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Collectable Firearms Help
vipereater
Member Posts: 90 ✭
I've never purchased a collectable firearm. My attraction is western style revolvers and rifles. I've been told that many collectables are not authentic and its buyer beware. Who can I trust to shoot straight with me? I'm open to suggestions on what to purchase. $2000 max for something in excellent condition. Which firearm is rather inexpensive today that may become collectable tomorrow? My goal is to add various items to my collection, one every year. Thanks for the help. Vipereater
Comments
Guns! Guns! Guns!
* is right, you have to do a lot of research on any particular type of weapon that you want to collect. Some people collect for an investment, and some just to collect something.
When you're collecting firearms for an investment, you're usually looking at high grade stuff, that's where you have to be very careful. Originality, rarity and condition will determine the value.
Things to watch for that detract immenseley from value are reblued guns, drilled & tapped when they're not supposed to be, cut and, or refinished wood, buggered up screws,and excessive blue and wood wear. You want to try to get the ones that are in excellent condition or better. Those are the ones that usually appreciate better and much easier to sell and get your price.
One thing any collector will tell you about collecting, it's not the quantity, it's the quality. I've been collecting Winchesters for over 35 years, and the days of finding good ones reasonable are over. There are now a lot of mickey-moused ones out there.
Try to find someone you know that you can trust and knows a lot about guns and ask him if you can pick his brains once in a while.
If I can be of any help, you can e-mail me, and I'll try all I can. I always enjoy talking guns and trying to help someone out. One other thing, if you're going to collect one particular brand or model, there are a lot of books out there that specialize in makes, models, etc. Good Luck.
Gino
bullelk@psouth.net
"If All Else Fails, Read The Directions"
Edited by - bullelk on 05/19/2002 17:09:12
Millions of Ruger 10/22's have been made, they were inexpensive and will never be highly collectible for those reasons. Firearms that have been replicated in the millions are not the best collectibles...but there are some exceptions. Particular production variations command higher values.
Antique Doctor or Judge Colt to name a few are very knowledgeable and have helped many concerning details most never knew about.
What to collect is more or less up to your persoanl tastes. A few firearms that come to mind as being "Classics" might be...
Lugers
Colt SAA
Winchester Lever Actions
Pre-64 Winchester Bolt Actions
Early S&W's
Drillings
High Grade Over/Unders
Model 12's
Side by side Shotguns
Engraved variations of the above....just a few ideas...
With hundreds of thousands of Colt SAA's produced, how did they become so sought after? They are high production!
Vipereater
Only buy 80% or better.
Now the micro-economics part: You're unlikely to ever get a really good deal on the internet, because the information costs are so low (i.e. enough people will always bid a collectable up to its real value). On the other hand, if you watch the local classifieds (or "for sale" boards at gun clubs) and try to put out the word through friends of what you're looking for, you just might find a real gem that someone got from their grandfather but doesn't want to keep...
Beware lest in your anxiety to avoid war you obtain a master. -Demosthenes
If on the other hand, you want to collect Western style guns of newer vintage to shoot, then it's a whole different ballgame. You want the gun checked out by a competent gunsmith, restored as you like, and then yes, sometimes an old tarnished gun can become a nice shooter. Rust is a tougher issue and not a very good sign. Personally, I would not get involved with rusty guns much. In any case, you'd have to take a rusty gun completely down and clean every bit of rust off. It might make a nice project for you, to see how well you do with it, but I can't guarantee you'll have a nice shootable gun when you're through. It may still become a wall hanger. It all depends.
If you're talking about up to $2000 for one gun per year, you have a lot of reading to do before entering the cowboy gun collecting market. I believe a couple of current gun magazines on the newsstand happen to be covering Western style guns right now, so you might get lucky if you run down to a good magazine vendor and pick up something to get you started. In any case, look for the back issues that cover Western guns and order a few. But your best source of all might just be your local library branch. Tell them you'd like to research Western style guns and see if they can help direct you to books (with lots of photographs as well as info) on the subject.
Please note that if you get involved with the old rust buckets you will likely be into the "curios and relics" territory, and those guns are often NOT to be shot. They may blow up in your face. I feel obligated to say this to somebody like you who is asking such a basic question. Don't buy very old guns, or guns in very bad shape, and expect to shoot modern ammunition in them (not even one round) without examination by a qualified gunsmith first to get an expert opinion.
- Life NRA Member
If dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
If I were to offer my opinion on my area of some knowledge, Colts, I would say any of the M1911-style pistols have been appreciating the most rapidly over the last twenty years. There was a WWI M1911 on one of the auction sites recently that did not meet its reserve at about $2500, but it was clearly worth more. It was close to perfect, and very well presented by the seller with lots of detailed photos. Not too many years ago, that pistol would have been in the $750 range.
If $2000 pieces are the desired range, there are lots of sharks in those waters. In that price range, one might consider Colt Single Actions and earlier Winchester levers, rarer Lugers, etc.. The Colts and Winchesters are so old, that there are many pitfalls for the uneducated. The cost of knowledge can be high, and it will be paid many times. I cannot imagine that with only an investment desire, the price of knowledge can be cost effective in the long run without the added return of the pleasure of the chase and acquisition, etc..
Buying from a reputable dealer may be one solution to gain some protection for buying guns as an investment only, but you will not have the knowledge to know whether you have made a good purchase. You may pay too much, but usually, that will be made up over time. The old saying that you cannot pay too much, and can only buy too early, comes to mind.
One solution might be to buy current production Single Actions and Winchesters with factory engraving, etc.. You will know what you are getting and they will be original. The only unknown will be the return. I would guess it to be comparable with inflation at least, perhaps a bit ahead.
Without the passion, and with no particular area of interest to the extent that an inquirey has to be made on these boards as to what to buy, I cannot see buying guns solely as an investment, but that is just my biased opinion.
Vipereater
That would be nun, not Nunn. As in, Audrey Hepburn starring in "Nun's Story." You knew that...
- Life NRA Member
If dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
You make a lot of sense. I sure wish I had read that advice before the last gun show. "You can't pay too much, only buy too early." I would surely have one more acquisition today had I heard that on Friday. Da**! Thank you. As advice goes, that's a keeper. Not that it is true without exception, but in this case it sure was.
- Life NRA Member
If dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
After reading some of these posts, I get the impression that some people think that my post is related to strictly for investing, and not shooting them, that is not so. I think that someone who is going to invest $2000 bucks in a collectable firearm, is expecting some kind of return on his investment. It's fine with me if they want to shoot it or not. It's their choice.
Granted, 2000 bucks is a little on the low side for collecting good old Colts and Winchesters, and other collectable firearms. Even at that, I hesitate to shoot good collectable guns. Especially single actions and levers. You know and I know, if it's a real good piece, you don't want any more wear on it than necessary.
I guess it boils down to how you define collecting, I know someone who just collects corks out of wine bottles.
Who knows, they may be worth a bundle someday, but I wouldn't hold my breath on it.
I'm not on these forums to bust anybody's you know what, just trying to help. If I'm wrong, correct me.
Gino
"If All Else Fails, Read The Directions"
Many old firearms I've never seen (except for pictures). Seldom do they make it to the shows. Few want to sell their prize, a firearm that has been in the family for generations. My last purchase I am most proud of. At the last gun show I was looking for a .38 snubby. I spent Saturday and Sunday looking. Nothing caught my eye, either poor quality or too high priced. As I was about to leave a elderly gentlemen walked in holding a blue box. I was the first to approach him. Guess what? A 25 year old S&W .357 mag snubby with box and all the hardware. He said it had never been fired. I couldn't tell for sure, I could tell that the cylinder had been turned. It was beautiful. I shot him a price like it had been fired and about 33% less than what dealers were asking for highly priced crap. We struck the deal on the spot. I'll probably never forget that moment or that story. To me this revolver is a keeper and it will never be fired. Confirmed at the show from a friend "expert" that it has indeed never been fired and he showed me how he could tell. That's collecting to me. I searched, I found, It has a story. Its part of the collection that passes on to the next generation. I care less if it goes up or down in value. Although it does feel good to know that I didn't have to pay full price.
Don't get me wrong, shooting is cool too. I've got some of the baddest of the bad. (some the wife doesn't know about.....she'll think I'm a nut case : ) ) My wife is getting into shooting and that's very cool.
Congratulations on your new purchase. You have a fine gun there. I have a friend of mine who is a retired police officer and he still has his S&W 19 snubnose. It is in mint condition and I've been after him for the longest time to buy it, but he doesn't want to part with it yet. At least he promised me first crack at it. If I get it, I probably won't shoot it either.
I have a mdl 66 in 3" round butt, which is very scarce, but I shoot that one, anyway.
That was exactly my point about collecting. Some people buy guns to collect them for an investment, some buy to shoot them, and some buy just to have them, not caring if they go up in value or not.
I'm glad you brought up the point about not firing it. That was one of the points I made to JudgeColt about not firing some guns, I could never see anyone taking an unfired gun that is collectable, that they are collecting and start shooting it. There are plenty of other ones to shoot out there.
You say you don't care if it goes up in value or not, but it will and that's a plus. good luck with it.
Gino
"If All Else Fails, Read The Directions"
Any Smith & Wesson is a potential collectable, even those "only" 25 years old! (I have socks older than that!) The M19 Snub is a classic gun, at one time an "in" gun, before everyone finally figured that the .357 and short barrels are not too compatable. Lots of blast and flash and .38 velocities. The current J-frams in .357 are beyond my understanding, although there has been some progress in powders to reduce the blast and flash.
Still, any quality 25-year-old gun as-new-in-the-box gets my attention too, although I generally like them a lot older. Now you will have to start moving back in time to older guns. When I was first starting out and buying new guns, I had an older collector tell me that eventually, I would be buying older guns instead.
He was right, but the new guns I bought 30 years ago are now starting to seem older for some reason. Was I wise to have bought a new Second Generation Colt Single Action Army in 4 3/4-inch for $125 in the late 1960s? Probably, but, if I had put that $125 towards a good First Generation, and a little more, I probably would have been ahead investment-wise today. Still, in that case, I would not have been the original owner, which means a lot. That unfired box of shells I bought with it has now become collectable as well!
Buy what appeals to you. If you are buying the younger stuff, there are not so many sharks about, but do watch out for alterations and refinishes. Have fun.