enemy at the gates

jdb123

Movie: Enemy at the Gates, about a German sniper looking for a Russian sharpshooter...about 1 hour and thirty minutes left, on the Movie Channel.

jdb123

speaking of war movies just saw "enemy at the gates" on dvd and was wondering although i was aware of this story before i saw the movie{THE HISTORY CHANNEL'S "TALES OF THE GUN"}and have heard different stories did this showdown really happen between the German and Russian sniper?[This message has been edited by jdb123 (edited 01-26-2002).]

Gordian Blade

This is what I was able to get off the net:Some Soviet sources claim that the Germans brought in the chief of their sniper school to hunt down Zaitsev, but that Zaitsev outwitted him. Zaitsev, after a hunt of several days, apparently spotted his hide under a sheet of corrugated iron, and shot him dead. The telescopic sight off his prey's rifle, allegedly Zaitsev's most treasured trophy, is still exhibited in the Moscow armed forces museum, but this dramatic story remains essentially unconvincing. It is worth noting that there is absolutely no mention of it in any of the reports to Shcherbakov, even though almost every aspect of 'sniperism' was reported with relish.This is the URL:http://militarybooks.tripod.com/sniping.htmThe romantic triangle is, of course, pure fiction. I still enjoyed the film, though. Everybody likes the "First man takes a rifle, second man follows him." scene, but I also liked the sequence that begins with Danilov's realization that no two men can ever be exactly equal, not even in communism.[This message has been edited by Gordian Blade (edited 01-26-2002).]

Gordian Blade

More stuff from a different place:The story of Vassili Zaitsev has long been believed to be a historical fact. However, there has not been any documented proof that the legendary sniper duel between Zaitsev and Konig ever took place. As a matter of fact, Beevor's account mentions Koning and other accounts mention a Thorwald. I am inclined to believe that the Soviet Command invented this story to inspire the beleaguered troops of Stalingrad in their darkest hours of fighting the German onslaught. As a matter of fact, I had an occasion to interview an elderly Russian gentleman who claimed to have trained under Zaitsev in Stalingrad. When I asked about the duel, he replied something to the effect of, "Its true if that is want you want to believe". I don't doubt that many duels occurred between the snipers of both sides. However, to believe that the German High Command went to the trouble to commit the chief instructor of their sniper school to finding and killing one Soviet sniper is a lot to accept. That being said the story goes like this.....To study the 91/30 Sniper rifle, it's useful to understand it's role in the critical stages of the Great Patriotic War. One of those critical stages was the battle for Stalingrad. The Sniper was key to harassing and demoralizing the attacking German forces. As the struggle for Stalingrad ensued, the snipers involved became Soviet heroes. One of them was Vassili Zaitsev. He became famous after the press had discovered that he accomplished nearly 40 kills in a ten day period. He was renown for taking out his targets using a single round. It was a skill he had learned while shooting deer in the forests around Elininski, his home in the Ural Mountain foothills. On September 20, 1942, Zaitsev went to Stalingrad with the 284th Rifles Division. As his accomplishments made him a national hero, and as his fame spread across no-man's-land, the Germans took an inordinate interest in him. Major Koning was dispatched to Stalingrad from Berlin for the express purpose of eliminating the top Soviet snipers. Vassili Zaitsev, was high on his list. The Soviets learned of Konig's mission through interrogating a prisoner. Antony Beevor wrote, "Like Zaitsev, Koning first made a careful study of the terrain and of his victims before attempting a kill. When two Soviet snipers were killed by single rifle shots, Zaitsev began counter-stalking Koning himself. The duel lasted for several days. During this time Koning shot a political officer named Danilov who was "covering" the duel for Soviet propaganda (Danilov accompanied Zaitsev and stupidly gave away their position). Zaitsev finally got Koning by offering another sniper, his assistant Zulikov, as bait. Zulikov positioned himself and lifted his helmet over a wall, where Koning put a bullet through it. Kulikov cried out as if hit. Koning made the fatal mistake of exposing himself to confirm the kill, and Zaitsev shot him dead. The telescopic sight of his prey's rifle, allegedly Zaitsev's most treasured trophy, is still exhibited in the Moscow armed forces museum, but this dramatic story remains essentially unconvincing. It is worth noting that there is absolutely no mention of it in any reports.* "*Antony Beevor - Stalingrad, The fateful siege : 1942 - 1943.http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/sniper.htm[This message has been edited by Gordian Blade (edited 01-26-2002).]

Gordian Blade

Sorry, just one more link and then I'll let you decide for yourself:WHAT DID VASILI BELIEVE?Did the Russian Propaganda Ministry tell Vasili that a `super-sniper' was sent to kill him? Yes. If Vasili had killed a sniper who had the rank of Major, I am sure he would have known and mentioned it. Would the Germans send someone that prestigious, who was a high-ranking officer and Commandant of one of their sniper schools to Stalingrad? I doubt it. Would they have sent a top enlisted sniper to hunt down and kill Vasili? Yes, more probably. In any case, Vasili believed in his own mind that he had killed the 'super-sniper' that he was told was sent to kill him. Without documentation from Germany, we will never know for sure if there was a Major Konig, or that an expert sniper was sent specifically to kill Vasili.http://www.snipersparadise.com/History/vasili.htm

RugerNiner

The Victors are always the ones who write history.

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Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!

jdb123

thanks for info blade

COWBOYKIDD

jdb. I see that the thread where you and myself exchanged words has been poofed.If by chance you did'nt get to read it, let me say it now. I wanted to apologize for being rude and slamming the door on your post.I thought about my actions alot and realize you are entitled to your opinion as I am mine.Sincerely Kidd

Bullzeye

The movie was absolutely outstanding, for the record.I've always been interested in the Russian Front aspect of WWII. They really took it on the chin. They lost more guys than all of the other countries put together.Forget about combat deaths, something like at least 2 million Russians starved to death during that war, most of them in Leningrad and Stalingrad.But I still refuse to believe a Russian country boy can just pick up a scoped Mosin-Nagant and do perfect headshots. You dont learn to do that from hunting, I dont care how long you've been doing it for.Totally different set of training.[This message has been edited by Bullzeye (edited 01-26-2002).]

Iconoclast

Soviets had some excellent snipers, but also a propaganda machine of vast proportions. From the lack of independent confirmation from other sources, MHO is that it was at most an embellishment of more routine events.

gruntled

Back in the mid-fifties I bought several 16 mm WW II newsreel type movies. One of themwas a propaganda film to raise support for our Russian allies. This film included a much shortened version of this same story.I don't recall anything about the Commissaracting the fool & getting shot. I doubt verymuch if the Communists would have allowed that to get into the story even if it happened.

beachmaster73

Bullzeye....I would submit the name Alvin York to you to show you what an unschooled country boy can do with a simple rifle and simple hunting skills. The movie "SGT York" is over 60 some years old, Gary Cooper is long dead in his grave, you won't be impressed with the movie's special effects, but you will see an accurate description of what a Tennessee farm boy could do with his rifle and pistol. While many of us will never know whether the Russian was as good as Soviet Propaganda of the time made him out to be.....we do know that Alvin York embodied greatness from simple hunting roots. Beach

thesupermonkey

Bullzeye,Don't forget Anne Oakly! She started hunting when she was just a little girl. She trained herself to do headshots on small game with her father's old black powder rifle...