Arming the air crews....

spclark

Assuming the new security implementation prohibits anyone BUT air crew personnel from wearing Kevlar (and / or denim?), what'd be a good choice for caliber in an airplane to prevent what we've now seen is possible? Does anyone know what the Israeli's use?

nmyers@home.com

I don't know about the Israeli's, but I seem to recall that the US air marshalls carried .38 special revolvers with wadcutters. I don't believe that they ever fired a shot in anger.Neal

edharold

I like the idea, the captain is the commander of the aircraft. If anyone gets to the flight deck no action is too extreme. There would need to be some experimenting, but Glasser Safety rounds might work. The original sky marshalls reported used 44 Specials.

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"They that would give up liberty to obtain safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"Benj. Franklin, 1759

landis

Saxonpig,I don't think the idea is to win a gunbattle and to hurt the fewest passengers. The Idea is to give the crew the absolute maximum power that they can have to prevent the control of the aircraft from being wresteled from them, and then the aircraft used as a weapon of mass destruction, killing thousands more. Guns fired from a skymarshal or pilot don't seem to make much difference to me as to the dammage on the aircraft, in fact, the pilots would know what to avoid hitting if that were possible. I suppose they would be used only to defend the cockpit, not to leave the cockpit and fight in the cabin. The deterrence value of knowing there are two or three guns behind the cockpit door will be significant in preventing the cockpit from being stormed after the door kicked down. El Al has not had a hijacking in decades.

Shootist3006

Saxonpig, your got it right ('highjackers need to be dtopped before reaching the flight deck') and wrong about not arming aircrews. I suspect that you like my suggestion but I propose arming the PASSENGERS. Pass out guns just like headsets, deringers to coach and Chief's Specials to 1st class, all loaded with suitable frangible ammo. At the same time, you would have to stop serving booze for obvious reasons.Alternately, let any passenger with a CCW permit fly armed.Pilots could be armed or not, their option; but I want to be able to defend myself.

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Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis

badboybob

So what is your solution Saxon? Would you allow the nut cases their choice of box cutters and the pilots/passengers their inability to defend themselves? There is so much misunderstanding of the use of firearms on pressurized a/c. If frangible bullets are used the crazies will be incapicated without damage to the aircraft. If (God forbid) an innocent passenger is shot stopping the crazies, how does this compare with thousands of deaths in the WTC? Let's get real folks. We are at war with the craziest people in human history. When they try to attack us there is only answer to that attack - KILL THE BASTARDS!

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So many guns to buy. So little money.

spclark

Saxonpig: you seem to be in the minority despite your very clearly espoused position.I just checked CNN.com & they have their "informal" poll currently asking "Should Pilots on US Flights be Equipped with Handguns?" The results seem to be almost 3:1 in favor....Hopefully the thoughts contributed here today might help the FAA to decide how best to accomplish the task at hand - atleast in part: preventing ANY recurrence of the events of 9/11/2001.My thanks to all those offering up information here; forums such as this are indeed part of what makes the United States what it is.[This message has been edited by spclark (edited 09-25-2001).]

duster68

Saxon, I can't believe that you, as a lawful, American gun owner, are talking about a lack of trust of gun owners and law enforcement. This is exactly the same attitude that has our federal govt. and state legislatures taking guns out of our hands! You obviously don't live in CA., where our 2nd amendment rights are being taken away, sometimes without us law-abiding citizens even knowing it. How does it make me, a lawful American citizen, feel? Mistrusted and unsafe! What I'm I doing about all this? I'm breaking the law! Sometimes I've had to stoop to carrying a gun in my car, unlawfully, to feel safe on my way to work in the one of the roughest areas of South Central L.A.. I'll be damned if I let some piece of * make a widow out of my wife! Your view on this is completely screwed! I can except not trusting John Q. armed citizen on a plane, but not even a police officer or federal marshall???!!! By that same logic, why not take away guns from law enforcement, everywhere. If the possibility of accidently shooting passengers scares you, that can just as easily happen on a city street, crowded mall, or anywhere else. I think we all agree that we are at our most vulnerable in an airplane, which makes it that more important that we get someone in these planes who can protect us and make us feel safe.

landis

Of course they will miss, the question is that if the pilots will kill all but one passenger, isn't that better than the Airforce shooting them down and killing all of them when the terrorist takes control and Kills 5000 more???

royc38

I have the answer for this. As you can imagine I am as pro gun as anybody on this panel but that is not the answer. Here is the answer: Have the cockpit insulated from the rest of the plane so if it is highjacked the pilot can hit a switch that will release a knockout gas through the cabin. This will knock everybody out and when they land they can deal will the terrorists at their leisure. Simple eh. Now I know someone is going to say what about the legality but I say if I can save 150+ people and risk the health of 2 or 3 people with a medical condition I will take that chance.

range

Israelis use a 22 Beretta

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landis

Saxon,You still haven't addressed the issue of taking out the Sears tower or Empire State building, next time. Ten crazies in the backWILL overpower the Flight Attendents and kick down the cockpit door and kill the flight crew, with a few to spare. A stun gun will have consequences with the electronics that haven't been explored yet. Ten people? Probably not, even with a stun gun.nbhj

semi-auto

Certainly, the items to receive corrective action are (1) a sane approach to improving airport security (access to aircraft). (2) hardening cockpit bulkheads and doors to prevent unauthorized entry, or shoot-throughs. These other so-called remedies are frought with dangers to civil liberty and safety.

njretcop

Waaaay back in the 70's when I was still a cop, I knew a sky marshal. NMEYERS post is the closest to the weapon that they carried. It was built on the Colt Lawman Mklll .38 frame and called the "Air Crew". It had a plastic cylinder that held six rounds that could not be removed from the cylinder. When the cylinder was empty, you had to change the whole cylinder. The bullets were made from plaster and produced about 25 to 29 fps.The idea was that the marshals could train with the regular Colt Lawman .38 to get fimiliar with the weapon, the only difference between the two was the plastic cylinder. Each Sky Marshal carried two cylinders. I have a photo of one, but don't know how to add photo's on this board. Forgive me, I'm old, lol.

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Guns don't kill people, it's the bullets, stupidI am the NRA, the KABA, NJ Area Rep for the 2ampd, and the AARP :(njretcop@copmail.com

bhale187

SaxonIf anyone, be it LEO or citizen in self defense, uses a firearm ANYWHERE and he/she misses target and hits a bystander he/she is instantly villified and second guessed by every arm-chair expert and news report forever. Hell, if you're a cop most the time even if you hit only the intended target you are second guessed by the media and administration forever as to whether you did everything posible to stop the suspect before resorting to deadly force.We could require frangible ammo that is designed is to break up on impact with solid surface to avoid airliner damage.We could require psych test and shooting qualifications.So why should a pilot, LEO, or citizen with CCW not be allowed to carry a firearm with frangible ammo on a plane? I'm yet to hear how airplanes should be any different.