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Missing Ser#
TOOLS1
Member Posts: 6,133
A friend of mine is an Auctioner. And he took Two revolvers as part payment in an estate auction. After he got them home and was looking them over, He noticed that the ser# was scratched off on one.
Is this illeagle? And if so any sugestions on how to handle it?
Thanks Tools
Is this illeagle? And if so any sugestions on how to handle it?
Thanks Tools
Comments
I opened a thread like this,
when I first came to GB.
It was about 50/50 on turning them in,
or not.
ha,ha,ha,I still remember some of the responses:
Leeblackman said somethin like: "Dude,trick it out
and make a killer utility rifle out of it!"
Sorry lee,I had to paraphrase a little,
but it was close,and when you said it,
it was damned funny..and I still remember it about once or twice a month and laugh my * off.
Then there was nunn: "Been there ,done that.Destroy the receiver,sell the parts"
.218
If I'm wrong please correct me, I won't be offended.
The sound of a 12 gauge pump clears a house fatser than Rosie O eats a Big Mac !
What he said.
A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand
You don't have to have knowledge that the item is stolen. It also doesn't matter that the serial number had been rendered illegible before you got it. Just having an item with the serial number removed in your possession is a violation and can cause you serious difficulties.
Beware when you buy second hand goods.
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
Tools, tell your friend to call the cops and tell them he has an illegal gun, that way they can use him as an example of how their project safe neiborhoods is working to rid society of the hardened criminals that are destroying America... Give me a break, either keep it and risk loosing everything over a piece of *, destroy it or disassemble and sell for parts. I wouldnt call the feds or the cops unless you have a trusted friend or relative who can help you out... Good Luck!
Almost forgot, saw posted on here the other day where some radio stations were giving away free tennis shoes for guns, might try that...lol...
When Clinton left office they gave him a 21 gun salute. Its a damn shame they all missed....
Edited by - 4GodandCountry on 08/01/2002 12:14:11
- Life NRA Member
"If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
If he doesn't have a receipt, or witnesses to the transaction willing to testify in his behalf, I'd suggest avoiding contacting the authorities. In a "perfect world" his own "good name" and "honorable action" in turing in the gun in to the authorties would protect him. But we don't live in a perfect world, and with the number of Feds and local police and prosecutors who are irrational and anti-gun, I wouldn't "risk" turning it in.
It's a shame to have to say that; the gun could help solve a crime--maybe even some murder; but I won't risk "doing the right thing" if the risk of being "hassled" for doing it is high.
"Not as deep as a well, or as wide as a church door, but it is enough."
I still have the 37A and never fired a box of shells thru it. I even have the remaing 23 of 25 rounds of shotgun shells i purchased with it.
Over the years the stock has shrunk and doesn't fit right in the receiver leaving a lot of play. Maybe this is another reasons they wouldn't ser. no. the guns-bad stock wood.
I don't know but if he turns in a hot gun into the BATF, they just may keep him on a watch list. I would destroy the receiver and sell the parts as mentioned in one of the above statements. I am sure yor friend would not enjoy a 4 am wake-up call by the feds who just wanted to drop by and say hello,destroy the house,terrorize his family and confiscate his guns just for the hell of it.
Most auctioneers I know have a federal license for firearms. If your friend does then he might get in more hot water than one would think considering the low life tactics of the BATF-JMHO!
Edited by - alledan on 08/01/2002 13:24:04
When Clinton left office they gave him a 21 gun salute. Its a damn shame they all missed....
rodney colson
1. Getting pulled over, the cop obtaining some sort of probable cause to search or getting "stopped and frisked", and the gun being found in his possesion. The phrase that comes to mind is "Yeah, yeah...tell it to the judge."
2. Getting caught in a legal nutroll over possesion of the gun while turning it in to determine legitimacy and how the ATF handles it.
The best bet would be to return the gun, and obtain payment for services rendered. Get away from a bad deal before it becomes worse, and before he gets screwed over for a crime he didn't really commit or have any intent to commit. Why lose your rights and become a felon because of that type of circumstance.
Reserving my Right to Arm Bears!!!!
Eric S. Williams
Obviously your friend is not familiar with guns.
I agree completely w/ offeror.
I disagree w/ boeboe. You state that you are a member of the
ASTM but offer incorrect advise. Acids will never pull up a number.
X-rays sometimes will reveal a no. Dye Penetrant does not work in this case. I know the answer, but do you?
When I was considering a job in Law Enforcement, many years ago, I took many classes. Had a FBI instructor tell us that the only way to ever remove a serial no., be it either a bike or firearm was to drill
the no's. 101
Hey my brother was in the 101 back in the 60's. It was particularly nasty back then.
ASNT, not ASTM. That's American Society for Nondestructive Testing, not the American Society for Testing Materials (which is ASTM). There is quite a difference, but both societies have considerable respect for the other, I'm sure. You can go to the ASNT web site and verify my Level III certification, it is MM-1850 in radiography, ultrasonics, magnetic particle and penetrant.
Radiography is not sensitive enough to pick these up. Perhaps if the metal was extremely thin, radiography would have some application, but it wouldn't with any real thickness of material. The acids can react to the stress lines set-up around the former impressions. If there is a disruption in the metal flow lines (as with stamping) it would cause internal stress in the material. This could be enhanced by an electrolite to react to the stresses, and should be apparent. Examples of these internal stresses would be the rust lines that develope in the parent material along the edges of welds exposed to the environment.
Fluorescent penetrant will not work, magnetic particle will not work (but perhaps it might for ferromagnetic material as the permeability of the material may change, it would be hard to visualize) ultrasonics will not work, nor will eddy current. Nor will accoustic emmission, or lazer shearography.
I decided I better do a bit of web surfing to make sure what I had learned and seen in the past wasn't incorrect. I wrote the above prior to doing this search. Following you will find a description from the Iowa Criminal Investigation Labs regarding the use of etchants to restore serial numbers. Maybe you better contact them and tell them what they are doing doesn't work. I think what I said above is pretty much in line with them.
http://www.state.ia.us/government/dps/dci/lab/firearms/serialno.htm
Years ago, in my Harley riding days, it was demonstrated to me how to bring out the serial numbers in altered aluminum crank cases cases with an acid. The theory was after so many applications, the old numbers wouldn't re-appear. I have seen it done on aluminum, I don't know why it wouldn't work on steel, but the acid may be different.
For that matter, there are alkaline based etchants which might work. If you are going to argue the difference between acid and alkaline etchants, well, perhaps an alkaline etchant might work better in some cases, on some materials, I don't know. Both can be used as an ethcant.
In any event, as I say, I saw it work on aluminum several years ago. The Iowa Criminal Investigation Laboratories say it will work, as indicated by my link. It certainly makes sense in theory. I leave it to you as to whether you should be telling Iowa Criminal Investigation Labs what they are doing doesn't work.
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
Here is another site that talks a bit about the use of an ACID etch to restore serial numbers, it's down towards the bottom of the page...
http://www.uark.edu/~jcrose/crim/notes4/
I really don't know where you are trying to go with this, were you going to correct me by saying acid wasn't used, it was an etchant that was needed? Most commonly used etchants are acid based.
Please supply links that will support your statement that acid "will never pull up a number".
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
Having a bit of trouble finding the data you need?
To err is human, to moo is bovine.
I'm afraid you're wrong, saying that acid will never pull up a ser# or other stamped markings...
I know this from a criminal investigator/friend, in some cases where a ser# have been removed - and not enough of the metal is removed, you can pull a ser# partly by using acid.
I don't know what the technique is called, but I do know that the gun is placed in a presision workbench that can "grind" or polish the surface to almost 100% flat surface (mirrorlike, without removing more metal than ABSOLUTELY nessasary) and apply acid to polish up some more.
Then you place the gun or whatever metal you're pulling off the ser# or whatever you're looking for - under a microscobe and you can actually see the metal grains/metal structure, how the grains are positioned and what grains have been "damaged" from hammering in the ser#.
When you place a ser#, it is rarely done by engraving it - it's usually done by stamping it into the material with hardened steel punches.
As doing so, you squeze the material or pressure harden the metal in that area.
Think of it as a foam madress, when you place a hand on it and press down - the foam doesnt dissapear, it "moves" to another location.
There will be more metal in the stamping, simply because you've pressed the metal that ought to be in the stamping - out into the surrounding metal.
Like taking a hammer to a piece of steel and hammering marks or bumps in it. The metal doesn't dissapear - just moves and results in a hammer hardening/pressure hardening.
It is that hardening that you can find by polishing the metal, and acid etching the surface - leaving it somewhat "clear" in a microscope, a trained eye in metalurgy can often guess or see the shapes or markings that had been stamped in the metal.
I also know this, because I've seen something resembling it in my job and education as a Marine Engineer (no, not a soldier.. a ships grease monkey as someone might say...), having had metalurgy, calculation on materials strength and slight experience in heat/pressure/hammer hardening of various materials.
I've also worked at a shipyard with some of the best insurance people in the buisness - testing and approving camshafts, cylinders, pistons, valves and so on for offshore industry.
As for magnetic particles, we've tested camshafts for cracks and microscopical tears.
A powerfull transformer with a high-capacity cable was arranged around the test-object like a magnetic coil and turned on.
Kerosene with extremely small magnetic particles in it - is then sprayed on the test-object and cracks or other metal "failure" will immediately show themselves.
The magnetic particles will arrange themselves in and around tears, cracks or places with even slightly more metal than surrounding areas. Also pressure hardenings like stamp-markings.
Will only work on magnetic or ferro-magnetic materials. (ie. materials that will let themselves magnetize)
In regards to the guns - I'd cut the "losses", render it useless and dump it.
I'd melt it with a blowtorch, squash it with a hydraulic press, bash it thourughly with a hammer, weld it and burry it 740 feet under a big oak tree somewhere far far away from a UFO site.
especially the ser#-stamped part and barrel (some bullet in a police case/murder/self-defence might match that exact barrel)
I too have bought a pumpgun without any markings or stamps other than the name of the manufacturer.
Not even a model, test stamp, pressure-test-stamp, approval or some kind of choke indication.
It was a chineese Norinco 12 gauge pumpgun, it was an absolute bottom line of "weapon" - only purchased because of the price and because i wanted to take it with me on a boat.
I gave it to a buddy after I was done with it, he uses it occationally to shoot stray cats in his area.
I hope you and your friend find a good way to deal with it.
I don't know about the BATF - but that might prove to be a good bet too.
Mail it to them - no return adress, no fingerprints and in standard mail-pouch.
Do you sometimes have days or weeks where police or feds allows people to turn in guns, explosives.... no charge... for destruction??
( PS : If there's someone in your neighbourhood that you dislike - slip the gun into his/her car... hehe )
Regards
Peter E Jeppesen
Greenland.
I love my silenced .22 Anshutz rifle =o) Now also my Steyr Scout in .308W. ;o_
Those guns are YUMMMYYYY !
SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net
Have Gun, will travel