A personal POLL, if you please...

Bubba Joel

As some know, my daughter is a pilot. She is applying at several airlines...My question is how many of you would like to be able to carry a firearm, with a CHL of course, on the planes?My answer would be, I would like to see it...I think that I would trust my kid flying with someone who is armed, instead of waiting for the government to come up with a solution. IMHO

Lowrider

I'm in. I hardly ever fly, maybe never again now, but if it were legal I'd be packing.Don't leave home without it.

varmit hunter

We have passed the same background check as a state trooper.We are aroud hundreds,maybe thousands of people a day.I would feal good with a plane load of ccw's.To my knowledge,I have not heard of any Rambos or wont to be heros that hold permits.Just good folks with common sence.

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A unarmed man is a subject.A armed man is a citizen.

concealedG36

My honest opinion is that it would never work. First, what happens when you get some of those drunk people on-board, they surely shouldn't be in possession of concealed firearms. Also, what happens if you get somebody who feels like they need to use their weapon but, in fact, don't. At that point, in the regular world, they'd be guilty of unlawful discharge of a firearm. At 30,000 feet they'd be guilty of attempted (or successful) homicide. If we could somehow develop a way to get frangible ammo in the air that might work. I still think the pilot should be able to have an emergency weapon but that's it (except an air-marshall). The risk of another terrorist hijacking is lower than that of armed passengers discharging their weapons without just cause or recklessly. I mean, I know that I would be responsible, but I'm not willing to bet that everyone would be.

njretcop

I know......I know, I'm gonna catch it for this post, but here we go. There is already a bill before the US Congress allowing all active duty and retired police officers to carry firearms aboard aircraft. The fastest thing the government can do to aid the airline industry and to protect the traveling public is to pass this bill NOW. I am in no way insinuating that armed civilians could not, nor would not be a deterent to a hijacker, but this bill just needs some ink to get this protection immediately. Please guys be gentle with your responses....

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Guns don't kill people, it's the bullets.. stupidI am the NRA, the KABA, the 2ampd..njretcop@copmail.com

BlueTic

Just my Opinion - Concealed - what makes you different than other ccw holders. I've not heard of a case of a ccw getting drunk in public and using their weapon indiscriminately. I agree that I trust myself and am not sure of others, but are not our rights for one and all?I agree whole hardedly with NJRETCOP - They should have never disallowed any law inforcement from carry on a plane..

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IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY RIGHTS - GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY[This message has been edited by BlueTic (edited 09-18-2001).]

concealedG36

NJRETCOP, that is the best idea (and most feasible) that I've heard yet. I'm in support of that...BlueTic, yes, I understand your point. But, too many people (including myself to some degree) are running on high emotion. I think that just maybe a LEO has more training and might be a better bet. I havne't heard of any licensed CCW holders doing anything irresponsible. But, again, I am not quite ready to bet my life on it. I would guess that on any given flight you'd likely have at least one cop. Again, this is a tricky question. I mean, how stupid would a terrorist be to try this again? I think it would be unlikely that they use this same tactic when there are probably hundreds of equally effective ways that we're not on high-alert to prevent. [This message has been edited by concealedG36 (edited 09-18-2001).]

mlincoln

Seems there'd need to be lots of training involved, with a very careful understanding of what would happen if the hull was pierced, etc. Sounds to me like a job best left to the pros. I'd glady pay an extra $20 a trip for better security, which would pay for an armed sky marshal on the plane. Yeah, I can get a CCW, but in no way does that mean I'm as well trained as a cop or sky marshal.

badboybob

Many of you assume a cop or marshall would be better trained to use a gun. I have observed many LEO's at my local pistol range, and I can tell you that their marksmanship varies from just tollerable to pee poor. Some of you have mentioned a bullet hole in the fuselage. Well that's no danger whatsoever. A tiny hole cannot cause explosive decompression. A bullet in a window may be another matter.I would far rather trust myself and other CCW people in a hijack situation than other alternatives.

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So many guns to buy. So little money.

mudge

Welllllllll....I dunno'How about....Let CCW holders on the airplane with a weapon. The cabin crew gets a list of passengers and their seat numbers. The list can tell the flight attendants a lot about the passengers. Special meals, high mileage travellers, health issues. It also tells them if a particular passenger is armed. Like for prisoner escort, FBI agent,etc. (No, the list doesn't say "armed person", there's just a code on it that they recognize.)With this list it would be easy enough to tell who gets booze and who doesn't. Someone with a firearm asks for booze, they refuse and report that person to police at the next stop. That person loses their CCW.Yeah...yeah...it's got some holes in it but....What the hell. Us CCW holders aren't a bunch of crazies with guns now. We wouldn't go "round the bend" just because we get on an airplane. Or cross a state line for that matter. Mudge

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Anyone who CAN carry, SHOULD carry!Let me update that.Anyone who CAN carry, BETTER carry.[This message has been edited by mudge (edited 09-18-2001).]

slideact.22

Right on, Mudge. I believe that in a great many of the shootings that the anti-gunners cite, alcohol is at least as much a factor as the presence of a firearm. I'd like to see NRA support CWI legislation (analogous to DWI, that could cost one his license).

Bubba Joel

Concealed, I guess there are some with CHL's that carries when they drink..As for me, when I am going somewhere and will probably have a drink, I leave my weapon at home....Some may not..I think I like the idea of the stewardesses knowing.....Also as for as LEO's being the only ones packing.....I've seen a few of them drinking with a side/arm on.....they may have more range time than most.....but I go to the range at least 3 times per week....I know some don't....Thanks for the responses, these are some good ideas..

Ross C. McDonell

No - as much as it pains me to say. I don't think just any of us should be able to carry on planes. They are a secure space that does not do well if bullets start flying. Go to the range, are you willing to stake your safety or that of your family on some people shooting there. Now should guns be on planes? YES. The sky marshal service should come back full speed, each cock pit crew person should be fully trained and required to carry. The cock pit should be hardened and access should be strictly controled. Your daughter is responsible for her passengers and crew give her a way to defend them.

metz

Two things:1) If ANYONE packs on a plane it needs certain ammo. ie; "plane safe ammo" Blowing .44mag holes in a fuselage kills everyone on board within 60 seconds of the bad guys guts hitting the deck. Remember Payne Stewart the golfer?? We have to have proper tools for the job.2) The reason I don't fly is a lack of rights and control. Inmates going out to work on the highway have the exact same situation as you do when enter a plane. The only diff is the point from which he travels to and from (they get door to door service). Until I have the same rights as I do on the ground and no one can just drop or * outta the sky or get drunk and crash my ride without me evan having as much of an opp to see it coming, no way do I fly. They say it's more dangerous to drive, I guessi like life on the edge, as long as I can see the edge.Andy

edharold

I'm sorry guys! I would like to be able to carry, but I don't want just anyone carrying in a confined, pressurized, and probably highly emotional situation. Where I live if you aren't a convicted felon or emotionally unstable (?), you can get a CWP. This is a situation for professionals. I don't want Rambo protecting my wife and kids.

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"They that would give up liberty to obtain safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"Benj. Franklin, 1759

DaRoosta

Tough subject here. There is definitely a captive audience inside an airplane. Whenever firearms are brought on board, there is a possibility for it to get in the wrong hands. Would I like to see sky marshalls on our airplanes to protect us? Yes and no. There is so much gray matter here and I should probably step aside and not voice my opinion, but that's not what message boards are about.It seems to me like the root of this question is about finding a solution for being safe while travelling in an airplane and how it may relate to carrying concealed weapons. We have to think of what's happening at the ground level...that is, what's happening inside the airport before the flight is even boarded? There are already increased security measures. Properly checking identification, passports, baggage, etc. is fairly standard, but now they're being much more cautious. That's fine with me. I'm all for increased safety. It's going to really slow down everything if they have to start checking the concealed weapon permits/licenses, too. Honestly, I would feel a little more at ease knowing nobody on the entire aircraft was carrying a firearm...period. This would give the terrorists one more way to overtake a plane. Like I said, it's a captive audience at 30,000 feet. You can't go anywhere. Even if the sky marshall is there for your protection, they have a weapon. Now the terrorists just have to overtake the sky marshall in order to take over the entire plane. Will this happen? I sure hope not, but sky marshalls cost alot of money, which equates into customer costs. I think the best solution is to not get into it at all, check baggage thoroughly, check i.d., leave the weapons at home.We're all on the same side; ultimately we all want to be safe. I could go on about this forever, but I hate reading long posts, so I'll cut it off here.

Lowrider

Hard to say on this. I would carry on a plane if it were legal.I really have heartburn about this LEO and retired LEO thing. Active duty cops? Sure. Hell yes. Retired cops? What makes them any more privileged than me? There's no way that someone who has retired from a profession should still hold the authority of that position. So some old 80 year old geezer can carry legal just because he retired from the force 30 years ago? B.S.

alledan

I think that air marshalls should be the armed personel on a plane. You start shooting holes in an airliner at high altitude and it will get you sucked out that small hole not to mention a loss of air pressure!

njretcop

Lowrider: To put your mind at ease, this old geezer, in order to carry a firearm as a retired LEO is required by law to qualify twice a year just like the active duty LEO's shooting the same course. I personally did not write the legislation that would authorize retired LEO's to carry on board, but under the circumstances described above, I agree with it. Pepto Bismol might help with the heartburn

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Guns don't kill people, it's the bullets, stupidI am the NRA, the KABA, the 2ampd..njretcop@copmail.com

stanman

THAT'LL DO PIG!!I couldn't agree more! It's just like driving....... I trust myself, it's all the other idiots that create the problems!Furthermore, let's not allow our new-found national love affair with law enforcement to muck up our clear thinking. MANY are idiots with itchy trigger fingers, just like the general population!Even federal marshalls and FBI guys should be rigorously screened and trained before carrying a firearm on a plane with MY wife and daughters. Don't forget, these are the same agencies that lose their own weapons and laptop computers and sell classified info to the Russians.Many of you have your FFL, what would the penalty be if YOU lost....oh lets say.... 200 firearms?

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My wife?.........Sure!My dog?..........Maybe!MY GUNS??........NEVER!!!

The Gun Doctor

The sky marshalls sound like the best idea.What if a few of these terriosts get their hands on a CCW permit?From what I understand we have quite a few sleepers over here in ths U.S.

stanman

Saxon,I hope I'm not the first to make sport of your screenname........ It just rolled off my fingers, what can I say?PLEASE,,, don't you spank me too!!!

njretcop

Stanman: Please accept my most sincere apology. I deleted my post. In response to your remarks, no, I do not agree with any of them and I will continue ranting on this board as long as it pleases me to do so.

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Guns don't kill people, it's the bullets, stupidI am the NRA, the KABA, the 2ampd..njretcop@copmail.com

v35

Sky Marshalls could be specially selected and trained military personnel. The assignment could be TDY for MPs,SPs,APs and elite units. Costs should be much less than for Sky Marshalls.If inner windows were 1/4 Lexan and ammo, Glaser Safety slugs risks to the aircrafts'structural integrity would be minimized.

stanman

NJRETCOP,Aw....Schucks, you don't owe me any apology!I've had much pleasure reading your past rantings,,,,just kind of stung when it was aimed at me! You've responded as a man with class would.[This message has been edited by stanman (edited 09-18-2001).]

Lowrider

njretcop: My rant was in no way directed at you. In Washington State any law-abiding citizen who passes the background check can obtain a concealed-carry permit, but I know other states make it very hard to get one or outlaw it all together. However, some of those same states make an exemption for retired LEO's.I think this stinks. Active duty cops are on duty even when they're off duty. It would be ridiculous for a non-CCW state to not allow cops to carry concealed when they're out of uniform. But to continue that exemption after a cop retires makes these retired cops some kind of privileged class. A case of laws not being applied to all citizens equally. I totally disagree with that premise.

Lightning

The solution would be to have some sort of fast acting sleeping gas on board that the pilot could release from his sealed cabin. If any trouble started the pilot could simply release the gas, continue to the destination, and let the police sort them out when he landed.

218Beekeep

I guess someone will invent a way to keep bad folks out da cockpit,become a billionaire, and we`ll be sittin` here with our thumb up our *,thinkin` wow ,a door just like on my gun safe,why didn`t I think of that??As far as drunks on a plane ,don`t serve booze!If ya can`t go a couple hours without a drink,then you don`t belong in a plane , ya belong in a rehab!!

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Will the last reb to leave flarda,please bring the flag?

Evil ATF

I'll pack if they legalize. Hell, I bring my heat to church!Don't leave home without it. You can't bring down the wrath of the Almighty when your flaming sword is in the glove box!

218Beekeep

How in the world do ya conceal Gretchen?

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Will the last reb to leave flarda,please bring the flag?

.280 freak

Not that I'm advocating shooting holes in airplanes, but ........, does anybody remember the commercial airliner (West coast, Hawaii, perhaps, don't remember exactly where this occurred) that lost a very large part of the plane a few years ago? They managed to land the plane safely with a huge gaping hole from floor to ceiling and extending for quite a few rows fore and aft. If that event wasn't catastrophic for the airplane, surely a hole or two in the plane's skin wouldn't be as horrendous as we have thought. Has Hollywood perhaps influenced us on this subject?Just a little food for thought.

mudge

That Hawaii flight wasn't at 30,000 feet. either. BUT....a .44 mag. hole in a fuselage is NOT going to suck anybody out! I like the idea of TDY military though. The idea of a fast acting anesthetic gas MIGHT be OK until someone with an allergic health condition died from it. Then it would be LAWSUIT CITY against the airline, the FAA, and anybody else the "SHARKS" could find with deep pockets.MudgeMudge

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Anyone who CAN carry, SHOULD carry!Let me update that.Anyone who CAN carry, BETTER carry.

Iconoclast

If these clowns can obtain fake passports and other documents, how hard would it be for them to produce CCWs? In my own state, there is no proficiency test required. In VT, there is no license required, period - them that want to, carry, regardless of residency. Not much crime in VT, BTW . . . .As to active LEOs - again, fake documents can be had for enough $. Bolt the cabin door and have a sky marshal. Perhaps put something in the cockpit . . . but let's not forget that some of these vermin had been living here 4 years and most had pilot licenses of some sort. One bad guy up front w/ access to a firearm is just as bad as any number of them in the passenger compartment with box cutters, etc.I may be wrong (there's a first time for anything [grin]), but I would be greatly surprised to see them try doing this again. Much more likely the next attack will involve water / power supplies or another part of the infrastructure. These vermin are crazy, but they are not dumb. They will find a hole in security & attack there - not where we are strongest.

ghotie_thumper

I think that at least one or 2 of the flight attendants should be required to carry. Givem frangible bullets that won't penetrate the hull of the plane. I think some pepper spray and an impact weapon or 2 as well should be able to stop most threats as long as security at the gates was decent. Also I heard that the planes don't have locking doors to the cockpits? Is this possible? I guess that would be the first order of business. I think a firing port in the door that only opens from the pilots side would be good as well. I don't know if allowing LEO's to carry would make a difference, there won't be an LEO on all flights. As far as CCW's I see no reason a legal armed citizen with proper ammunition shouldn't be allowed to carry. Maybe go one step further and have the CCW holder qualify through a course put on by the airline they choose to travel with. Law enforcement had non lethal weapons as well that airlines could use. 40mm shotguns with the hard rubber pellets, beanbag rounds, pepperspray cannons. I don't know about you but if my plane were being hijacked I'd take a heavy dose of pepper spray or a stray rubber pellet over crashing into the ground or a building at over 500 mph. Strange times we live in.

dheffley

I would be for it as long as the CHL training included the use of firearms in a pressurized aircraft cabin. It is pretty much a myth that the cabin will explode if pierced by a bullet. Jet fighters with pressurized cabins have been shot by multiple .50 cal's and still landed.

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Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!

idsman75

My cousin has a CCW and he's a straight up nut-job in a state where it's damn near impossible to get one. Don't ask me how he did it.

Mom Mom

I think the Sky Marshalls is an excellent idea. I also can't figure out why on earth nobody has ever thought to put the pilots behind a SECURELY LOCKED door. That would raise the possibility of having attendants and passengers held as hostages, but it would still come down to a few lives vs. a few thousand in a building.As to letting the passengers with CCW pack, personally I'd like too, BUT, I wouldn't like to risk the resulting lawsuit for wrongful loss or emotional trauma or whatever from the surviving hijackers and their families. Anybody remember Bernard Goetz (? i think that was his name). He shot a mugger in the NYC subway, paralized him, and was sued by the would be mugger. Also, although I'm sure everyone on this board is at least semi intelligent and prudent, I know several people who could pass the background check required for the CCW, and I wouldn't want to be within a 100 yards of them with a sling shot.

bradf111

Some old timers? here might remember a "nut case" who was a UPS driver who got a permit. Sound familiar?Well how about putting wings on an armored truck. Or use same sort of technology?