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454 Casull rifle discussion revisited.....
robsguns
Member Posts: 4,581 ✭✭
A short while back we were talking about the 454 Casull rifle that I wish someone would make in a lever action. Well Rossi does offer it in the Puma line up, as discussed previously. I had reservations about it, and a lengthy discussion has been started on more than one forum site about it. I'm preparing to move, and looking through the old back issues of magazines today, deciding which ones need to be trashed, I found something interesting.
The main problem every one has with the Puma is simple, they believe it wont hold up due to the fact that both Winchester and Marlin would not build a gun in that caliber, so it must not be feasible due to chamber pressures and stresses put on the receiver of a lever action gun, or so it would seem. I DONT THINK SO, not anymore. I've just finished re-reading an article about Wild West Guns (a manufacturer in Alaska). I'll keep it short and to the point. They make a hell of a gun, lever action.
Its offered in .50 Alaskan- 450gr. bonded core bullet travelling at 1918 fps .; the .457 Magnum- 350gr. bonded core bullet travelling at 2,056 fps, and the good old 45-70. Did you read that correctly? Yes, you read that correctly. Those weights and those velocities are much greater than ANY factory 454 Casull load offered. So...and I could be wrong but I seriously doubt it, it would be natural to assume that the pressures generated from these rounds are higher than the 454 Casull.
The point is...these guns that Wild West Guns make, are made from highly modified Marlin 1895SS guns. From the article that I read, there are no modifications made to the receiver to enable it to handle the pressures generated from these rounds. My conclusion is simple, Marlin and Winchester havent abandoned the idea of makeing this caliber of gun due to strength limitations of their receivers, they've done it because its just not something they desire to make, they dont WANT to. That being said, I dont think there is any reason to doubt the ability of the Rossi to handle the 454 Casull, unless someone has some information on it that I havent read yet. The article I read on Wild West Guns can be found in the December 2000 issue of Guns and Ammo, on page 102-105. Think I may take a closer look at that Puma now.
Here is a link to Wild West Guns web site, it has a few problems with how the print comes up on the screen in a few areas. If you see this problem, run your cursor over it and see if the area highlights signifying a link, one of these links is a load data link, so check it out. http://www.wildwestguns.com/
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Edited by - robsguns on 07/20/2002 15:03:55
The main problem every one has with the Puma is simple, they believe it wont hold up due to the fact that both Winchester and Marlin would not build a gun in that caliber, so it must not be feasible due to chamber pressures and stresses put on the receiver of a lever action gun, or so it would seem. I DONT THINK SO, not anymore. I've just finished re-reading an article about Wild West Guns (a manufacturer in Alaska). I'll keep it short and to the point. They make a hell of a gun, lever action.
Its offered in .50 Alaskan- 450gr. bonded core bullet travelling at 1918 fps .; the .457 Magnum- 350gr. bonded core bullet travelling at 2,056 fps, and the good old 45-70. Did you read that correctly? Yes, you read that correctly. Those weights and those velocities are much greater than ANY factory 454 Casull load offered. So...and I could be wrong but I seriously doubt it, it would be natural to assume that the pressures generated from these rounds are higher than the 454 Casull.
The point is...these guns that Wild West Guns make, are made from highly modified Marlin 1895SS guns. From the article that I read, there are no modifications made to the receiver to enable it to handle the pressures generated from these rounds. My conclusion is simple, Marlin and Winchester havent abandoned the idea of makeing this caliber of gun due to strength limitations of their receivers, they've done it because its just not something they desire to make, they dont WANT to. That being said, I dont think there is any reason to doubt the ability of the Rossi to handle the 454 Casull, unless someone has some information on it that I havent read yet. The article I read on Wild West Guns can be found in the December 2000 issue of Guns and Ammo, on page 102-105. Think I may take a closer look at that Puma now.
Here is a link to Wild West Guns web site, it has a few problems with how the print comes up on the screen in a few areas. If you see this problem, run your cursor over it and see if the area highlights signifying a link, one of these links is a load data link, so check it out. http://www.wildwestguns.com/
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Edited by - robsguns on 07/20/2002 15:03:55
Comments
~Secret Select Society Of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets~
Will270win@nraonline.com
Actually the 1895 type rifles in 45-70 are generally held to 40,000cup, however the 454 is quite a bit higher than that, depending on the load.
A Ruger 45-70 on the other hand is in the 50,000cup neighborhood, right up there where the 454 is.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Edited by - robsguns on 07/20/2002 14:27:16
Eric S. Williams
At the Reno convention I asked them about a .454 carbine & they told me they were working on it. If they decide to go ahead they expect to announce it at the next Shot Show. Do note that they are VERY pricey
so start saving up now.
~Secret Select Society Of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets~
Will270win@nraonline.com
What do you mean you stand corrected? I didnt know you needed anything to help you stand. Is it from a war injury, Desert Storm, Somalia?
Gruntled,
Sorry, I couldnt remember back that far. Seems to prove the Marlins can handle the 454 doesn't it?
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
AlleninAlaska
Free men are not equal and equal men are not free
Thou art a smartypants.
~Secret Select Society Of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets~
Will270win@nraonline.com
Since there is no formula for converting psi. to c.u.p. I dont have enough info. to give you a good argument one way or the other, I'll just take your word for it. I do know from my manuals that the 45-70 loading in an 1895 Marlin can be brought as high as 40,000 c.u.p. I use Freedom Arms reloading info for my 454, and from that I can tell you that; using the 10 highest pressures from the starting loads, and the 10 highest pressures for maximum loads- a 300 gr. bullet ranges from an average of 37,340 c.u.p. for a starting load - 52,918 c.u.p. for a max. load. Now... the highest velocity obtained from any of those max loads is 1780 fps, for the 454. On the other hand the 45-70 has a 40,000 c.u.p. max, (so they say), in the 1895 models, and they say that a 300 gr. bullet from the barrel is within those max c.u.p. figures and moving out at 2,100 fps. So then, long winded I know, if I reload and load up some loads for my 1895 (454 Casull if they make it) Marlin, I can very safely make some loads that can be shot from it.
I also want to note, that one of these loads I used for my avgs. which was below 40,000 c.u.p. boasted a very nice velocity of 1505 fps., thats a 300 gr. bullet with 24.0 gr. of N110 powder. That is a very satisfying velocity for both handgun and rifle shooter with hunting in mind. What a nice combination that would be to have both rifle and handgun with that load.
Now then also note what I posted originally. These figures- .50 Alaskan- 450gr. bonded core bullet travelling at 1918 fps .; the .457 Magnum- 350gr. bonded core bullet travelling at 2,056 fps.
I dont believe that from these size bullets at these speeds, there is any way possible these rounds arent producing more c.u.p. (40,000) than a 300gr. bullet coming from a 45-70 in a model 1895. I dont think its possible, although I have no data to support my theory. I just dont see how a bigger diameter bullet, .50 Alaskan, weighing 150 gr. more than a 300 gr. 45-70, and moving only 200 fps slower could be producing less c.u.p. than the 45-70 round. Even if they somehow do, loads designated for the lever action 454 can still be assembled safely for the gun. I know that the SAMMI is 65,000 for the 454 Casull. But, Freedom Arms doesnt even use load data that high. We have 45-70s out there that arent designed to handle all 45-70 ammo., but the lawyers let us make factory ammo more powerful than they can safely handle, why not do the same for the 454, as its obvious the Marlin can handle the lower c.u.p. loads of 37,000 c.u.p. to 40,000 c.u.p. That isnt too much to ask of the 'Powers to Be', is it?
Sorry for the long post.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
The 457 Magnum is just a 45-70 case that is about 1/10 of an inch longer than the 45-70. The 50 Alaskan is the 348 Winchester case blown out and straight walled. The 50 Alaskan was created by Harold Johnson of Kenai Alaska, a home taught gunsmith, and was built using the Winchester Model 71 Lever gun that at one time was chambered for the 348 Winchester.
If you want a Marlin that will handle the 37,000 to 40,000 CUP loads for a loaded down 454, why not just buy one in 45 Colt and load the Colt to higher pressures?
AlleninAlaska
Free men are not equal and equal men are not free
Edited by - aglore on 07/20/2002 20:22:24
Its not my goal to have a gun that can shoot a down loaded 454 Casull cartridge, I'd like to see Winchester or Marlin make a gun that can handle the cartridge, however, I think Marlin already has. Also, the main thing I'd been hopeing to show or learn is whether or not the Puma is going to hold up if I purchase one of them. I've been working on this off and on this afternoon, and I went back to Wild West Guns' site. I had looked at the .50 Alaskan load data earlier and saw that they didnt have pressure figures and left it at that, but I have now found that they list the pressure figures for the 457. GREAT NEWS!! My theory was correct. I dont know what the pressures are on the .50 Alaskan, but its all there in black and white for the 457. The max load they show for the 457 has a c.u.p. of 45,000. Now one would naturally assume that the .50 Alaskan is even greater, maybe not, but probably. Now we're putting the capabilities of the gun up where its a viable candidate for the pressures normally encountered in the 454. If it can handle 45,000 it may be able to handle more. We need to see what the .50 Alaskan produces for pressures, then I believe we will have our answer, as I believe it has to be around 50,000 c.u.p.
Here is the link to the loading data for the 457.
http://www.wildwestguns.com/Reloading/457Data/457data.html
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Edited by - robsguns on 07/20/2002 21:02:58
Edited by - robsguns on 07/20/2002 21:16:48
Reason: terminal velocity is dependant on the constant acceleration
imparted to the bullet by the expanding gases .....
Do some experimenting without exeding loading charts limits ,you will be amazed with the stuff you will find ......
Use different speed of burn and quantitys ,some slower burning powders can give better acceleration to heavier bullets wile the contrary to lighter ones ,just work it out.......
Good...? , Bad...? Who cares ? as long I am the one with the the gun.....
AlleninAlaska
Free men are not equal and equal men are not free
No you did not mis-read that, I'd settle for that if I had to, but it wouldnt be what I WANTED. As far as the factory ammo I dont need it, I reload my own you know, but I figure that a rifle wont be made in that caliber unless there is ammo made for it, and the rifle wont be made if they have to tool up a whole new receiver for it. What I was hopeing to prove is that the existing receivers will handle the cartridge, both the Puma, and the Winch. & Marlin guns. The whole force behind my desire for a rifle in a 454 Casull is so I could have the versatility of ammo for both a rifle and a handgun while out and about without having to worry of carrying ammo for both guns, as some people prefer to do. It would be nice to be able to shoot full power loads through the rifle, but not a requirement. It will do what is needed with reduced loads. I REALLY LIKE THE 454. Having it in a rifle would make it so much more easy to shoot, and the accuracy would be incredible if my Ruger is any indication. Thats why my desire for a two gun battery with the same ammo, in what I believe a caliber strong enough for darn near anything I will shoot. I get all teary eyed and choked up just thinking about the possibilities.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
I was looking at Jim West data for the 400 grain bullet and he used exactly 1.6 grains more H322 than I do in my 45-70 with the 400 grain bullet. Not enough to amount to a hill of beans.
Does Marlin make a 45 Colt lever gun? Buy one and have it rechambered to 454.
Just had a brainstorm. Find yourself a Winchester 94 Big Bore in either 375 Winchester, 307 Winchester or 356 winchester. The rim size on those cases is .506. Open the bolt face to the .512 of the 454 Casull and rebarrel. Those guns were made to function in the 45,000 to 48,000 PSI or so range range. I think the 454 will fit in the tube magazine and the gate. Don't know how it will function in the carrier. Just an idea.
AlleninAlaska
Free men are not equal and equal men are not free
Edited by - aglore on 07/20/2002 22:40:25
I have some 45 Colt brass, think that might be the next project after I adjust the front sight on the Swede., after I adjust the sight on the Makarov. Then again, maybe tomorrow. Thanks for the exchange of information today Allen, its been great, really, I like these discussions. This is one great source of info. having so many minds that think alike or at least about the same things, all in one place. I'm about ready to hit the rack. If you get more good ideas, I'll read them tomorrow. Good night.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Eric S. Williams
AlleninAlaska
Free men are not equal and equal men are not free
Eric S. Williams
You really know your stuff huh? Wonder how that would work? I smell smoke, must be my brain trying to kick in again. Darn it, I hear the books calling me again, they are telling me to read me Ryan, read me. I'm an incurable gun addict.
E.Williams, You are not being ignored, Allen has been trying to get me to think like him about the 45 Colt for several months now. I am just an incurable man when it comes to the idea of a two gun outfit in the same caliber.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
Edited by - robsguns on 07/20/2002 22:51:10
Eric S. Williams
Edited by - E.Williams on 07/20/2002 23:46:24
wasted powder and extra noise only ....
Get a custom made Sharp "36 Inch Barrel" and play with the slower burning powders (more quantity) and heavier slugs .....
I dont have to get to the technical deep stuff to make my point clear.... it becomes evident in the field ....
JD
Good...? , Bad...? Who cares ? as long I am the one with the the gun.....
Allen, we live in a very litigious society, If it were me I would caveat your post on rechambering a .45 colt Marlin to .454 Casull. Someone may take your advice and sue if anything goes wrong. Personally I would not suggest it, let the engineers do that kind of stuff. After all those guys should know what the rifle can handle.
Personally, I think that the twist rate in the .45 colt is not compatable with the .454 (1 in 18" vs 1 in 24"). I think/fear this would generate much greater pressures in a 20" carbine than the 60,000+ c.u.p. noted for that of handguns with 7.5 inch barrels.
Ryan - I too would love to have a rifle in .454 but I am not willing to experiment on my own. I kind of like all my body parts where they are currently, and in working order. Of note, Browning does make their 1885 High Wall in .454 Casull. However, a single shot rifle kind of defeats the purpose of having a pistol round in a rifle.
Lastly, I too wish Marlin would make carbine in .454 Casull, but for now I am willing to wait.
Boomer
"Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as it is by the obstacles which one has overcome while trying to succeed."
I appreciate your comments on the topic, and it is sound advice not lightly taken. Allen was saying to rebarrel, he didnt mean for anything to be the same in a custom job except for the receiver, which would be a more stout receiver meant for a rifle cartridge. I think he has a good idea there. I might even be inclined to have a gun made custom for me, if it were more cost effective. I'm on a budget, cant afford that kind of work, and the reasons for having it made arent good enough to justify the high cost of it.
SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC
quote: Does Marlin make a 45 Colt lever gun? Buy one and have it rechambered to 454.
Boomer
"Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as it is by the obstacles which one has overcome while trying to succeed."