churches with the gory signs,..........how many of YOU, are adopting unwanted children, and how many are willing to pony up to take care of millions more if abortion is made illegal.
I do not like abortion based on principle, but there are many circumstances that must be considered.
Life today is simply screwed up, and I try to not let most of it get to me.
I leave it up to each individual to make their choice on those issues, and I just stay out of it all.
I DO stand by my initial statement that I copied.
"Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here." - William Shatner
So lets go to Wikapedia -
"The exact proportion of the population that is homosexual is difficult to estimate reliably,[3] but most recent studies place it at 2-7%.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]"
Population of America (mid 2005) 305,186,613
Average # of Homosexuals 4.5% 67,819,247
So lets change everything for 2-7% of the population of which how many want children?
quote:Originally posted by BlueTic
So lets go to Wikapedia -
"The exact proportion of the population that is homosexual is difficult to estimate reliably,[3] but most recent studies place it at 2-7%.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]"
Population of America (mid 2005) 305,186,613
Average # of Homosexuals 4.5% 67,819,247
So lets change everything for 2-7% of the population of which how many want children?
No sir, I do not avocate changing laws for 2-7% of the population, you do. You believe that it is correct to draft legislation making it illegal for this segment of the population to adopt.
Yes - I do Chaosrob.
And you still did not answer the original question.
If a child is born of a mother and a father - do they have the right to be rasied by a MOTHER and a FATHER without society experimenting with their lives based on the wishes of 2-7% of the population? That is a valid question that you refuse to answer without pointing to liberal opinion on morality.
quote:Originally posted by BlueTic
Yes - I do Chaosrob.
And you still did not answer the original question.
If a child is born of a mother and a father - do they have the right to be rasied by a MOTHER and a FATHER without society experimenting with their lives based on the wishes of 2-7% of the population? That is a valid question that you refuse to answer without pointing to liberal opinion on morality.
Your question does not have a clear cut answer. You can resort to calling me a lib all you want, it changes nothing.
If a child is born to a Mother AND a Father chances are they will not be up for adoption anyway. You throw those words around like they are an absolute, and they are far from t. It takes much more than impregnating a woman to make a father, and far more than carrying a child to make a mother.
It is obvious that you are very opinionated on this point, so I will bow out feeling I have made my stance very clear whether you agree with it or not.
The economy is in the crapper, we are set for the largest battle for our rights in our countries history, and are fast losing the advantages our country has held over most others quickly. I can think of far more important topics to debate, and spend my energy on.
Personal biases aside I look forward to standing shoulder to shoulder with you on the make or break issues that are coming down the pipe for us all that have actual long term repercussions. Happy thangsgiving, and god bless you and your family
So somebody answer the simple question. Children are born of mothers and fathers - do children have a right to be raised by a mother and a father? Yes or no?
Of course they do tic. I don't think it's a right as in a constitutional sense but more like they deserve it. Technically children do not have rights until 18 I believe.
Todays society is so warped people think it's ok to be gay and for gays to adopt children. Thus the need to make laws to educate some that think this is ok/normal.[xx(]
quote:Originally posted by BlueTic
So somebody answer the simple question. Children are born of mothers and fathers - do children have a right to be raised by a mother and a father? Yes or no?
Yes,........but as Hunter stated, they have no rights, and certainly not Constitutionally based.
This type of society simply did not exist when the Founders wrote the documents.
If one is against gay adoption,.....then they also need to fight to stop gay foster parents IMHO.
This is a very troublesome topic, and goes against all I believe in.
That is why certain things I leave between the individual, and their maker, as I can do nothing about their choices.
I will repeat once more,.......I wish the "folks" with the high attitudes would become part of the solution. You can't sit and say, "I don't agree with that", and not be part of a solution of some sort.
I have ZERO desire to adopt kids, so since I am not part of a solution, I don't pretend to have all the answers to the problem.
Some of you should think of it that way for awhile,....maybe?[;)]
"Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here." - William Shatner
As you might have guessed I am totaly against Gay fosters.
Children have inherent rights - I'm not talking constitutional - did I say constitutional?
I am part of the solution - They (gays) are the problem. They created the problem by saying they deserve the right to raise children. Nature gives that right - not some liberal feel good experiment catering to those who define themselves by how they have intercourse.
Again that is 2-7% of the population.
And Yes - I believe they will promote an alternative lifestyle to the children they adopt or foster. Children learn from the environment they are in - oh my God - I don't have a liberal sanctioned study to quote from on that, because they have not had a chance to make that experiment.
quote:Originally posted by BlueTic
As you might have guessed I am totaly against Gay fosters.
Children have inherent rights - I'm not talking constitutional - did I say constitutional?
Then you need to start a movement to change that by amendment!
I would go along with you.
Things are what they are, and you cannot simply make-up your own laws along the way.
Since you edited,......I will edit.
I agree with you in principle. A law is needed to make either situation "illegal", and folks that feel this way need to step up to the plate if you want to dictate abortion, and gay adoption.
I DO NOT want to adopt kids.
Someone must, if both scenarios stated above came to fruition.
"Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here." - William Shatner
So you are saying that the only way to define rights is to look at a piece of paper? But there are those that are saying children have the right to be in a loving home/environment - is that false? What piece of paper is that written on??
quote:Originally posted by Hunter Mag
BT replace the word "right" with "deserve(s)"
Jim,......I think you know me well enough to have an idea of what I stand for. I agree with your change above fully.
When has anyone ever gotten what they "deserve?"
Did I deserve a father that was part of my life?
I believe I did, but that didn't happen for me like it did for you.
My life has gone on untroubled by that fact.
OK,.....we do away with abortion theoretically which I personally do not favor. How many millions of abortions per year?
I don't know these numbers.
Assume that 80% plus of these figures will be unwanted by their parents,.....or more likely "parent."
Many will also have serious health, and mental issues, due to the alcohol,.....drug abuse by the mother that carried them to term.
WHO,.......please tell me who is going to absorb all of these troubled, and unwanted kids?
I will man up and say there is no way, no how, that I would even consider it at this stage of life. Don't believe you would either, if my assumption is correct.
Do you want government paid for "asylums" for millions of unwanted small "people?"
With the abnormalities that would occur under those circumstances,.......expect the crime rate to double at a minimum. I am adding abortion into the mix simply because the largest percentage of folks that would be outraged by the gay issue, probably feel the same way about abortion, and the problems go hand in hand.
To finish, I do not understand gays, and never have,.....but they are out there in numbers.
I have NO gay friends, and avoid them at all costs, and always have. I know some members here don't feel that way, and that is fine.
I just can't see trying to relate to a person that is diametrically opposed to how you are.
This is why I have adopted my feeling of let it be between them and their maker, on BOTH issues.
In a nutshell,.....either come up with a solution, or get off of the "high horse" per se.
This is not aimed at you at all.
General comments on my feelings about the subject that I believe to be relevant.
I am gone now,.......off for turkey![;)]
"Beam me up Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here." - William Shatner
Freedom is being able to make choices unhindered by an outside force. Unfortunately for us all there will be neglected children from any set of circumstances. I agree with bluetic on all counts except one, it is not right to legislate your morals and beliefs in a free country. While I personally find it repulsive the fact that homos would be raising kids, but there should be no law against it. There should be laws requiring monitoring of any child placed in an adopted or foster home.
The freedom we were built on must not be lost on things such as this. Do I think fagots should have children, NO! Does that mean it should be illegal, NO!
This is a deep issue, but this is an issue where INDIVIDUAL freedom must prevail. Even though I am repulsed by the fact, I will not let that blindside our goal of a free America.
When I think of babys dying in dumpsters, trash cans, and worse; I overcome my hatred of fags. I wish any fag luck who wishes to take on raising a kid and like I said earlier, there should be monitoring of any child placed in any home, mental and medical.
God help us understand freedom, cause we all need it
Well put Marc!! Many/most "deserve good" but few receive it.
The only thing we can do is a very small part for the deserving.
I/we cannot help/solve these serious problems as a whole. It would take a massive effort by many IF it could be accomplished at all. We can be the best help by not becoming part of the problem,if that makes sense. In a world of immoral propaganda it's sometime difficult to differentiate between good and bad. Irresposibility has no excuse IMO. Most of the problems come from selfishness and greed/taking things for granted.
I know this is very basic but difficult for many to grasp.
As you know Marc I have my difficulties with my son's upbringing(without getting into details on a public form)I could easily become spitefull and with very good reason but it's very difficult to ignore spite and give him what he deserves by showing how it's a better world when people are respectfull/responsible. It takes a strong person to adhere to these principles.
The two wrongs make a right philosophy is common place but really has no place.
Have a great meal Marc and thanks for the words of wisdom.
quote:Originally posted by BlueTic
I do not agree.
It is not a constitutional right to have children. It is a right of nature. Those of you who have been liberalized and PCed into thinking every person has the same rights to a storybook family no matter thier lifestyle are trying very hard to change nature - and then only listen to those of science and academia to prove you wrong. You want studies and you want sound proof that you will ignore anyway.
I do not have to agree. Oh - lets don't look at natural selection.
Man (or humaniods) has been around this planet 1-3 million years. Just now (the last 20 years) you want to argue that we can change nature and as if in a scientific study do an experiment with our children being "raised" in a different environment.
I happen to believe that every American Citizen has the same rights as every other citizen- storybook or otherwise. That is NOT "liberalization" sir! That is guaranteed by what I consider to be the most profound literature ever written solely by Man- the Constitution of the United States of America- and I believe that dictating a choice of lifestyle for parents is wrong, illegal, and the product of forcing one person's beliefs on another- which I regard as an un-American sentiment. I see this as you saying that your opinions and standpoints are more important and right than other people's
You don't have the right to dictate what they do feel think love or want because they are gay, any more than you have the right to do those things to me if you happen to disagree with a way I live.
I mean what's next? Gay people can't be pediatricians because of your 'children's rights'? They can't be teachers? Maybe they should wear armbands, like the fascists made them do in the '30s, right? That way the kids will be safe from their evil ways, and incidentally, indoctrinated into the culture of mistrust WE want them educated in, and we can then make being gay illegal. Distrust fear and hatred will be the needed first step. Sounds good, "4th Reich" has a great ring to it! [;)]
So - Blairweescot - Answer the question posed. And no lets don't change rights to deserved. It is fine and dandy to compare me with any thing you wish - I am an American also and thank God I'm still in the majority. Answer the simple question before you chose to denigrate. If children are born of a mother and father - do they deserve the chance to be raised by a MOTHER and a FATHER.
You can believe that I am the reason that Gays cannot have children if you wish but I believe it is natural selection at its finest. If you want to change NATURE I believe that you should ask the majority for the right to have a fun little experiment with childrens lives. I think the Nazis were known for experiments against nature also.
Florida is the only state that has a ban of Gay people adopting children..
Under the following statement about Florida adoptions, who would you favor adopting a child???
Who will be allowed to adopt in Florida is a question with significance not just for prospective parents. Only two states have a larger number of foster children waiting to be adopted, said Florida State University social-work professor Patricia Lager, who testified for Gill at the trial.
About 22,000 Florida children are in state care, and more than 4,000 foster children are eligible for adoption, according to the state Department of Children & Families.
Gill, 47, never set out to challenge Florida's controversial adoption law, which allows drug abusers and felons to adopt but imposes a blanket ban on gay people. But in December 2004, a DCF abuse investigator asked Gill and his 34-year-old partner to care for two half-brothers for a few months while their parents tried to regain custody.
It became clear within months that the boys' parents would never be able to win back the right to raise them -- their parental rights were terminated in 2006.
There are people in this world that because someone doesnt believe in or are not the same as they are would deny people equal treatment under the laws. They are the BIGOTS that want to impose their morality on others and be judges of others..[:0]
Again - Call me what you want Classics.
This is not bigotry or morality.
An individual can do as they wish - If you want to be gay - be gay. But if you are Gay - don't tell me you want children. You chose to live that lifestyle so you chose to be barron and childless.
Don't run the clinical false science of gays have an extra gene - or they are predetermined at birth. I have worked with juveniles as a corrections counselor. Guess how many were abused. All of them - either mentally and or physically. Those who professed to be gay - had been mostly sexualy molested. Most were from broken homes or the parents were into drugs or the parents were downright religous freaks or the father was a sexual abuser (most with their daughters - some with their sons). I have seen a bit - but I'm not a scientist. I have seen that most of these Children tend to propigate what they recieved and it is a very hard thing to change. I've seen Children abused by foster care couples and single foster care givers. I have seen that at least half or more fostercare homes are in it for the State Money they recieve for each child and not for Love.
I was sexualy molested as a child - I know a bit about this subject.
I think I'm done Sorry to rant.
Your history was not the question, Who would you prefer to adopt an unwanted child,, A druggie, convicted violent felon, or a Loving Gay Couple that will see the child is protected and taken care of???
When one wants to deprive others of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness I have a problem with them. So what if you dont like their lifestyle, who the hell are you to tell them they cannot be parents???
It is legal for Gays to adopt in every state but Florida and that is about to end..
As for sad stories of your childhood, mine would make yours look like you were born with a golden spoon, but it isnt about me or you, it is about people, human beings that just happen to be different than you and I so therefor you want to deny them.. I dont think so...
As I said earlier, how many of these abused, unwanted children do you have under your roof, and how many are you willing to adopt??? My wife and I raised Two adopted daughters,and fostered a few from the Girls orphanage in Elisabeth town Kentucky, so dont try to tell me about abused children,, and If I were 30 years younger I would probably adopt a few more children..
If nature has decided that children are born of a man and a women - do children have the right to be raised as nature determined - by a Man and a Women?
Gays have the right to life (their own) liberty (their individual rights) and their pursuit of happiness. They have chosen to live a lifestyle that does not breed. The constitution does not guarentee you can have children. The constitution says nothing about who or who can not adopt children.
quote:Originally posted by BlueTic
If nature has decided that children are born of a man and a women - do children have the right to be raised as nature determined - by a Man and a Women? If nature kills only the parents, should the children be killed as well? After all, that's nature, right?
BTW, nature herself created persons with different sexual orientations. That has nothing to do with raising children.
You are right Hairy - that has nothing to do with raising children. Where did you get the tidbit about Gays being a product of nature - Gay Life Magazine?
quote:Originally posted by BlueTic
No redirects Hairy. Answer the question.
You are right Hairy - that has nothing to do with raising children. Where did you get the tidbit about Gays being a product of nature - Gay Life Magazine?Never heard of it because I don't read your magazines.
Do you think a person ELECTS to be gay? If so, please explain why brute animals also exhibit such behavior.
BTW, if you are a Christian, you ought to know that people such as gays are made in the image of your deity. It's gay, too. [:D]
Hairy - Hairy
Anaimals do it just like humans. Lust Hairy - Sexual exploration - call it what you want - it is all about having sex. Animals do it when there is a lack of females or they want to get thier rocks off and they don't care how.
How many humans start doing it to piss off their parents and live the culture because they want to cry out to society "Look at Me". They want to be recognized by how they F---. Then they want everybody to believe they have no choice.
quote:Originally posted by BlueTic
Hairy - Hairy
Anaimals do it just like humans. Lust Hairy - Sexual exploration - call it what you want - it is all about having sex. Animals do it when there is a lack of females or they want to get thier rocks off and they don't care how.
How many humans start doing it to piss off their parents and live the culture because they want to cry out to society "Look at Me". They want to be recognized by how they F---. Then they want everybody to believe they have no choice.Well, given that you think teenagers get involved in such activity to anger their parents, I have to admit that is a new one. Usually, teenagers don't want their parents to know what they're doing in the sexual area.
To my knowledge, one's sexual orientation is formed by nature. Do you have any sources that say otherwise?
quote:Originally posted by BlueTic
Hairy - Hairy
Anaimals do it just like humans. Lust Hairy - Sexual exploration - call it what you want - it is all about having sex. Animals do it when there is a lack of females or they want to get thier rocks off and they don't care how.
How many humans start doing it to piss off their parents and live the culture because they want to cry out to society "Look at Me". They want to be recognized by how they F---. Then they want everybody to believe they have no choice.
I agree that being queer is simply a sexual perversion for selfish sexual reasons; But unless these homos are having sex with or in front of the children it has nothing to do with anything.
I agree with you bluetic, but your cause is a lost one. We live in a supposed free society and quite simply it is their choice. Ten years ago I would have puked at the thought, I would have agreed there needs to be laws against it. As I age I realize that law is close to never the solution, and 95% of the time is also used out of context.
If not for my faith in God I would never be able to arrive at the conclusion that I have. I think the good sense God gave the child will allow it to grow up "normal", and I would rather a willing person take care of the child rather it be institutionalized and fed on taxpayers money. Not to mention the fact that raising a child can be hell at times teething for one, you wanna torture a homo? give them hungry baby...
Another thing, Hairy do not insult God it's not nice and I don't like it.
quote:Originally posted by BlueTic
So lets go to Wikapedia -
"The exact proportion of the population that is homosexual is difficult to estimate reliably,[3] but most recent studies place it at 2-7%.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]"
Population of America (mid 2005) 305,186,613
Average # of Homosexuals 4.5% 67,819,247
So lets change everything for 2-7% of the population of which how many want children?
Your math is wrong. 4.5% of 305,186,613 is 13,733,397
What of the single individual who is of hetero sexual orientation but does not have a mate and wants to adopt. Is this individual disqualified also? It really is no different than a single parent due to divorce or death. These parents can not conceive asexually so does that disqualify them?
It is not so much a MOTHER and a FATHER as a PARENT or PARENTS as the case may be.
Comments
So what are we going to do to get enough Heterosexual couples to adopt all the unwanted, abused, abandoned children? How many are you willing to take?
Do you find it admissable for a single woman to adopt? or what about a single man? OH! so the only criterea you want to follow is they must be hetero and able to naturally bear children?
Why do people go outside this country to adopt? Why? because of the draconian laws that are on the book, prohibiting people that might just love and take care of a child from obtaining one or the process is so lengthy it doesnt serve to do the children any good..
You did not answer the question. What are the childs rights when they are born of a Mother and a Father?
Children's rights? How can you actually debate that?
I am sure if you asked a child if they would rather be shuffled around an orphanage, and foster home with a higher percentage of abuse, and insecurity surrounded by straight people, or have a loving home with someone who doesn't "fit the mold of normalcy" they would choose the latter.
My standards, nor yours are a litmus test for people to pass in order to justify their existence, or right to have a family.
There are many "straight" parents through nature who are incapable of having children on their own, does this mean they are not allowed to raise children either?
Your last question is bogus - We are not talking straight want-a-be parents.
Heterosexual children raised by homosexuals could no more become homosexual than a brown-eyed child raised with blue-eyed parents would eventually become blue-eyed. As reported in USA Today 8/16/94 Gay men likely to raise heterosexual sons .
Why is it that nearly every homosexual child was raised in heterosexual homes where heterosexuality was not only the norm but expected and encouraged?
Regardless of the home environment, people are the sexual orientation they are and home influences will not and cannot change that anymore than it could cause one to change eye color.
I have to leave now, but later I will post some history on Gays raising children through out history
If the gays want children they should become heterosexual/normal.
No - you don't want to debate the childs right. That child has the right to be raised as they were brought in to this world - not by what YOU think is best for everybody.
Your last question is bogus - We are not talking straight want-a-be parents.
The rights of the child as you describe them are your own personal prejudices. This "right" that you write of is nothing more than your own sense of morality that adheres to your belief system
I guess you could argue that children have the right not to be raised by abusive parents, alcoholic parents, drug abusing parents, neglectful parents, etc. Wouldn't you agree that using your line of thinking that all the above are rights the child should have? So who would be left to raise all these children after these parents that do not have the right to raise them have to turn them in?
I agree that if they were acceptable as foster parents they certainly should be able to become the parents in this "individual" case,.....especially considering the time involved in the relationship.
Personally the whole subject is not that important to me, but I DO find it hard to believe that a child,......especially a very young child, could not be confused, or influenced by being raised by gay parents.
Be real folks. Young children learn virtually everything from watching the adults around them at an early age.
Liberals will simply say that this will make them "accepting" of the lifestyle,.......I think it breeds "familiarity", and most humans do not care much for change. That is how I believe it could have a definite influence in the formative years of a childs life, that may show up later on.
Who really knows?
I have heard the "psychos" say that every young person has homosexual fantasies, or an experimentation phase.
I call BS,......maybe some, but certainly not all.
Overall a very bad idea IMHO, if this is meant to become the regular course of things.
For this one situation, I see no problem.
The biggest issue for me would be choosing between a "gay" couple that behaves in front of the children per se, and lets them decide for themselves,............and the "flamers" that live 24/7 based on being gay. Those are the ones I despise myself, and certainly don't believe children belong around them.
Things just keep getting worse though in terms of the moral state of things in this country.[xx(]
This story was on the medical channel , channel 20 , and the judge said some children are raised by two dads, some by two moms, some by one dad and one mom, and some by many moms and one dad, and as long as it is a loving caring home, the children benifit..
Mark: As we have been debating this issue a program was on TV about two men that had two children in their care, one was already adopted and they were fostering the other one. When they took the last one in he was catatonic, and now is a very normal little boy. They appeared in adoption court and the adoption of the second little boy was made legal and the Little boys reply was "Well its about time" . Now the clincher on this story is that both little boys are of a minority race and the two men are of a majority race. These two boys are in a loving environment with all the care and love in the world from the two "Fathers" Would anyone deny this right to these two children????
This story was on the medical channel , channel 20 , and the judge said some children are raised by two dads, some by two moms, some by one dad and one mom, and some by many moms and one dad, and as long as it is a loving caring home, the children benifit..
Larry,......see this part of my last post:
"The biggest issue for me would be choosing between a "gay" couple that behaves in front of the children per se, and lets them decide for themselves,............and the "flamers" that live 24/7 based on being gay. Those are the ones I despise myself, and certainly don't believe children belong around them."
Other than that, I personally do not have a problem, as I realize there are many kids that need a home.
You will find this surprising from me, but I have never become part of the far-right anti abortion issue either.
I have asked many times of the dolts around here that hang outside the big Catholic churches with the gory signs,..........how many of YOU, are adopting unwanted children, and how many are willing to pony up to take care of millions more if abortion is made illegal.
I do not like abortion based on principle, but there are many circumstances that must be considered.
Life today is simply screwed up, and I try to not let most of it get to me.
I leave it up to each individual to make their choice on those issues, and I just stay out of it all.
I DO stand by my initial statement that I copied.
"The exact proportion of the population that is homosexual is difficult to estimate reliably,[3] but most recent studies place it at 2-7%.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]"
Population of America (mid 2005) 305,186,613
Average # of Homosexuals 4.5% 67,819,247
So lets change everything for 2-7% of the population of which how many want children?
So lets go to Wikapedia -
"The exact proportion of the population that is homosexual is difficult to estimate reliably,[3] but most recent studies place it at 2-7%.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]"
Population of America (mid 2005) 305,186,613
Average # of Homosexuals 4.5% 67,819,247
So lets change everything for 2-7% of the population of which how many want children?
No sir, I do not avocate changing laws for 2-7% of the population, you do. You believe that it is correct to draft legislation making it illegal for this segment of the population to adopt.
And you still did not answer the original question.
If a child is born of a mother and a father - do they have the right to be rasied by a MOTHER and a FATHER without society experimenting with their lives based on the wishes of 2-7% of the population? That is a valid question that you refuse to answer without pointing to liberal opinion on morality.
Yes - I do Chaosrob.
And you still did not answer the original question.
If a child is born of a mother and a father - do they have the right to be rasied by a MOTHER and a FATHER without society experimenting with their lives based on the wishes of 2-7% of the population? That is a valid question that you refuse to answer without pointing to liberal opinion on morality.
Your question does not have a clear cut answer. You can resort to calling me a lib all you want, it changes nothing.
If a child is born to a Mother AND a Father chances are they will not be up for adoption anyway. You throw those words around like they are an absolute, and they are far from t. It takes much more than impregnating a woman to make a father, and far more than carrying a child to make a mother.
It is obvious that you are very opinionated on this point, so I will bow out feeling I have made my stance very clear whether you agree with it or not.
The economy is in the crapper, we are set for the largest battle for our rights in our countries history, and are fast losing the advantages our country has held over most others quickly. I can think of far more important topics to debate, and spend my energy on.
Personal biases aside I look forward to standing shoulder to shoulder with you on the make or break issues that are coming down the pipe for us all that have actual long term repercussions. Happy thangsgiving, and god bless you and your family
Todays society is so warped people think it's ok to be gay and for gays to adopt children. Thus the need to make laws to educate some that think this is ok/normal.[xx(]
So somebody answer the simple question. Children are born of mothers and fathers - do children have a right to be raised by a mother and a father? Yes or no?
Yes,........but as Hunter stated, they have no rights, and certainly not Constitutionally based.
This type of society simply did not exist when the Founders wrote the documents.
If one is against gay adoption,.....then they also need to fight to stop gay foster parents IMHO.
This is a very troublesome topic, and goes against all I believe in.
That is why certain things I leave between the individual, and their maker, as I can do nothing about their choices.
I will repeat once more,.......I wish the "folks" with the high attitudes would become part of the solution. You can't sit and say, "I don't agree with that", and not be part of a solution of some sort.
I have ZERO desire to adopt kids, so since I am not part of a solution, I don't pretend to have all the answers to the problem.
Some of you should think of it that way for awhile,....maybe?[;)]
Children have inherent rights - I'm not talking constitutional - did I say constitutional?
I am part of the solution - They (gays) are the problem. They created the problem by saying they deserve the right to raise children. Nature gives that right - not some liberal feel good experiment catering to those who define themselves by how they have intercourse.
Again that is 2-7% of the population.
And Yes - I believe they will promote an alternative lifestyle to the children they adopt or foster. Children learn from the environment they are in - oh my God - I don't have a liberal sanctioned study to quote from on that, because they have not had a chance to make that experiment.
As you might have guessed I am totaly against Gay fosters.
Children have inherent rights - I'm not talking constitutional - did I say constitutional?
Then you need to start a movement to change that by amendment!
I would go along with you.
Things are what they are, and you cannot simply make-up your own laws along the way.
Since you edited,......I will edit.
I agree with you in principle. A law is needed to make either situation "illegal", and folks that feel this way need to step up to the plate if you want to dictate abortion, and gay adoption.
I DO NOT want to adopt kids.
Someone must, if both scenarios stated above came to fruition.
BT replace the word "right" with "deserve(s)"
Jim,......I think you know me well enough to have an idea of what I stand for. I agree with your change above fully.
When has anyone ever gotten what they "deserve?"
Did I deserve a father that was part of my life?
I believe I did, but that didn't happen for me like it did for you.
My life has gone on untroubled by that fact.
OK,.....we do away with abortion theoretically which I personally do not favor. How many millions of abortions per year?
I don't know these numbers.
Assume that 80% plus of these figures will be unwanted by their parents,.....or more likely "parent."
Many will also have serious health, and mental issues, due to the alcohol,.....drug abuse by the mother that carried them to term.
WHO,.......please tell me who is going to absorb all of these troubled, and unwanted kids?
I will man up and say there is no way, no how, that I would even consider it at this stage of life. Don't believe you would either, if my assumption is correct.
Do you want government paid for "asylums" for millions of unwanted small "people?"
With the abnormalities that would occur under those circumstances,.......expect the crime rate to double at a minimum. I am adding abortion into the mix simply because the largest percentage of folks that would be outraged by the gay issue, probably feel the same way about abortion, and the problems go hand in hand.
To finish, I do not understand gays, and never have,.....but they are out there in numbers.
I have NO gay friends, and avoid them at all costs, and always have. I know some members here don't feel that way, and that is fine.
I just can't see trying to relate to a person that is diametrically opposed to how you are.
This is why I have adopted my feeling of let it be between them and their maker, on BOTH issues.
In a nutshell,.....either come up with a solution, or get off of the "high horse" per se.
This is not aimed at you at all.
General comments on my feelings about the subject that I believe to be relevant.
I am gone now,.......off for turkey![;)]
The freedom we were built on must not be lost on things such as this. Do I think fagots should have children, NO! Does that mean it should be illegal, NO!
This is a deep issue, but this is an issue where INDIVIDUAL freedom must prevail. Even though I am repulsed by the fact, I will not let that blindside our goal of a free America.
When I think of babys dying in dumpsters, trash cans, and worse; I overcome my hatred of fags. I wish any fag luck who wishes to take on raising a kid and like I said earlier, there should be monitoring of any child placed in any home, mental and medical.
God help us understand freedom, cause we all need it
The only thing we can do is a very small part for the deserving.
I/we cannot help/solve these serious problems as a whole. It would take a massive effort by many IF it could be accomplished at all. We can be the best help by not becoming part of the problem,if that makes sense. In a world of immoral propaganda it's sometime difficult to differentiate between good and bad. Irresposibility has no excuse IMO. Most of the problems come from selfishness and greed/taking things for granted.
I know this is very basic but difficult for many to grasp.
As you know Marc I have my difficulties with my son's upbringing(without getting into details on a public form)I could easily become spitefull and with very good reason but it's very difficult to ignore spite and give him what he deserves by showing how it's a better world when people are respectfull/responsible. It takes a strong person to adhere to these principles.
The two wrongs make a right philosophy is common place but really has no place.
Have a great meal Marc and thanks for the words of wisdom.
I do not agree.
It is not a constitutional right to have children. It is a right of nature. Those of you who have been liberalized and PCed into thinking every person has the same rights to a storybook family no matter thier lifestyle are trying very hard to change nature - and then only listen to those of science and academia to prove you wrong. You want studies and you want sound proof that you will ignore anyway.
I do not have to agree. Oh - lets don't look at natural selection.
Man (or humaniods) has been around this planet 1-3 million years. Just now (the last 20 years) you want to argue that we can change nature and as if in a scientific study do an experiment with our children being "raised" in a different environment.
I happen to believe that every American Citizen has the same rights as every other citizen- storybook or otherwise. That is NOT "liberalization" sir! That is guaranteed by what I consider to be the most profound literature ever written solely by Man- the Constitution of the United States of America- and I believe that dictating a choice of lifestyle for parents is wrong, illegal, and the product of forcing one person's beliefs on another- which I regard as an un-American sentiment. I see this as you saying that your opinions and standpoints are more important and right than other people's
You don't have the right to dictate what they do feel think love or want because they are gay, any more than you have the right to do those things to me if you happen to disagree with a way I live.
I mean what's next? Gay people can't be pediatricians because of your 'children's rights'? They can't be teachers? Maybe they should wear armbands, like the fascists made them do in the '30s, right? That way the kids will be safe from their evil ways, and incidentally, indoctrinated into the culture of mistrust WE want them educated in, and we can then make being gay illegal. Distrust fear and hatred will be the needed first step. Sounds good, "4th Reich" has a great ring to it! [;)]
You can believe that I am the reason that Gays cannot have children if you wish but I believe it is natural selection at its finest. If you want to change NATURE I believe that you should ask the majority for the right to have a fun little experiment with childrens lives. I think the Nazis were known for experiments against nature also.
Under the following statement about Florida adoptions, who would you favor adopting a child???
Who will be allowed to adopt in Florida is a question with significance not just for prospective parents. Only two states have a larger number of foster children waiting to be adopted, said Florida State University social-work professor Patricia Lager, who testified for Gill at the trial.
About 22,000 Florida children are in state care, and more than 4,000 foster children are eligible for adoption, according to the state Department of Children & Families.
Gill, 47, never set out to challenge Florida's controversial adoption law, which allows drug abusers and felons to adopt but imposes a blanket ban on gay people. But in December 2004, a DCF abuse investigator asked Gill and his 34-year-old partner to care for two half-brothers for a few months while their parents tried to regain custody.
It became clear within months that the boys' parents would never be able to win back the right to raise them -- their parental rights were terminated in 2006.
There are people in this world that because someone doesnt believe in or are not the same as they are would deny people equal treatment under the laws. They are the BIGOTS that want to impose their morality on others and be judges of others..[:0]
This is not bigotry or morality.
An individual can do as they wish - If you want to be gay - be gay. But if you are Gay - don't tell me you want children. You chose to live that lifestyle so you chose to be barron and childless.
Don't run the clinical false science of gays have an extra gene - or they are predetermined at birth. I have worked with juveniles as a corrections counselor. Guess how many were abused. All of them - either mentally and or physically. Those who professed to be gay - had been mostly sexualy molested. Most were from broken homes or the parents were into drugs or the parents were downright religous freaks or the father was a sexual abuser (most with their daughters - some with their sons). I have seen a bit - but I'm not a scientist. I have seen that most of these Children tend to propigate what they recieved and it is a very hard thing to change. I've seen Children abused by foster care couples and single foster care givers. I have seen that at least half or more fostercare homes are in it for the State Money they recieve for each child and not for Love.
I was sexualy molested as a child - I know a bit about this subject.
I think I'm done Sorry to rant.
When one wants to deprive others of Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness I have a problem with them. So what if you dont like their lifestyle, who the hell are you to tell them they cannot be parents???
It is legal for Gays to adopt in every state but Florida and that is about to end..
As for sad stories of your childhood, mine would make yours look like you were born with a golden spoon, but it isnt about me or you, it is about people, human beings that just happen to be different than you and I so therefor you want to deny them.. I dont think so...
As I said earlier, how many of these abused, unwanted children do you have under your roof, and how many are you willing to adopt??? My wife and I raised Two adopted daughters,and fostered a few from the Girls orphanage in Elisabeth town Kentucky, so dont try to tell me about abused children,, and If I were 30 years younger I would probably adopt a few more children..
If nature has decided that children are born of a man and a women - do children have the right to be raised as nature determined - by a Man and a Women?
Gays have the right to life (their own) liberty (their individual rights) and their pursuit of happiness. They have chosen to live a lifestyle that does not breed. The constitution does not guarentee you can have children. The constitution says nothing about who or who can not adopt children.
If nature has decided that children are born of a man and a women - do children have the right to be raised as nature determined - by a Man and a Women? If nature kills only the parents, should the children be killed as well? After all, that's nature, right?
BTW, nature herself created persons with different sexual orientations. That has nothing to do with raising children.
Did you conveniently forget that?
You are right Hairy - that has nothing to do with raising children. Where did you get the tidbit about Gays being a product of nature - Gay Life Magazine?
No redirects Hairy. Answer the question.
You are right Hairy - that has nothing to do with raising children. Where did you get the tidbit about Gays being a product of nature - Gay Life Magazine?Never heard of it because I don't read your magazines.
Do you think a person ELECTS to be gay? If so, please explain why brute animals also exhibit such behavior.
BTW, if you are a Christian, you ought to know that people such as gays are made in the image of your deity. It's gay, too. [:D]
Anaimals do it just like humans. Lust Hairy - Sexual exploration - call it what you want - it is all about having sex. Animals do it when there is a lack of females or they want to get thier rocks off and they don't care how.
How many humans start doing it to piss off their parents and live the culture because they want to cry out to society "Look at Me". They want to be recognized by how they F---. Then they want everybody to believe they have no choice.
Hairy - Hairy
Anaimals do it just like humans. Lust Hairy - Sexual exploration - call it what you want - it is all about having sex. Animals do it when there is a lack of females or they want to get thier rocks off and they don't care how.
How many humans start doing it to piss off their parents and live the culture because they want to cry out to society "Look at Me". They want to be recognized by how they F---. Then they want everybody to believe they have no choice.Well, given that you think teenagers get involved in such activity to anger their parents, I have to admit that is a new one. Usually, teenagers don't want their parents to know what they're doing in the sexual area.
To my knowledge, one's sexual orientation is formed by nature. Do you have any sources that say otherwise?
Hairy - Hairy
Anaimals do it just like humans. Lust Hairy - Sexual exploration - call it what you want - it is all about having sex. Animals do it when there is a lack of females or they want to get thier rocks off and they don't care how.
How many humans start doing it to piss off their parents and live the culture because they want to cry out to society "Look at Me". They want to be recognized by how they F---. Then they want everybody to believe they have no choice.
I agree that being queer is simply a sexual perversion for selfish sexual reasons; But unless these homos are having sex with or in front of the children it has nothing to do with anything.
I agree with you bluetic, but your cause is a lost one. We live in a supposed free society and quite simply it is their choice. Ten years ago I would have puked at the thought, I would have agreed there needs to be laws against it. As I age I realize that law is close to never the solution, and 95% of the time is also used out of context.
If not for my faith in God I would never be able to arrive at the conclusion that I have. I think the good sense God gave the child will allow it to grow up "normal", and I would rather a willing person take care of the child rather it be institutionalized and fed on taxpayers money. Not to mention the fact that raising a child can be hell at times teething for one, you wanna torture a homo? give them hungry baby...
Another thing, Hairy do not insult God it's not nice and I don't like it.
So lets go to Wikapedia -
"The exact proportion of the population that is homosexual is difficult to estimate reliably,[3] but most recent studies place it at 2-7%.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]"
Population of America (mid 2005) 305,186,613
Average # of Homosexuals 4.5% 67,819,247
So lets change everything for 2-7% of the population of which how many want children?
Your math is wrong. 4.5% of 305,186,613 is 13,733,397
What of the single individual who is of hetero sexual orientation but does not have a mate and wants to adopt. Is this individual disqualified also? It really is no different than a single parent due to divorce or death. These parents can not conceive asexually so does that disqualify them?
It is not so much a MOTHER and a FATHER as a PARENT or PARENTS as the case may be.