Canine Intelligence

Gordian Blade · February 2002

I thought this would be a good day to start a discussion about canine intelligence. In other words, is your dog smart? How do you know? What does he/she do?The reason I'm interested in this is that I learned in college Psychology 101 and from articles I read years ago that animals don't really have the ability to learn and understand human language. Then some apes were taught sign language, but there are still arguments about how much they really understand. And most so-called experts say that dogs don't really understand words, only your tone of voice and body movement. I thought that all made sense until our family got our first dog.Our dog is not a hunting dog, just a pet. I never expected him to learn words and nobody in the family tried to teach him. But he's picked up about 100 words on his own, things like school, grandma, up, teeth, eyes, car, out, walk, etc. It doesn't matter what tone of voice or what you are doing, he knows the words, or at least he knows how they relate to him. And when he wants something, I could swear that he's trying to speak in what he thinks is human language, sort of like a drunk slurring his words so you can't quite understand, but definitely not barking. Of course he only understands simple things, but when we say, "Go dad's car," he definitely gets it. So there goes the theory of the experts, or is my dog somehow fooling me?What does your dog do to show you how smart he/she is? Or do you think all dogs are as dumb as rocks?

oldfriends · February 2002

We have three dogs. Actually they are my wifes. To give you and idea of how smart they are, we feed them and they do nothing; we water them and the do nothing; we clean up their scat and they do nothing. They lay around the house and sleep. Sounds like a pretty good life if you could get someone to do that for you. Is that smart or what?When the yellow lab was a pup I started to work with him. I thought I would have a pretty good hunting dog. About that same time I was reassigned as a geographical bachelor. All the work I started went out with the dish water. When I would come home and pick up where I left off, it was like starting over. Now he and his mother are nothing more than house pets. The third is a beagle/doberman cross that the family picked up from the pound as a pup. Looks like a beagle but as tall as a doberman. She is probably the best of the three. Good watch dog but she is getting pretty gray and won't be around much longer. I have noticed over the years that a mutt or cross bred dog appears to show more intelligence than the pure bred dogs. Has anyone else noticed this?

Life is Tough!It's Tougher if You're Stupid

instrumentofwar · February 2002

i think some dogs can have a higher intelligence. my wife and i have a st. bernard, imho THE best dog for interaction with children. we don't have kids yet, but my younger sister was living with us for a few months with her 9 month old daughter, Jewel. well, the dog has had a thing for cables or ropes since he was a puppy, and has finially been broken of the habit of pulling them out to play. our entertainment center has quite a few cords running from behind it (tv, vcr, dvd, sattelite, playstation, stereo, and on and on...he learned at a young age to stay away from there. then this new "toy" comes into his world (my neice) and he's in heaven. she was right at the age that she's scooting all around the house on her belly faster than you can say "where in the hell did she go?", but that dog has an eye on her, 24/7. one day we watched her trying to get into the cables behind the ent. center (she's inherited his fascination with cords) and he kept moving her away when she got close. she would crawl back and he would gently slide her back with his muzzle or paws, but sure as s**t she'd be right back. next thing we know he has moved her back into the other room and while she was crawling back he would pile stuff up in the corner so she couldn't get back there. she'd crawl back and he moved her again and kept on working. took him a total of four trips. when she finally crawled back the fifth time he was laying down in front of the "blockade" and Jewel started throwing a fit! so off he goes and comes trotting back with one of his bones (a cows femur!) and flops back down beside her. she stops crying crawls up beside him between his paws and starts gnawing on one side of his bone while he chews on the other, stopping to take an occasional break to lick her head or look at my wife and i to see just why in the hell we were laughing so hard.by the way his name on his AKC registery is ....Big Stupid * Child Cujo.

The world is full of sheep, run with the wolves and make 'em call ya daddy[This message has been edited by instrumentofwar (edited 02-02-2002).]

ndbilly · February 2002

Had a couple of mixed breeds and agree that they were smart. Smartest purebred was a boxer we owned years ago. Dumbest purebred, hands down, no contest, is our current canine-in-residence, an English Bulldog. Hide food under some sort of cover, while she's watching you, and she has no clue as to where it went. Someone comes to the door, no barking. Stranger in the house, she's all wiggles and affection. Take her outside to take care of business and she spots the neighbor's garbage can? I've got White Fang on the end of the leash. Still, she's the neatest dog we've ever had. You can't look at her and not smile.

instrumentofwar · February 2002

Alot of breeds' lack of intelligence stems from selective inbreeding, thats why muts are generally a bit smarter than the purebreeds. A few generations of new blood. Hell just look at the residents of "Flarda" (stir,stir......wait five, stir again)

The world is full of sheep, run with the wolves and make 'em call ya daddy[This message has been edited by instrumentofwar (edited 02-02-2002).]

Iconoclast · February 2002

iow, I do believe you are lookin' to get stung . . . or are you eager to have 'bees' in your bonnet?

Otoman · February 2002

ndbilly I have to agree with you about the English Bull Dog being the dumbest of all. When my kids were about 2-3 years old one took a hammmer and was beating him on the head and he wouldn't even walk away just ducked his head everytime he got hit until I got the boy stopped....

gruntled · February 2002

My cousin used to breed & train Tennessee Walking horses. She let me ride her prized show horse & all I had to do was tell the horse what to do. Anyone that didn't know better would have thought I knew what I was doing. The horse had to be able to understand.

competentone · February 2002

.218 is working the show in Lakeland--so he won't be doing any stinging here tonight.Mutts are smarter than pure-breds--just look what happened to the Nazis![This message has been edited by competentone (edited 02-02-2002).]

whiteclouder · February 2002

Dog's aren't as smart as pigs and a horse is as dumb as a sheep. But dogs can be loyal and abiding friends.Clouder..

instrumentofwar · February 2002

When i was younger growing up on a little farm in Iowa our closest neighbor was a fella named Bob Barnes, used to run a pretty decent sized rodeo too. As you can imagine we used to spend quite a bit of time over there and down on our pastures. A comment made when i was probably about 8 or 9 has always stuck with me. Horses are dumb, if you were knocked unconcious and were to drop from the saddle and be drug by a stirrup, a horse would kick you in the head until you were dead before even realizing to stop. A mule on the other hand would stop for you. It was proven when i was younger, i was riding an OLD barrel racer when i was about 6 years old, and i thought i was old enough to help my mom saddle Thunder. Unfortunately i didn't have the * at the time to tighten the girth strap, nor the knowledge to put a knee in the horses side when doing so. I realized this as i was riding and my saddle kept sliding further and further to the right. Horse never even slowed down, i tell ya what though i don't think i've ever seen my mom move faster in my life, and she was pregenant at the time.

The world is full of sheep, run with the wolves and make 'em call ya daddya dog is also the only animal that will put itself in harms way to protect his master or one of the family[This message has been edited by instrumentofwar (edited 02-02-2002).]

pops401 · February 2002

Is someone trying to raise the ire of Sir .218 in his absence? Not good!

wundudnee · February 2002

What are words if not just sounds? I have a black lab newfoundland cross that know's words, no matter who says them. She can learn a new trick in a minute. A real joy to be with. I love horses, however when you have a 1200# animal with a brain the size of a walnut and you're around it long enough you're going to get hurt. Horses are fright and flight critters that see things humans will never see. I have seen some well trained horses but they will never have the sense of a good dog.

"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" Will Rogers

Bullzeye · February 2002

That's damn near the most disturbing graphic I've ever seen, pops. Keep up the good work.My Huskie's about as intelligent as they get.I had a fat old Shetland pony a few years back. She was about as calm as a pony could be, and as round as a barrel.She would go stand in the rain during storms so she could clean off, and always knew to pick up her feet if she stepped on yours and you hollered.Wasnt much good for riding. Poor old thing could barely carry herself around. But after several little ponys of her own, she had that wise old lady look in her eyes that I've never forgotten.

instrumentofwar · February 2002

damn...i thought he'd be around. i just saw the post of him saying he taking off for a bit. it's not like me to hit a man when he's not looking. unless of course he deserves it, and he's a helluva lot bigger than you.and here i am in a stirrin' mood tonight too

The world is full of sheep, run with the wolves and make 'em call ya daddy[This message has been edited by instrumentofwar (edited 02-02-2002).]

Rembrandt · February 2002

Mrs Rembrandt has two Schnauzer's and a bumper sticker on her car..."Dogs are just like children only with fur"....

idsman75 · February 2002

Rembrandt--Did you make the dogs take their oath of enlistment before you issued them their dog tags? heh heh hehinstrumentofwar--That's one heck of a story. Cujo is going to be HUGE when you get back. Imagine all the growing he's done in your absence. I grew up with a black lab named Pepper. We knew she wasn't a pure-bred due to the seven (yes I counted) white hairs on her chest -- hence, the name "Pepper". She also grew up with an affinity for electrical cords. When she was young she was a faithful cord-chewer if you left her alone for any period of time. However, she NEVER chewed on a cord that was plugged in. On many occasions she would unplug a cord and only then begin chewing on it.

timberbeast · February 2002

Learning by rote is not the same as "thought". A dog will associate the word "ride" with going into the car, and one dog may learn to associate hundreds of words with things in its lifetime, and act intelligently. Yet it is still not capable of abstract thought, such as "I wonder when I'm going to get fed? Maybe my master is running late today?", but it will anticipate your arrival, as a pattern learned by habit. Dogs also seem to have an innate instinct to recognize danger and to protect those it knows from it. You can wrassle around good-naturedly with a friend, and the dog won't bother about it, but let a stranger attack your kid, and see how fast the dog will attack said stranger in protection. It's instinctual. I can only speak about Labs, the only dogs I've owned. (Got 8 pups running around the house right now, all are sold, couple weeks, and they'll be gone. Less mopping and work, but also less fun laying on the floor and playing with them! 'Specially for the kids!

Gordian Blade · February 2002

OK, timberbeast, I'll take a little bite on what you said. True, dogs are incapable of the level of abstraction that humans handle, but wouldn't you say that the association of a spoken word with a concept like getting in the car to go for a ride is itself a form of abstraction? Let me give you an interesting example: Our dog learned the words "food" and "toy" from listening to us. But, to his way of thinking, they are synonyms! Even though we always refer to certain things as toys and others as food, he made the connection that in both cases he chews it and that's what counts for him. To me, this is a fascinating window into the canine way of looking at the world.Here's another example of canine abstraction: He knows the word "guard" as he first learned it, when we told him to "guard Mom" and he would seek out Mrs. Blade and stay by her side. Once he got that, he knew what "guard Dad" meant with no instruction. From there, he was able to figure out that "guard home" meant he wasn't coming with us. It was a combination of two separate words he knew, but in a different context. So I would say that's pretty abstract thinking considering he's only a dog.PS -- I didn't mean for this to be a bragging-about-your-dog thread. I assume most smart dogs could do the same.

timberbeast · February 2002

Gordian, I didn't say they were dumb, just that they learn by rote. The dog knows who "Mom" is (heh heh, in my house it's Mommy), and the dog know what "guard" means. Is that an abstract thought? I don't think it is, but I've been wrong before and I'll be wrong again!Training a Lab to hunt, there are whistle commands. In my opinion, there should only be two. One means sit right where you are and look at me. More than one blast means get your butt over here right now! The dog will figure out for itself that when you give one blast on the whistle when it's in the water, to turn and look at you, treading water. It doesn't attemp to "sit" on the bottom. Is that abstract, or is that something passed down through the genes of ancestors? My favorite, late, Lab quartered no more than 30 yards in front of me any time I took him out in grass. Both parents were pheasant dogs. I never trained him on that!Then, there are hand signals, a throwing motion means go back, and a hand movement to left will make the dog go to the left, and vice-versa. This is used when the dog doesn't see a bird fall, and the wind is wrong, to direct the dog to a spot where it can pick up the scent. I've found this very easy to teach to Labs. Short lessons, often. When the dog gets confused, it's too long of a lesson. Interesting topic, I must say. You're making me think about it!Incidentally, to anyone who owns a dog and has trouble training, the two worst mistakes you can make are:1. Inappropriate punishment. A dog relates punishment to the last act it did. If it runs off, and you punish it when it returns, it will associate punishment with coming to you.2. Giving treats for rewards. Your dog's most important goal is to please you, and praise should be the only reward. That builds loyalty, not bribery.Good topic, Gordian. (can you tell I like dogs?)

offeror · February 2002

I currently have a Shar Pei, but have owned others in the past, including a Norweigan Elkhound and a Pit Bull mix. My dog Buff (that's her color) knows quite a few words and learns from me, but she's the "Alpha" in the house and occasionally has a mind of her own. That doesn't make her dumb, she just makes choices at times.I saw something recently that said that dogs can typically learn an average of 45 words, and I'm not surprised to hear yours knows 100 or so. The key in my case is that I got her 5 years ago as a puppy during a layoff, and she was with me so much that I literally caught practically every behavior every time and simply trained her out of bad habits. She learns from me without training, too, in the course of my natural routine. For example, she started sleeping with her head laid on a pillow (on my couch, never the bed) after watching me, and now she has her own pillow to sleep on. She learned to look in the direction I'm pointing, to see what I'm pointing at. If I mention her ball or her bone, she'll stop and think for a second and then go find it in another part of the house. She has learned to sit still and be calm for "medicine" because she trust me to treat her when she gets hurt. She comes when I ask if she wants to "take a pill" because she gets it in a dab of peanut butter. She never takes my food even off the coffee table when I'm out of the room. She knows when I want to examine her "eyeballs," and will come right over even if she's playing, and she knows "let me see those ears." And when I say "other one" she knows to turn around. She rarely needs to relieve herself during the night, but if she has a touch of Montezuma's revenge she'll come to my bed, wake me up by reaching up and touching the bed near my face repeatedly with a paw, wake me and lead me downstairs to go. She also uses her paw in a very hand-like way to reach and get things in other situations, as I'm sure some other dogs do -- I know this is not all unique, but it sure ain't dumb. There are probably more good examples I can't think of at the moment, but suffice to say she's a good companion and obviously is fairly smart and intuitive. Her only behavioral problem, really, is that she doesn't like being in the cage (known as the kennel) in the house when I'm gone. She has separation anxiety. I didn't train her properly about the cage when she was younger, and she had a back yard for a while, which we don't right now, so I deal with it. She has injured herself a couple of times trying to get out, but I do what I can to make sure she's prepared in advance when she has to spend time in there and often she's fine when I get home. It's the quick unexpected trips that are the most irritating for her and if I leave her a pad to lie on she may tear it apart. We've tried Elavil but it wasn't the cure. So we do the best we can. I raised my dog on bits of good advice collected over time: 1. Dogs only desire to please their master, so if you train them about what you want they will do it happily to please you. This leads directly to my second rule: 2. Don't hit. There's no need to use hitting to train a dog that only desires to please their master, and it often won't get the desired results anyway. If you find yourself wanting to hit, get assistance from a pro trainer, or spend more time with your dog on training. Most dogs develop a lot of bad habits on their own when they aren't supervised enough to learn what the owner wants them to do instead. 3. A "bad" dog is hardly ever, maybe never, the dog's fault. Dogs are living things, they have chemical imbalances & hormones and things that can contribute to behavior and they need to be understood more often than to be made to understand. My dog is for companionship. She doesn't hunt for me, though she used to kill a rabbit or chase a duck in the back yard occasionally at my former house. I enjoy her and I think she saved my sanity during that layoff thing. Plus the fact that I have lived alone for quite a while. I'm grateful, and there are days when, if all I do is take good care of her, I've had a good day.

"The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."

timberbeast · February 2002

Sounds like a fantastic dog! One thing I've always wondered. How does a dog (or a cat) know when you speak to them, or if they come to you, to look into your eyes???? If it was purely sensory, they would look at your mouth where the sound comes from, or, since they operate mainly by the sense of smell....no, I won't go there!!Lots of dogs have separation anxiety, and is the main reason they act up when alone. Better a small wound from the crate than a torn up house! They can also develop neuroses. Our last Lab (mother of the current one) was locked in our house when it burned down, and was never the same. It got to the point where she began to bite people she didn't know. We had to do the responsible thing, as much as it hurt us.As far as hitting, there are some alphas who need a "talking to" once in awhile, to establish who the boss is. I've found that the best way is to lift the dog by the scruff of the neck and the tail (this is not painful to a Lab) and speak in a harsh manner. It shows the dog that you have control over it, and that when you exert your control, it is helpless. If you want to find out if your dog is a true alpha, try putting it on its back. Laying on the back is an act of submission to a dog, and an alpha will fight it. Some dogs will walk up to you and immediately show you their belly. Our current Lab is that way, but I was the only person who could put my ole' Georgie on his back. Yet, he never bit, and didn't fight other dogs. Must have never run into another alpha!Also, toilet training is a 24-hour process, if you're willing to expend the energy. Take the dog outside once an hour for 24, praise it every time it makes business outdoors, if it has an accident, scold, but forget rolled up newspapers or rubbing the nose in it, take it outside immediately and praise it. The connection takes a very short time. Crates are good for people who are away a lot, as few dogs will soil where they sleep, they'll hold it as long as they can to avoid it. If they are housebroken already, no need to scold if they do mess in the crate, they had no choice. And their actions will tell you they are ashamed. Bottom line in any training is, if you begin to lose your temper, end the training immediately!

barto · February 2002

two of my great danes favorite words are "weeny" & "bone".it doesnt matter if you say them or spell them she still knows what your saying.she will even lead you to the fridge.that shore dont make her no einstein, though.laziest, friendliest dog ive ever had.

the hard stuff we do right away - the impossible takes a little longer

nord · February 2002

I've come to the conclusion that there are few animals that can't be credited with abstract thought. That doesn't mean they're necessarily brite, nor does it mean that the decisions they make are correct... Witness the human race.When my older son turned 14 I took him on his first deer hunt. After several hours a small buck came into view... I witnessed this from about 50 yards. The gun came up and then went back down. I can't tell you how proud I was that the lad was more sportsman than meat hunter.In any case the little buck skittered up through the woods toward me while still focusing on my son. By the time he was 10 yards from me he had slowed down to a walk and I could literally see the pride he exuded having been so much smarter than that nasty human. At that point I brought my A-5 to bear on his shoulder and shouted "Bang! You're dead!". He looked at me. He knew! We communicated and the joke was on him.The boy lost all pride and consentration... And a load of other things. He also lost his life to another hunter a few minutes later because he allowed pride to rule over reason. He panicked.Had the buck not panicked, he should have been aware that if I hadn't harmed him at that point, I probably wasn't going to. All you deer hunters... Tell me that after you've declined to take a shot, that both you and the deer haven't exchanged some sort of communication. Tell me that the smart ones haven't somehow acknowledged you, yet dismissed you as a threat and continued to be wary of others. Tell me that there isn't abstract thought involved on both sides. Now, does that mean that humans sometime act like deer, or does it mean that deer sometimes act like humans? I haven't a clue. Notice... I didn't say deer were smart, I just said that I saw a thought process taking place and that it was no different than my own in most ways. There was an intellegent thought process and communication taking place between two very different species... Even a pratical joke being played back and forth.Dogs and people... Dogs think doggy things and people think people things. I suspect that if one were to engage a dog in a conversation about higher math, it might be a bit one-sided. The same might be said if the dog was trying to engage a human in a conversation about the finer points of sampling mountain jellybeans. Not something humans can really appreciate!But... Engage a human and dog in something they're equally interested in and there's real communication and a real thought process that takes place.Tell me that the difference between a red ball and a blue ball is learned by rote. OK... Dogs may not see color very well, but there is some sort of difference and they're very aware of whatever it is. Tell Lillian, our resident Curly Coat to get Otter Bob, and she unfailingy gets that particular toy. Mention any of her human family by name and she knows who they are. Tell her that her best buddy MoJo (my other son's male Curly Coat) is coming and she knows. Have a normal conversation in another room that doesn't concern her and there's no interest even if words are brought up that she knows. Speak of something that involves her and you have her full attention. Hmmm... My wife tells me that the dog gets better marks than most husbands.Horses and pigs... I have no idea of their ability. All I know is that humans are not the sole "thinkers" here on this earth. That we think of different things from our fellow travelers is what defines us. But then a pig thinking piggy things would seem to define a pig, wouldn't it? It just doesn't mean that when man and pig are thinking truffles, we aren't thinking pretty much along the same vein.Enough! We aren't the only smart ones. We're the only ones who don't give credit to others for being smart... And that's dumb!

SXSMAN · February 2002

My dog was 10 months old when we got him.He had been taught german.Still funny today seeing people trying to get him to "lay down",with words in english and gestures .Say plotz and he drops like a rock.

wundudnee · February 2002

nord,Good points-well presented.SXSMAN,My son had a golden retriever and a German wife. It sounded a little funny when she would ask the dog if it needed to go peesha, or pisha. sp? He sure misses the dog.

"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" Will Rogers

Canine Intelligence

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