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Here's One For You! What Would You Do?

nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,085 ******
edited July 2002 in General Discussion
I was working the July 4 celebration, mostly PR stuff, smile, be seen, and so on.

Bozo from out of town has a bicycle on the grounds, pushing it around. On the handlebar are two American flags. Dragging on the ground behind the bike, attached by a piece of wire, is a Mexican flag.

A number of complaints have come in from people offended by this display. A number of the complaints have also included threats to harm the bozo if he doesn't stop.

Our community has a fairly large Hispanic population, mostly first and second generation immigrants from Mexico.

What would you do?



SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net
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Comments

  • RosieRosie Member Posts: 14,525 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Shake his hand?
  • Warpig883Warpig883 Member Posts: 6,459
    edited November -1
    Warn him that his personal safety is in grave danger if he keeps it up. What about disturbing the peace? He is obviously just trying to start a fight.
  • William81William81 Member Posts: 25,507 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My answer will be the wrong one, but I would warn him of the complaints and if that did not work, I would be calling for back up because I would need some help cleaning up the mess after he got the crap kicked out of him.......

    Guns only have two enemies: Rust and Liberals....
  • dheffleydheffley Member Posts: 25,000
    edited November -1
    I think I would warn him that the laws in America allow him to do just what he's doing, but it allows them to do the same with our flag. It would be better for him to stop provoking a fight before one of them begins to provoke him. No one wins.

    Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!
  • guns-n-painthorsesguns-n-painthorses Member Posts: 6,462 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Who cares? Let him do what he wants, and if a fight breaks out, well then you have a good reason for checking green cards.



    Got Guns?
  • RockinURockinU Member Posts: 248
    edited November -1
    C'mon guys. If you have a mexican background you can't be proud of your flag? Doesn't it piss you off when you see those freaks buning our flag on TV? I can't believe that you people are really siding with someone who is obviously a trouble maker just because he is making that trouble against an ethnicity not your own...really, try not to appear so bigoted
  • sodbustersodbuster Member Posts: 2,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm sure that I'm not the only poster that has seen Japaneese flags placed under Harleys at Sturgis. Some of these older bikes have been known to leak a bit of oil from time to time. These people were making a statement as was your guy with the Mexican flag. This is America and we have the freedoms to express our opinions. Now, I don't know smart it would be to drag a Mexican flag around a bunch of Mexicans.But, can you arrest somebody for being stupid?

    "Just my opinion."
  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If you are Mexican and you are here in America then you are American and you have a new flag. DHEFFLEY--Amen brother. What you said and then tell them that it's America's response to "La Raza".

    Edited by - idsman75 on 07/06/2002 01:16:39
  • austin247austin247 Member Posts: 375
    edited November -1
    Definitely remind him that if he's gonna fight one p.o.'ed Hispanic, he's probably gonna end up fighting the whole family. Unfortunately, it will be the LEO's on scene who would have to break it all up.

    If you could arrest for stupidity, about half my county would be in jail and the other half would be waiting their turns.
  • RockinURockinU Member Posts: 248
    edited November -1
    Man that's no kidding, I hate to even drive through Travis County for fear of getting some of it on me.
  • .250Savage.250Savage Member Posts: 812 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Much as I hate to say it, I would say this is grounds for one of those "little chats" cops are famous for, to wit: "Look, I know the constitution guarentees your right to express yourself, but since we will have to clean up after the fight starts" etc. I am as steamed as any patriot when Mex's demand that we learn spanish rather than that they do their civic duty and learn the language of their adopted country (English), the cops' job is to minimize bloodshed.

    I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.--Voltaire~Secret Select Society Of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets~
  • nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,085 ******
    edited November -1
    Here is how it played out:

    Texas Penal Code, Section 42.01 (a)(2) was invoked, and a warning given. That statute covers "an offensive gesture or display (that)
    tends to incite a breach of the peace." That statute has REPEAL written all over it, but it is still in place. We just don't use it much.

    He was told that he could use his argument that it is his right to expression as a defense in court. In other words, he might beat the rap, but not the ride.

    He was also told that we (the police) did not care to have to make paper after someone got angry enough to kick his sorry butt.

    Then one of the brass present got creative and invented a new city ordinance...You can't bring bicycles on the fairgrounds. You can
    stay, but the bike has to go.

    He left.

    He was trying to make a point about the large numbers of Mexicans who have come here, and won't let go of their own culture and language. Maybe he did have a point, but there isn't a lot he can do to change things. Time will, as the children of recent immigrants grow up, but the fact is that the Mexicans are here to stay.

    There is no "checking green cards," anymore. INS is absolutely not interested in picking up illegals, unless they are in jail for a felony offense. We bust a few now and them with fake green cards and charge them with Forged Government Document, a Third Degree Felony, but I have yet to see INS come around.

    The punk was a skinhead type in appearance. Young, peeled scalp, skinny, big chip on shoulder. Black t-shirt, BDU trousers, lace-up boots. Missing the tattoos, though. Usually they are too chicken to venture out alone.

    SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net
  • NighthawkNighthawk Member Posts: 12,022 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thank God he didnt,but this guy could have put you in a very dangerous position.Im glad things worked out well.




    Stay safe.

    Rugster
  • nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,085 ******
    edited November -1
    I did a little more research in the old Texas Penal Code, and you know what I found? It is illegal to desecrate a United States flag or a Texas flag, but not any other flags.

    I am glad we did not have to arrest the knothead, but I think the Disorderly Conduct statute would have covered it.



    SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net
  • The LawThe Law Member Posts: 2,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ........o.k.,.......you cut my reply........now he will never see it........that's sneaky......

    "What we have here... is Failure to Communicate"
    "The Board Law"
    "You fought *The Law* and *The Law* won"
  • nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,085 ******
    edited November -1
    Keep the language civil and your posts will remain.

    SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the best gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net
  • The LawThe Law Member Posts: 2,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    .......the language was civil.......who are you trying to fool....

    "What we have here... is Failure to Communicate"
    "The Board Law"
    "You fought *The Law* and *The Law* won"
  • The LawThe Law Member Posts: 2,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ......maybe your just.......a little out of sorts ....because i've rained....on some of your....alter ego's.....

    "What we have here... is Failure to Communicate"
    "The Board Law"
    "You fought *The Law* and *The Law* won"
  • 96harley96harley Member Posts: 3,992 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Good post Nunn. That's one of those situations in which common sense rules. I wouldn't want to stomp on or degrade another person's flag. I know how deeply it cuts me when someone dishonors mine. I look at the doer as having no morals or whose IQ barely supercedes his shoe size.

    The INS is useless to some extent because the same goes here,
    when you locate illegals unless they've committed a felony they want nothing to do with them. I agree with previous post about anybody coming here to live. LEARN ENGLISH. Don't burden me with the cost of having to learn your language, whatever it might be.
  • roysharoysha Member Posts: 749 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    As much as it truly pains me to agree with Saxon Pig, I feel he said it very well and I agree.
  • mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mr. Law....please take this as it is intended. Not a criticism, just an observation. Granted...I've been known to indulge in a bit of "three dot journalism" myself, but you seem to have a fetish.

    Mudge the alert

    I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS!
  • BlueTicBlueTic Member Posts: 4,072
    edited November -1
    Not to get into intent or labels about hate - but this was clearly a provocation based on hate. I must agree that if you are an american, with whatever background, you should learn english and not make the majority adapt to your culture. Very nicely handled Sir Nunn.

    IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY RIGHTS - GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY (this includes politicians)
  • FitzFitz Member Posts: 258 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm shocked!! Inciting a riot, disturbing the peace?!! Common. Look, this guy is obviously an idiot, but that's exactly what Freedom of Speech and Expression means! Just cause some of you are LEOs and don't want to have to deal with some of the crappy calls, IT IS YOUR JOB to protect the rights of everyone, not just the majority. Legislate, legislate, legislate! If it was on private property I would agree, but that little turd may pay taxes too. You guys should think your arguments through. Is negative campaigning slander? Is flying a Rebel flag a hate crime? Is having a bumper sticker that says, "My President is Charleton Heston" treason? You LEOs should be required to read (and understand) the Constitution, Federalist and Anti-Federalist papers before going out into the field. This is ridiculous! Excuse me while I go puke!

    Fitz
  • dheffleydheffley Member Posts: 25,000
    edited November -1
    Fitz,

    With all due respect, I don't think the constitution gives anyone the right to provoke another. Even if it does, low life instigators should be put in their place by the public before the LEO's are even involved. I'll excuse you while you go puke again.

    Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!
  • FitzFitz Member Posts: 258 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well you're provoking me by disagreeing. Should that be illegal? Again, this is not about private property. What if it is was 10,000 pissed off Americans protesting Mexico's open-border policy with us because a nuke gets smuggled through, or perhaps because their Army, that regularly crosses our border and shoots at our Border Patrol guys actually kills one? Would it be OK then?

    Fitz
  • dheffleydheffley Member Posts: 25,000
    edited November -1
    Grow up!

    Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!
  • FitzFitz Member Posts: 258 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Move to Canada!

    Fitz
  • dheffleydheffley Member Posts: 25,000
    edited November -1
    Been there. It's more fun here pulling your chain. I was making a point for you. LEO's have the duty to keep the peace. I can twist and pull your chain until you snap. What good does it do? All people have the right to speak their truth, what ever it is. Disturbing a public function is at least rude. This guy was about to start trouble, and it was Nunn's "JOB" to head it off. I don't know you, but I know you have an issue somewhere that would bring an illegal responce from you. Maybe someone messing with your wife or kids. It would be a cops "JOB" to stop it before it lead to you reacting in an illegal way. When they help you, they are the good guys. When they get in your way, they're the SS. Can't have it both ways.

    Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!
  • FitzFitz Member Posts: 258 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    As far as pulling my chain goes, do you have a point you want to make or are you just a sophist who hangs out in forums?

    I disagree that LEOs have a duty to keep the peace at the expense of citizens' rights. Did you hear about the applicant to the Mystic, CT Police Department who was denied entrance because he was too intelligent? The courts upheld the decision. That says a lot about LEOs, like it or not.

    I agree that everyone has the right to express their own truth to a "certain degree". Screaming "Fire!" in a crowded theatre is an example where that right is limited, but not in this case with the guy on the bike. Rude though it was, it was his right. Surely you don't want LEOs arresting people for being rude, do you? Ever been tail-gated by one? Now that's not only rude but abuse of power and possibly entrapment depending on his motive.

    Now about my "having an issue that would bring an illegal response". Of course! Every man can be pushed too far. There is a big difference between morality and illegality. Remember that our rights as Americans are God-given, not law given. They can't be swept away by some stupid majority. Just as juries have an obligation to dismiss cases based on unconstitutional laws, LEOs have an obligation to know the rights of the people they work for.

    You said, "Maybe someone messing with your wife or kids. It would be a cops "JOB" to stop it before it lead to you reacting in an illegal way."
    Do actually think I should wait until a cop showed up before reacting, out of fear of doing something illegal?

    If I were a cop called to that situation, I would choose .250Savage's solution. But I also wouldn't stop and get a doughnut if he ignored me and got attacked.

    Fitz
  • FitzFitz Member Posts: 258 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    By the way, Nunn. Thanks for the provocative post.

    Fitz
  • dheffleydheffley Member Posts: 25,000
    edited November -1
    Fitz,

    Re-read your last reply. You can't have it both ways. Either the cops are here to stop trouble or they have no right interferring in your right to be and idiot or commit a criminal act. Your crotch is going to get hurt if you keep straddling the fence. One side or the other.

    Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!
  • FitzFitz Member Posts: 258 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The cops are not here to stop trouble but rather to protect the individual rights of Americans as outlined in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, both from other citizens and from Government. There is no right to not being offended. I'm not on both sides of the issue, it's that you don't understand the nature of your rights.

    Fitz
  • The LawThe Law Member Posts: 2,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ...or to spray rat's with Pepper...and not even have the "Common Courtesy" to...give them a...

    "What we have here... is Failure to Communicate"
    "The Board Law"
    "You fought *The Law* and *The Law* won"
  • dheffleydheffley Member Posts: 25,000
    edited November -1
    Now I understand! They didn't have the right to stop the attack on Sept. 11. Only be reactive to crime, not proactive to stop it! Heck kid, that's a great idea! Is your name Bill "Fitz" Clinton?

    Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!
  • 223believer223believer Member Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    dheffley, fitz is getting the better of you in this one. Look
    back to nunn's second post, where he talks about how the statute
    he used has repeal written all over it, and how the fellow would
    surely beat the rap had he brought him in. There's a reason for
    that: what the guy was doing is constitutionally protected free
    speech. Yeah, he was being an *, and he was being rude, but
    he was not yelling fire in a crowded movie theater. If nunn had
    any job to do, it was to allow this yahoo to make his statement
    and to stop any fellows who would punch him for doing so.

    Hey, lets think about it this way: Yes, you have second amendment
    rights, but we're going to take away all your high capacity magazines,
    your assault rifles, and your automatic weapons. After all, those
    things make some people uncomfortable. Sucks, doesn't it? Well,
    that fellow is sort of like the guy who wants to own a full auto
    AK with a folding stock, bayonet on the front, and a magazine full of
    Black Talon bullets. He wants to push his rights all the way to the limits. And nunn said sorry fellow, you don't get to do that.

    Please keep in mind that I understand all the problems nunn had to deal with on that day, and that had it been me wearing the shield I probably would have done the same thing he did. Keep in mind also that had I been a bystander and seen that fellow ride by, I probably would have told him what he's doing is rude and idiotic. At the same time, what he's doing is--thank God--allowed in America.
  • FitzFitz Member Posts: 258 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well, I used the word "cop". I wasn't referring to the FBI. But if what you mean is that I am suggesting that no American citizen's rights should be violated in the interest of preventing a crime, then the answer is "yes".

    Sept. 11th was not caused by LEOs not having enough power, but rather because of the Federal Government's ineptitude in protecting us from invaders. We let far too many scum into the US, and reward too many with citizenship for "signing in" even after being here for years illegally.

    Let's get specific in this discussion. If we just have a general negative feeling about eachother but never talk specifics, it would be a waste of a perfectly good Sunday evening.

    Are you suggesting that police and/or the FBI and INS had their hands tied in preventing 9/11? If so, how? And what would you (have) change(d)?

    Fitz
  • dheffleydheffley Member Posts: 25,000
    edited November -1
    223,

    The only good arguement I've given him is it's an LEO's job to head off trouble, which I believe. I have been playing on his emmotion from his first post just to provke him. Each post I have given was just to inflame his previous emmotions. He made such a passionate first post, I just wanted to see how far I could take it. Sorry for the stirring. If you read Fitz other post, you'll see he's really a pretty well rounded guy.

    The Devil made me do it!

    Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!
  • dheffleydheffley Member Posts: 25,000
    edited November -1
    Hey Fitz,

    I was just playing a fish on the line. Hang around here and you'll see that I have the tendency to stir someone who makes a passionate post. Just funning you along. You've got your head on straight, you just let emmotions take over in the heat of battle. My guess, your still young and full of spirit. Wish I was.

    Got ya'!

    Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!
  • The LawThe Law Member Posts: 2,287 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ...dheffley...you need to correct your spelling of "Emotion"...

    "What we have here... is Failure to Communicate"
    "The Board Law"
    "You fought *The Law* and *The Law* won"
  • FitzFitz Member Posts: 258 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    dheffley, you are a sophist, then. I think you need a beer and a point. You don't by any chance work in the media do you?

    sophistry
    noun
    FORMAL DISAPPROVING OR SPECIALIZED
    the clever use of arguments which seem true but are really false, and are used in this way to deceive people
    http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=sophistry*1+0

    Fitz
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