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Fight Over Gun Law Exemption for Officers

Josey1Josey1 Member Posts: 9,598 ✭✭
edited December 2001 in General Discussion
Fight Over Gun Law Exemption for Officers Dr. Michael S. Brown Dec. 4, 2001 Congress is currently considering a bill, HR 218, which would exempt current and former law enforcement officers from state laws that prohibit the carrying of concealed handguns. While this idea has been around for years, post 9-11 fears make passage seem more likely in this session of Congress. Supporters hope people will take comfort in the thought that a fellow airline passenger might be a vacationing police officer who is discreetly armed. The strongest support for HR 218 comes from police unions and law enforcement associations. Cops are justifiably concerned that criminals they once arrested will seek revenge on them or their families. Laws that prohibit them from carrying a concealed handgun outside their own jurisdiction or after retirement are seen as creating undue hardship.On the surface, it would seem that only the most extreme anti-gun radicals would oppose such a practical measure. Gun rights organizations should be natural supporters of a law that would put more guns where they are needed. Unfortunately, the issue is complicated by difficult political factors.Decades ago, most law enforcement organizations were strong supporters of the traditional American right to keep and bear arms. The modern political landscape is much different. Many of the police organizations that support HR 218 have been highly visible allies of the anti-gun lobby. Cynical observers have pointed out certain self-serving aspects of this political shift, although that is beyond the scope of this column.In particular, these organizations have vehemently opposed laws that require states to issue concealed handgun permits to civilians who pass a rigorous background check and meet various requirements. The laws have been a great success in 33 states and millions of permit holders have proven beyond any doubt that they can be trusted to carry their sidearms responsibly. Although rank-and-file officers generally support civilian gun rights, statements by high-ranking police spokespersons against concealed carry laws have been dishonest, vicious and mean-spirited. In the eyes of gun rights supporters, these leaders of law enforcement groups promote themselves as being a special class of human being, superior to those who are not part of their cop culture. This tendency to divide the population into "them and us" is now coming back to haunt them, because many politically active gun rights groups are planning to oppose HR 218. Gun owners remember the insulting claims that permit applicants were "cop wannabes," that more guns in civilian hands would cause minor disputes to end in shootings, and that blood would run in the streets if lowly civilians were ever allowed to carry guns. In reality, the number of mistaken shootings, and the number of deliberate murders, is much lower for this group of citizens than for law enforcement officers. Research has also shown that concealed carry laws are associated with a significant reduction in violent crime.In addition to hard feelings from previous encounters, there are other problems causing gun groups to oppose HR 218. First, the law does not change FAA regulations prohibiting firearms in aircraft cabins, so it would have no effect on hijackings unless other changes are made.Second, many gun rights activists are strong supporters of states' rights. Using federal power to override state gun laws may be unconstitutional. Third, it is an open secret that many officers simply ignore laws that restrict their right to carry outside their jurisdiction, relying on professional courtesy to keep them out of trouble. Granting them a special exemption might make their lives easier, but with many off-duty officers already carrying both legally and illegally, it may not result in a dramatic change.There is also concern that the special exemption would increase the sense that law enforcement officers are a superior class. Pro-gun groups point out that everyone has a right to self-defense. A better option, they believe, would be to repeal current laws that infringe on that basic human right.The proposal to exempt officers from state gun laws may be a useful crime-fighting measure, but it will be debated in a highly politicized environment that bears the scars of past conflicts. Dr. Michael S. Brown is an optometrist and member of Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws, www.dsgl.org. He may be reached at rkba2000@yahoo.com. http://www.newsmax.com/commentarchive.shtml?a=2001/12/4/004524

Comments

  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    My sentiments exactly. If I cannot be trusted to carry, off duty police officers should not be trusted to carry. I understand the old argument that they might encounter an ex collar, but everyone has to deal with dangerous situations without benefit of the tools to defend ourselves. My work regularly takes me to Camden, where I cant carry, to Wilmington, where I cant carry, and NYC, where I cant carry. These are dangerous places,and if the fact is that I cannot defend myself in an obviously dangerous place, where harm is very possible, why should cops enjoy that right.There are 1000s of husbands and boyfriends of ex-lovers that would kill me if they saw me, but I cant carry.
    Happiness is a warm gun
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    That should be brought to the attention to those sponsoring the bill. "Leos carry now when off duty even though it is illegal, and the fact that they do carry off duty does not really make the streets safer. Therefore, there is really no societal need for them to carry off duty, therefore it should not be legal for them to carry off duty"Basically they carry now off duty, and it isnt doing society a bit of good.
    Happiness is a warm gun
  • Shootist3006Shootist3006 Member Posts: 4,171
    edited November -1
    I would worry a lot about LEO's carrying outside of their own state. A recent survey showed that LEO's are far more likely to be convicted of a fellony than civilian CCW holders. I would allow civilian CCW holders to carry interstate today but will have to seriously consider LEO's.
    Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis
  • njretcopnjretcop Member Posts: 7,975
    edited November -1
    salzo, I love you like a brother, and I look forward to meeting you in person on Saturday, if you can make it. All I ask of you however, is when you respond to threads, know your subject, or ask questions. For example, police officers here in NJ do not carry illegally when off duty. The FACT is that in most towns and cities you are required to carry off duty and can be fined or suspended for not doing so! I don't know where you get your information, but it is wrong. I can't tell you how many times, (that I know of personally, not hearsay) an off duty police officer has prevented a crime from happening and have made very good arrests. So forget the idea that it doesn't serve society. (If you wish, at the gun show I will provide you with the name and phone number of a person whose life was saved by an off duty police officer carrying a gun.)I just wanted you to know facts, so that you can make more informed decisions. You can tell me to go to he++ if you wish, but I will still love you and all persons seeking to once and for all obtain our "right" to keep and bear arms.There is nothing wrong with off duty and retired police officers carrying their guns across this great country, JUST AS THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH ALL CCW HOLDERS TO DO SO, until the day comes when we don't need permits to take advantage of what the founding fathers intended in the 2 amendment.God bless you and our wonderful country!-Charlie
    It's the stuff dreams are made of AngelMember: NRA, RKBA, NJSPBA, NJ area rep for the 2AMPD and the AARP. njretcop@copmail.com
  • twinstwins Member Posts: 647 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I bet you can't count how many times a ccw holder prevented a crime either. Maybe its because its not as highly reported because they prevented a crime while at the same time committing one from being in a place where carrying concealed was not allowed. I cannot carry except for the reasons stated on my permit. Therefore I do not. Where I live self defense is not a "valid" reason.Edited to say that I am not negating off duty/retired officers from carrying, just that "citizens" do the same countless time also. [This message has been edited by twins (edited 12-04-2001).]
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I am not going to tell you to go to h@#$ charlie, but I am going to say you are absolutely misrepresenting what I said.Number one, I did not say that all police carry or are allowed to carry concealed when off duty. The post dealt with making a law that would allow off duty cops to carry. I did not say that all police carry(or are allowed to) when off duty. Dano said that. Dano said they carry illegally when off duty.I totally recognize the fact that cops cannot carry concealed everywhere in the country when not on duty.ANd I also recognize that in some places it is mandatory for a cop to carry when he is not on duty. I do not know how you came to the conclusion that I was under the wron impression about these facts, but your conclusion is wrong..So I am not really sure what it is that you are refering to when you say I should get my facts straight.I understand that cops carrying off duty will have SOME impact on crime prevention. But I seriously doubt it has much more of an impact than us regulars carrying concealed. And I would go as far to say that if ALL people were allowed to carry concealed, it would certainly have more of an impact than if cops only were allowed to carry concealed.If you have some statistic to prove that I am incorrect, please provide it.Bottom line, I think cops who are off duty should be able to carry concealed. I also thing the general population should be allowed to carry concealed. I do not think that, when their are restrictions on the regular population, that cops should get preferential treatment, and be allowed to carry unless on duty.And as far as the show, I dont think I am going to be able to make it. It is possible, but I have family visiting, and I do not know if my brother and I are going to be allowed to sneak off on our own, the wife and kids will probably object. But believe me, we are going to try.
    Happiness is a warm gun[This message has been edited by salzo (edited 12-04-2001).]
  • njretcopnjretcop Member Posts: 7,975
    edited November -1
    salzo, If you can make it, I'm buying the coffee. Gee, imagine that, a cop actually buying, lol.-Charlie
    It's the stuff dreams are made of AngelMember: NRA, RKBA, NJSPBA, NJ area rep for the 2AMPD and the AARP. njretcop@copmail.com
  • nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,078 ******
    edited November -1
    A lot of states have stupid laws that restrict or prohibit out-of-state officers from carrying. I have never let that bother me much.One such state is Missouri. I found out, after the fact, that out-of-state officers, not on official business, cannot carry there.Well, on vacation in St. Louis, I encountered a metal detector and a security guard at the entrance to the Gateway Arch. I showed my credentials and told the guard that I would set off the detector big time. The guard said, "No problem," and handed me a clipboard with a sign in sheet. I signed in and wrote down my agency and badge number and went on the arch. I noted on the sheet above my name, the names of LOTS of out-of-state (mostly Texas) officers that had gone ahead of me.So the law and the practical application thereof are two different things, at least in St. Louis.As much as I abhor the notion of more Federal legislation, I think the National Right to Carry for LEOs is a good thing. If you hold a Peace Officer License in one state, that should be good enough for another state.I also think there should be nationwide reciprocity for CHL holders. If you have a carry license issued in one state, it should be good enough for another state. Even Massachussets.
    Certified SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Moderator of the General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Visit www.gunbroker.com, the premier gun auction site on the Net! Email davidnunn@texoma.net Jesus is Lord!
  • usmc2498215usmc2498215 Member Posts: 82 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    One of the big reasons LEO's like myself are CCW all the time, is the fact that we make our business putting people in jail prison. Some of these people are "very" bad people who carry a grudge, and tend to like to look for you and/or your family. Unlike those folks who are not LEO's, this is a viable threat that follows us throughout our careers.
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