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Support Israel Petition- NOT

whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
edited March 2002 in General Discussion
This is in response to bullz thread. I am posting anew so this will not be deleted, but this addresses some of the comments of that thread. And it is a good thread, don't mistake my motives. `noblesse oblige' and `Jew' in the same sentence is laughable. There has never been a more ruthless clutch of malcontents. They, Israel collectively, would cut our throats in an instant if they thought they could gain one shekel in the bargain. They consider us useful but inferior. They have always felt this and teach their children the same. We are `Gentiles', but they say it with a smile when we're around. It's like "ti'bo" in Shoshoni. With a change of inflection, the word for white man becomes a cuss word. Whoever said "they need the Palestinians", is right. But they want them as slaves, not partners. They are unwilling to share anything. I also take exception to the antics of the Palestinians. They are for the most part ignorant and uncivilized, this from a ethnic group that once could boast being the center of leaning in the known world. Sad but true.I say, arm them both equally and let `em go at it. Let God sort `em out later, we can't seem to get it right.Clouder..PS. Bullzeye, No one has signed the petition because you wrote it. Think on that.
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  • whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    LTS:And that invocation is pagan.And you KNOW it.Clouder..
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  • the loveable rat...the loveable rat... Member Posts: 969 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    wc- take a deep breath...i don't have a dog in this fight, so to speak, nor will i sign any petition, but i think you are over the top a bit...there has always been a "clutch of ruthlss. malcntnts." to be found somewhere, grading them seems futile and exaggeration hurts your point. also, racism(a word i hesitate to use because it seems so whiny not to mention slightly innappropriate to describe religous superiority) certainly wasn't invented or is exclusively practiced by jews. perhaps, it is mostly economic, as irish can attest to in their conflict, nevrtheless, "letting them go at it" seems to work only as far as our weaker stomachs can take it- not far enough for your taste, as you make clear...but i think we do need to square our collective reflection in the mirror of inequity and mayhem. or, if you stand by your plan, let rose colored glasses guide our path and hope for the best...i'll shut up now and leave this alone for good...as long as you don't say anything mean to me...lol
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  • whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Rat:My primary objection to Israel's politics is their contention that they are the underdog. They are, by far, the most powerful nation in that part of the world. And they achieved the power by convincing us they were a poor, defenseless nation, hanging on to give a few suffering souls a place to live. Well, as the most powerful, they have responsibilities, gordian's noblesse oblige (the obligation of the powerful to take care of those less fortunate or well placed - for you folks in Gooberville)and they are not living up to them. They abuse their power and position.Never hesitate to use the word racism, shout it out loud, every time you see it. To call someone a Jew is to reference a nationality, a religion, and a race. Their only difference is ethnicity, their common bond, arrogance of the chosen, so they say. They didn't invent the practice of bigotry, but they've refined it to a great degree.Your comparison of the Irish to the Jews I can't see as appropriate other than both are bloody-minded in their singleness of purpose. I've a lot of experience with both people and they are stubborn. And both believe killing your enemy is the most expeditious way to make your point, to the ludicrous degree of dying to make that point. Do you see how inane that is?I don't need or want rose-colored glasses. I've seen the world as it is, and I accept that some things will not change. And the Palestinian-Arab-Muslim/Jewish problem is one of these. I was taught that you don't tease a rattlesnake with a short stick. The length of Israel's stick is mighty short, the width of a shared border.You're new and therefore not aware that I usually go over the top. Take very little of what I say seriously. I am here, what I am here, nothing more.Clouder..
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  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well I'll sign your petition Clouder! It never ceases to amaze me that when I'm around a group of American Jews they thump their chest with military fervor when discussing the Middle East. They profess with a near orgasmic rapture their great desire to go over to Israel and kick Arab *. Yet those same Jews, for the most part, look askance at you if you ask them whether they feel the same patriotic fervor for the United States. The answer is invariably NO!!!! Sure there are some exceptions to that generalization...but you know when you look at the battlefield cemetaries dotted across Europe containing the bodies of Americans who fell for the cause of freedom during WWII, there is a near criminal absence of Stars of David amidst all the crosses. The crosses of Catholics and Protestants abound in those cemetaries; Stars of David are embarressingly scarce in those places of honor. America is a great place for a Jew to make money but for the most part their loyalty is first to Israel. My heritage is Irish; but if it became a choice between Ireland and the USA I'd nuke Ireland back to the Stone Age before I'd let harm befall my country. Find me an American Jew who would make that statement....There may be one out there but I haven't found him yet. While I was on active duty I often pondered how I would have reacted if I had been ordered to take up arms against the Palestinians for the cause of Israel. I want to think I would have carried out my country's desires but it would have wounded me deeply knowing that I was on the side of injustice.For those who prattle on about the "bad evil Palestinian" terrorists they should look and see from whom the Palestinians learned their evil ways. The learned it from the butchering bloody and vile Israeli's. They learned it when Israeli regulars came into small Palestinian villages and burned them to the ground so that Israeli settlers could resettle there. And anyone who blames the 1967 Middle East War on the Palestinians has a near kindergarten-like grasp of the issue. The 1967 War was the work of the Arab nationalist Abd al-Nasir who saw this as an opportunity for Egypt to claim leadership of the Arab world with him at the helm. Until 1964 he had been fairly responsible for his guidance to the Palestininas; however as he gained a pan-Arab audience he became bolder and bolder. The Palestinians had little say in what he and Syria were doing at the time. They only had to live with the results of his gross miscalculations. For Americans in 1967 the planned cold blooded attack on the USS Liberty, deliberately conducted to ensure there was no outside power who could confirm that infact the Israelis began the war, should be all that we need to see how the Israeli's think. If they think nothing about butchering innocent Americans so they can spread the "big lie" one can only wonder what we owe them. The answer of course is nothing. As I think of the Israeli Phantoms repeatedly bombing and strafing that American ship again and again in a desparate attempt to ensure that no Americans survived the bombing and strafing my anger knows no bounds. The pro-Israel lobby managed to sweep it under the rug. The pro-Israel lobby made up largely of people who care little for the US itself has moneyed the palms of many politicians to do their bidding. This American recognizes Israel's treachery and what she has brought us. Sorry guys but Israel has reaped what she has sown. The terrorists blowing themselves up are a product of the terror the Jews brought to Palestine. In a large way we have only Israel to blame for the attacks on the World Trade Center. And while I regret the loss of innocent life I know the Arabs were driven to those actions by the terrorist state of Israel.Have a great day all of you. Beach
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  • alledanalledan Member Posts: 19,541
    edited November -1
    Remember back when the Israelis were selling military parts to Iraq and iran when we were at conflict with them.Don't be fooled by Israels play act of being the tiny underdog! They have a arsenal of over 300 tactical nukes along with all the American technology they beg,borrow or steal.If they want to war then let them kill all the islamic lunatics they can-let it save us the trouble!
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  • the loveable rat...the loveable rat... Member Posts: 969 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    wc-points taken...i was (badly) comparing the irish to the palestinians(not jews), though that might not matter re your argument...and i certainly don't want to defend various jewish intn'tl intrigues or even their national m.o., just thought(still do) nastiness is best fought rather than defended...enjoy the rest of the w/e!
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  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    So where am I prejudiced. I relate facts and you interpret prejudice. Is it prejudice that I show anger toward people who have murdered innocent Americans? You scream that the Palestinians are murdering a$$holes and hope they are wiped from the planet. That's not prejudice? My my you have an interesting value system.I'm not a proponent of the road that Israel has forced the Palestinians to take but I do understand why the Palestinians are on that road. As a result of the last thirty years more and more Palestinians are getting on that road and unfortunately we too are identified as having helped Israel force them there. In 1967 Israel had a chance to defuse the entire conflict; her intransigence instead prolonged it. No one is with out fault here and there is plenty of blame to go around but Israel's state sponsoered terrorism began before the Palestinians reacted to it. Beach
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  • gruntledgruntled Member Posts: 8,218 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The Israelis were selling to both Iran & Iraqbut that was when both countries were at war & the Israeli goal was to keep them fighting.(I have to actually admire that one.) We were doing the same thing also. (Remember the Iran/Contra affair.) We were selling military goods to Iran & supplying Intellengence to Iraq to help each side kill more of the other.I must distance myself a bit from some of the above. My distaste is not for Jews but Zionists just as I distinguish between Germans & Nazis. One is a people the other is a hateful idiology.
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  • ED PED P Member Posts: 190 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This fire doesn't need anymore fuel, butI remember CNN reporting a few years back that Israel gave China complete access to a Patriot system we lent to Israel to protect against Scud missile attacks, in exchange for China revealing glimpses of information on the latest Chinese surface to surface missile system, in order to allow Israel to incorporate better kill percentage against these new TBM's with the Israeli developed (with US dollars) Arrow anti TBM missile system. They revealed secrets our troops rely on to protect themselves against missile attack in order to improve their own Arrow anti missile system to protect their own.
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  • chappsynychappsyny Member Posts: 3,381 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The hell with them both. If both nations were to wipe each other out in a mass strugle after we wash our hands of the whole situation, so much the better. I for one am tired of being stabed in the back by ungrateful zionists and badmouthed by shifty arabs... If it was anyone else but Israel (France, perhaps) pulling these stunts we'd have put a stop to it long ago, just not when Clinton was in office.I'll tell you one thing though, if I were going to make a donation to one side or the other, the arabs would be getting my check.
    New Hampshire, USA - "Live Free or Die!!!"
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  • songdogsongdog Member Posts: 355 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    WOuld that be a taxable donation?songdog
    Be bold in what you stand for, careful in what you fall for.
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  • niklasalniklasal Member Posts: 776 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yall got my vote. Beach, I'm very happy to know I'm not the only one that feels that way. Gruntled, Beach, Clouder, chapsyny... I feel your pain.I say F*** em both. Israel may not have flown into the WTC's, but the US's involvement in that region brought terrorism here. If the US hadn't stuck it's hands where it didn't belong, I am positive we'd have two towers standing and 5,000 innocent civilians alive and with their families.Regardless of WHO started the ugliness between the two groups, the US has no business sending EITHER side weapons, technology, or money. The only reason we are involved in this God-awful mess is because there are a lot of powerful US citizens (politicians and business owners who fund politicians) who have Israeli citizenship in addition to US citizenship. They care more about THEIR brothers and sisters in Israel (non-Jews need not apply), than OUR brothers and sisters (you, me, and ALL American citizens).I question the loyalties of these people, and their continuing involvement in this mess.
    NIKLASAL@hotmail.com
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  • gruntledgruntled Member Posts: 8,218 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    There is another group involved that I had not even considered until I read an article today. Fanatical fundimentalist Christians who are a major financial & polical supportfor Israel & immigration to Israel from Russia. Their purpose is to fulfill Biblical prophecy & to bring about the final battle between good & evil which they believe will result in the second comming of Christ.These people are so sick they don't care about the risks involved because they actually hope to cause a major conflagration.So it's not just fanatical Moslems & Jews but crazy Christians as well. God must be really pleased with the whole lot of them.
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  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'll tell you one thing for sure....I don't think there is anybody alive today who will solve the Middle East issue. BeachP.S. If he is alive he's probably pretty young and should be learning to walk soon. Beach[This message has been edited by beachmaster73 (edited 03-10-2002).]
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  • flyinloflyinlo Member Posts: 2 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    sodbuster, from reading what you posted above, I would have to say you're just as fanatic as those a-holes that flew into the world trade center and pentagon
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  • elmos608elmos608 Member Posts: 124 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Remember when we were selling arms to Iraq and Iran? Oh, and don't forget Afghanistan! God Bless Ronald Reagan.America's finest president.NOT!
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  • badboybobbadboybob Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    elmos if it comes to a choice between klinton and Reagan I'll take Reagan every day of the week and twice on Sunday. IMO klinton was the worst president in our nation's history.
    PC=BS[This message has been edited by badboybob (edited 03-10-2002).]
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  • HAIRYHAIRY Member Posts: 23,606
    edited November -1
    Beach: I find your comment, "My heritage is Irish; but if it became a choice between Ireland and the USA I'd nuke Ireland back to the Stone Age before I'd let harm befall my country. Find me an American Jew who would make that statement....There may be one out there but I haven't found him yet." extremely offensive and childish. As I've noted a couple of times, I am considered a Jew and, I too, would not hesitate to nuke Ireland back to the Stone Age. As you happy now?
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  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    They also have quite a reputation for spying on the good ole USA-and then whining that we have to let their captured spies go.Beachmaster and Clouder- Excellent posts. Oh Yeah-I guess I missed some good stuff this weekend.
    Happiness is a warm gun[This message has been edited by salzo (edited 03-10-2002).]
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  • ibtruknibtrukn Member Posts: 443 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yo Hairy, "I am considered a jew"? You are, or you are not. Which is it? AS fo the statement(s) by Beach, sounds to me like he is an American and a PATRIOT!!
    ibtrukn
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  • whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    beach:I could suggest a youngster who just might be able to sort out this mid-east thing. Hells bells, he's been in business for himself, been involved in the mass media (radio, I think it was) and is privy to references the rest of us can't seem to find. And all this at the tender age of 18.Naw, never mind, he'd have to give up his Rhoades Scholarship. Sorry, it was just a thought.Clouder..
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  • FitzFitz Member Posts: 258 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sure I'll sign that petition. But how much you wanna bet it get's "lost" somewhere? Here's my response to the original post.Give me a break! You want MORE support for Israel? They already get $6.5 billion a year from us, much of it in secret committees, and all of it kept out of the news. 85,000 absentee ballots from Israel of American "citizens" were the Democrats last hope of winning our last presidential elections. Israeli spies are rampant in the US and rarely reported. MY passport says Cleary that serving in a foreign army is reason to lose MY US citizenship, but scores of these traitors serve in the Israeli army unpunished. To hell with Israel and all the Israeli-first, Zionist traitors. If you care so much about Israel, go there and don't come back! America is changing. The quiet, hard working, Constitution-loving folks are starting to get off their complacent * are realize the hypocrisy of supporting a country with gross human rights violations and no constitution. You better get that petition signed now, because the average "joe" is becoming less and less intimated by your accusations of being a Nazi or anti-semite and is starting to talk about these things.Fitz[This message has been edited by Fitz (edited 03-10-2002).]
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  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hairy...didn't know you were a Jew. Don't really care. Didn't hear you say you'd nuke Israel back to the Stone Age. I do appreciate your confirmation of my initital premise. I would have much more respect for you if you had said you'd use Tel Aviv as "ground zero" before you let anything happen to the USA. And prove old Beach wrong. I know where my loyalties lie; I guess I did have the right idea where yours are. BeachP.S. I don't like hyphenated Americans. You are either an American or you are not. I'm really first generation American and am proud of it. I am proud to call the USA my land. If more Americans could let go of their Afro-Mexican-Italian-Irish-Polish-German-Jewish-Vietnamese-Cambodian-whatever roots from the old country and thank God they were kissing American soil we would have a stronger more energetic and united country. Beach
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  • treedawgtreedawg Member Posts: 321 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    BEACH FOR PRESIDENT!!!!! YOU GOT ONE VOTE IN ATLANTA IF YOU WANT TO RUN........
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  • HAIRYHAIRY Member Posts: 23,606
    edited November -1
    Guys, does sarcasm go over your heads? Ibtrkn: when one is born of a Jewish mother, according to Jewish law, the child is considered Jewish--despite the fact the child is baptised into the Southern Baptist church! Now, you tell me--is the child considered Jewish or Christian?Beach: I have no problem supporting the US in any of its efforts--including a decision to bomb Tel Aviv, Belfast, London, Paris, etc. After some 25+ years of service in the USAF (including time in the 'Nam during Tet), I sorta think of myself as an American. At least that's what my passport says.
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  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    My apologises HAIRY....I deeply appreciate your service to our country. Beach
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  • HAIRYHAIRY Member Posts: 23,606
    edited November -1
    Beach: No offense taken; I know you've been there too. Hey, we're just having fun here, aren't we?
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  • v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I support a Jewish homeland that has a drawto Jews from all over the world. If they're there they can't be elsewhere can they ? It surprises me they have a stomach for combat not shown in American wars. Were they defeated, where would the survivors emigrate ? You got it.I dont want that to happen.Arab interests have to be sacrificed.
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  • nordnord Member Posts: 6,106 ✭
    edited November -1
    I don't support any petition for a country (other than the U.S.) to do anything. I'm not a citizen of the world, I'm a citizen of the U.S.Further, I disagree with any of you who have made negative comments with regard to folks who follow the Jewish faith. I feel the same about those who would discriminate against any faith... As long as general rules of common courtesy and respect are followed by those faiths.When a follower of Islam, Judiasm, Christianity, or any other faith puts their religious beliefs ahead of country... Then I have a problem. I have both Jewish and Islamic friends who put the U.S. first. They may not share religion, but they get along with each other. Only when a member of the various religions begins to put the interests of another country ahead of those of the U.S. is there a problem. In former times those who acted in the interests of a foriegn power were called traitors. This hasn't changed.
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  • niklasalniklasal Member Posts: 776 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think it would be great if every people had a homeland to turn to in need, including the Jews. It's just hard to support the cause when you know you are not welcome in their land - the same land they want you to help them defend.
    NIKLASAL@hotmail.com
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