Who killed Kennedy?

niklasal

I saw a show on TLC about "Infamous Guns"They say Kennedy was shot 1 time with a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Carcano Italian military rifle. It got me thinking- I've seen the assasination tape, and all the documentaries. He was over a hundred yards away, firing at a moving target with a 6.5mm right in the head. No disrespect to anyone, but that must have been one helluva shot.What do yall think of this?

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NIKLASAL@hotmail.com

timberbeast

I ain't going there, nik, just cause a big fracas, and never get anywhere we haven't been before. Read the books, read the Warren Report, make up your own mind and remember that you won't change anyone else's, is the way I feel about it. And no offense to you, either.

kimberkid

Helluva shot with a Carcano, and the scope was loose too ... yep, helluva shot ... unless someone else did it ... wonder if the government will ever come clean on that one.No doubt in my mind ... or most other peoples that have done any research ... maybe thats where Clinton got the idea, cover-up and deny deny deny.

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Here's a thought: Let's make criminals responsible for their crimes ... ...Not blame society and the tools they use!kimberkid@gunbroker.zzn.com

jeenyes

If someone on this board did know, they might think twice about telling. They might get a visit, so to speak.

Bullzeye

Oswald had a 6.5mm Mannlicher-Caranco.Charles Whitman did most of his shooting with an 8mm Mauser.Where did these gentlemen learn to shoot like that?THE MARINE CORPS

oneshy

Was it just a coincidence that Kennedy's head of security was sent to the Aluetians and Alaska for an inspection tour of Air Force bases? Or that a deaf and dumb eyewitness to a man breaking down a rifle and placing it in a railroad switch box behind the grassy knoll was ignored by authorities?

whiteclouder

It was a 6.5? Well that explains it then.And all this time I doubted.Clouder..

Iconoclast

It is clear from all the public evidence that, at best, Oswald was part of a team. There was a relatively quiet Congressional investigation later (1974?) that concluded the Warren Report wasn't worth the paper on which it was printed. Any - and every - one who knew the minimal possible amount about ballistics and wounds, etc., knew JFK was shot at least once from the front as soon as they saw the Zapruder film. Anyone who'd ever seen a fired bullet knew things were BS as soon as they saw the alleged lethal projectile in it's pristine condition. There have been many books - and the History Channel did a special - which point out the many discrepancies. Some of these are hysterical, but the degree of cover-up makes it clear that the murder was accomplished with at least the acquiesence of powerful forces within the government. Like many others, I believe this included elements of the CIA at the very least.

simonbs

I hope Judge Dread sees and posts a reply to this. I would seriously like to read his onion on this topic.

He Dog

I have never been a fan of conspiracy theories in general and regarding the Kennedy assasination in particular. One guy can sometimes keep a secret, several guys simply cannot. Even so I have always been troubled by the quality of shooting in Dallas that day. I finally went to look a the plaza last year. It is actually smaller than I had thought from the phots and television. The distances are really not great. I looked at the book depository window, the angles, the distances, the grassy knoll, the railroad overpass, took it all in. I watched the cottage industry that has been spawned with people wanting to tell you the story and give you maps for cash. I listened to part of the lecture by the fellow proving a conspiricy. I came away with an almost overwhelming sadness and only one certain conclusion: If Oswald was the lone shooter, he was one hell of a lot better shot than I am.

gruntled

Did you know that Mrs. Lincoln was in on the Lincoln Assasination? She arranged for Lincoln to go to Ford's theater, left the door to the booth unlocked & sent the guard off on an errand. She was well known to be a southern sypathizer and this "prooves" the whole thing.In other words if you want to believe hard enough you can come up with any crock of s .... .. _ you want to believe.

jhj370

I watched a documentary about the handling of Kennedy's body after the shooting. There were 3 caskets that showed up in Annapolis for the autopsy. The one he arrived in was not the same casket he left Texas in. Neither was the casket that Jackie stayed with. In addition, there had been a craineotomy (sp?) performed by the time the body arrived in Annapolis. Somebody was trying very hard to cover something up.

ndbilly

hedog and saxonpig - Won't offer my opinions since others have expressed the same here and on other venues. I do wish to say to everyone who has an interest in this topic that you should visit the assassination site if you ever have the chance. It did not change my conclusions but it certainly does alter the perspective of having seen the site only through television newsreels for many years.

jeenyes

I will say this, having lived a few miles from the court stenographer (and he has the papers to prove it)who was at the hearings, a few of you are very close to what he said.

offeror

It is true that the later Congressional investigation concluded there was most likely a conspiracy, but did not conclude who was involved in it. There was so much evidence that at least 3 shots were fired that the FBI recreations were hard pressed to prove the Carcano was capable of it. What they found first was that the scope was unusable for the tests without first putting shims in it to get it decently on target. Then they were unable to see the limo through the tree and the large sign for portions of the trip down that stretch of road, and they were unable to work the Mannlicher-Carcano bolt action quickly enough to match the necessary time limits. Of course, the cops first identified the rifle they took from the Depository as a Mauser, but there is some doubt that whoever identified it knew enough about rifles to tell the difference between the two.All in all, it was a mess. Since then it has supposedly been "proven" that the deadly shot came from the grassy knoll, another conclusion that the fatal shot came from a guy in a storm drain, and a third theory that because of the way a head (or melon) explodes away from a bullet's impact, the fatal shot could actually have come from the rear even though the exploding of the head sent it spasming backward. The minutiae don't really matter once you've come to the conclusion that there was more than one shooter. I was at high school when it all happened, and only read the most popular books about the assassination years later when Mort Sahl started talking about the Zapruder film on his show in the 70s. Then I picked up the books by Mark Lane and Sylvia Meagher. They don't shed much light on who actually did it, but they do a pretty good job of proving the case of how unlikely it was that Oswald was a lone nut assassin. Mort Sahl nearly ruined his credibility by taking this on, though. His career as a comic was spotty after that show. Of course, for a long time it was not generally known that we had made deals with the mob to kill Castro and that there were several attempts (though the earliest conspiracy theory books do talk about meetings with Cubans and street mugs). Of course the idea that foreigners, or even the mob, would make an attempt on the President of the United States just seemed impossible to take seriously, which is what made conspiracy such a tough sell. There was an immediate concern in government to avoid the notion of a coup d'etat, and the Warren Commission was not convened to ask "who did it?", but rather to determine "how did Oswald do it?" Sadly, then, they discounted witnesses who saw a different version of the events and put a great deal of stock in the testimony of witnesses who were a lot less reliable. In one case, a witness who identified Oswald as the shooter of Officer Tippett probably didn't even arrive on the scene until after the shooting was over. While a woman who did witness the shooting, but described someone else, was never called to testify. Maybe the oddest thing is that Oliver Stone and Kevin Costner chose to make such an outlandish movie in JFK. Didn't help the cause much. A long, long list of witnesses died within the next few years in a variety of odd ways, including in one case a karate chop. Purely circumstantial, of course, but if somebody did execute as many as 80 or so witnesses to protect a cover story, they made Bill Clinton look like an amateur (which I guess he was, come to think of it).All this is by way of saying that while history seems to have decided that the JFK murder involved a conspiracy of persons, it has presented no concensus about who or why. There are several theories, but none of them has evidence, or even one of the participants who is willing to talk about it, in order to back it up. There are some mysteries that we wish to have solved and believe we deserve to have answers where we may never get satisfaction. Among those I would put JFK, Martin Luther King, Jr., possibly RFK, James Hoffa, and recently Chandra Levy. Just the fact that Miss Levy disappeared so thoroughly makes me doubt it was an amateur job. By the way, I have severely abbreviated the level of detail regarding the JFK investigations on purpose so as not to test your patience too much. No doubt I'm not the only one on the board who could go on about this ad infinitum, but we all have a tendency to feel it's a rat maze without an answer, so why get into it all over again. All I can say is that if there are any remaining living conspirators, it takes a very warped sense of loyalty to want to keep the facts surrounding a U.S. presidential assassination under wraps forever.

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"The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."[This message has been edited by offeror (edited 02-27-2002).]

Rembrandt

Some years ago a group of shooters at Second Chance tried their hand with a Carcano and pumpkins....turns out it can be done. Rather than shoulder the rifle on you right side....place the rifle on the left shoulder and sight with the left eye, grip the rifle with the left hand....then operate the bolt with the right hand....shooters were surprised to find they could score three times on a pumpkin in the time alotted.....Oliver Stone never showed that in his movie....

Miss. Creant

Has anyone ever proved he is really dead?? Judge Dread where are you????

v35

At the time of the announcement, I was in my office and blurted out " It's the Cubans.If I were one of the betrayed Cubans I could have done it myself. Needless to say, In that den of NY Liberals, my comment went over like a f@*t in church".History has sanitized Kennedys'unforgivable betrayal of the Cuban Patriotic movement in the Bay of Pigs fiasco.

offeror

Rembrandt --Don't forget they had to shim the scope before they could even sight the thing. This was not a well-kept rifle they found leaning by the window after the event.I'm not sure history is sanitizing the Bay of Pigs debacle any more. I think it's clear that Kennedy made the decision to deny air support and both the Cubans and the CIA were livid about it and some never forgave him. Then too, it seems Kennedy may have shared a girlfriend with Sam Giancana. Then we have the problem that the mob may have felt betrayed by Kennedy for a couple of different reasons, not the least of which was that they had a financial interest in a free Cuba too. So you have at least three dangerous groups with motive without even getting into the speculation about American ultraconservatives who felt Kennedy was giving away the store in one way or another. The trouble was that Castro at the time was identified so closely with the Soviets, who backed him and provided the credibility for his status, that if there was a hint of Cubans in it, people would have been yelling Soviet plot immediately. In that case, with such a provocation, the call for retaliation against the Soviets might have been overwhelming. With the Cuban missile crisis fresh in mind, WWIII might have been on the minds of American government at that point. So while the Warren Commission's motive may have been to stabilize America as quickly as possible, the assassins' motive may simply have been that they were p.o.'ed at Kennedy for some perceived dishonorable betrayal or other. Both groups covering up, but for different reasons. See how deep a hole we can dig on this? Then of course you can speculate as to whether some powerful dark figure decreed that no Kennedy would ever again attain the White House. The trouble is, for a long time this sort of speculation was viewed by many as being on a par with believing in flying saucers, chariots of the gods, the kingdom of Mu, and Atlantis. So there ya go. A regular smorgasbord of belief systems. It wasn't until the second Congressional investigation that the conspiracy theory of Kennedy's assassination finally obtained some degree of legitimacy in mainstream society. And if you were to ask former President Ford (a member of the Warren Commission) he'd still tell you Oswald did it.

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"The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."

Mafioso

OK, yous guys, I take the 5th.

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Let them sleep with the fishes.

EDHEAD

i believe it was oswald by himself with one gun. no big show biz. helluva shot(twice)

v35

I seem to recall that at one time Marina suggested Oswald was an American hero who was involved in a noble conspiracy that the public may not get to know and appreciate.

TRIGGERSGHOST

After looking at the photos of the dead President,I say shot twice for sure,maybe three times.DEAD HORSE WALKING

offeror

Yeah, that was just one of the zillion problems. One of the physicians who examined the Pres said there was a shot to the back between the shoulder blades that he probed with his little finger and found the end of the wound. There was obviously a wound in the neck near the adam's apple but since it is claimed a tracheotomy was performed there may or may not have been a bullet wound obliterated there. Then you have the obvious wound to the head. The wound in the back is corroborated by a corresponding hole in the President's jacket. So we know the President was hit at least twice. In the Zapruder film, he is hit the first time while he is behind the green highway sign and comes into view holding the front of his neck with both hands. This shot is the so-called magic bullet, because the Warren Commission concluded that this bullet entered the back of the President's neck (supposedly his coat was bunched up so high that the bullet hole in the back was up around his collar area), exited through the front of his neck, went through John Connolly's (sp?) arm or shoulder and then broke Connolly's wrist, without being deformed in any way or losing any significant weight along its path. This bullet, by the way, supposedly laid loose on one of the gurneys and was found, rolling around loose, at the hospital.The second shot blows a piece of Kennedy's skull away. I've even heard the theory that the so called second shot to the head is actually two nearly simultaneous shots from two different sniper locations. Who the h*** knows.... Suppposedly one fired round missed and there was a piece of broken curbing in evidence to prove it. The president's brain was preserved but later disappeared, by the way, preventing any further definitive examination to determine front or rear entry of the bullet. There I go again...

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"The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."

interstatepawnllc

The bottom line is this. Alot of s--- goes on in this country that we will never know about or really want to know about. Kennedy got whacked for a reason, what reason depends on what you choose to believe. I am not saying he deserved it mind you, I am only saying there was a reason.There will always be alot of f

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up sh-- that is governed or condoned by our govt and the unknown powers that be but until I find or am aware of a better country to call home I am staying right here, locked and loaded of course.[This message has been edited by interstatepawnllc (edited 02-28-2002).]

Lowrider

I vote for the CIA.

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Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.

guns-n-painthorses

If only he was wearing his tin foil hat that day..................

Gordian Blade

OK, I can't stand it, I have to put my oar in. #1, no way Oswald was working alone. #2, the laws of physics were not suspended that day, i.e. no such thing as a magic bullet. #3, in my opinion, the key to the whole conspiracy is Jack Ruby. It's way too convenient that he had terminal cancer. If we can ever find out for sure who he was working for and what his motive was, we'll be on the right track. For now, I'm going with the KGB theory.PS - Someone who worked in the same division of a big company that I worked for back in the day was into this big time. He finally boxed everything up and stopped looking into it because (he said) he was pushing into sensitive areas and certain people were pushing back. Truth or paranoia, who knows?

Bullzeye

I think Oswald might have very well done what they say he did.He was a former Marine Infantryman and had an excellent training in rapid fire engagement on a moving target.The fact that it took 2 shots to brain Kennedy was testament to the condition of the rifle and the moving target.The fact that it only took two shots and he hit anywhere near where he was aiming was testament to the fact that he was an excellent (and probably very lucky) shot.Distance wasnt that much of a factor. It wasnt that far, less than 75m if I recall, and he had a clear shot.

gruntled

Has everybody forgotten one tiny little detail? Like who the attorney general of the United States was. Or was he in on the cover up too?

niklasal

On a more recent note, it's interesting to find out what happened to JFK Jr. He was rising in popularity and influence, plus he had all the appeal of his father. That plane ride means he'll never be president....

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NIKLASAL@hotmail.com

Iconoclast

Gordian, if one considers the number of folks whose testimony might have contradicted the 'official line' who died from accidents and previously-undiagnosed health problems in a short span of time after the murder, I would not be surprised at either interpretation of your associate's behavior. Bullz - find me a left-handed shooter who can fire three rounds accurately from a POS Carcano carbine with a loose scope at a moving target at that range then run down several flights of stairs in a matter of seconds w/o breathing heavily and I will consider listening to that line of reasoning. No one has ever been able to recreate the feats of magic the Warren Commission attributed to Oswald, not even the best USMC & FBI snipers. This does not even begin to address how JFK's skull goes flying back toward Oswald's alleged position as he is hit, how a projectile can shatter bones, strike metal and suffer no distortion, etc., etc., etc. ad nauseum. If you truly believe what you wrote and were not simply stirring, remember Easter is coming and you still have time to put the basket out for the bunny.nicklasl, JFK2 was the victim of his own arrogance. I know several professional pilots who stated categorically they not only would not attempt to fly under that particular set of circumstances (cast, aircraft & weather), but they were virtually certain of exactly how the accident occurred because of those circumstances. My only regret is that he didn't have his uncle and several other members of his immediate family with him rather than the other passengers. Talk about the improvement to the gene pool that would have made!

Bullzeye

Hey! Are you trying to tell me.....there ISNT an Easter Bunny?Shut up, man! Just shut up!

jdb123

i drive by the cemetary that lee harvey oswald is buried {rose hill cemetary in ft worth texas, he was buried under an alias name}and i get chills just thinking that someone who changed history forever is buried so close to my home. at least he is a part of that history anyway, and his name is so ominous.[This message has been edited by jdb123 (edited 03-01-2002).]

He Dog

Just imagine how useful those U-turn bullets would be in elk and deer hunting!!!

Bullzeye

For the record, we've had 4 presidents assassinated, and I think Kennedy is near the bottom of the list in terms of decency.Of course, Abe Lincoln getting brained with a Derringer doesnt make women cry like pretty, rich, well-dressed John Kennedy.But I'm sure on this board there are a few people who think that Abe Lincoln is a real dirtball, and Jefferson Davis really would have done a swell job.

TrinityScrimshaw

This has always been onbe of my favorite topics. I got to see JFK in Houston Texas the day before he was killed. I was in second grade then, and It has ben something that has stuck with me. As a child I just belived what the Warren report stated. As an adult, and as someone with 27 years in Law Enforcement, I have always felt Oswald didn't act alone. It was a conspiracy, and that is a fact. Let's look at some other facts.Fact: It happened in broad daylight.Fact: More then one shot was fired, maybe as many as four.Fact: Oswald worked in the Texas School Book Depository.Fact: Wintnesses claim they saw shots being fired from a rifle, that was comong from the 6th floor of the TSBD. Fact: JFK was shot twice, maybe three times.Fact: The shots were fatal (Grusome photos exist) and the brain matter lost does not reflect a viable life afterwards. The neck & back shot was most likely fatal also!Fact: It was done with a rifle, and an old beat up rifle was found on the sixth floor of the TSBD. Which is alledged to have Oswalds palm print on the stock???Fact: Oswald left the TSBD when the search was being conducted. Why?Fact: Oswald turns up at an indoor movie theater.Fact: Oswald resisted aresst when confronted by police, and was found to be in possession of the same handgun which killed Officer Tippett.Fact: Oswald is dead, killed by Jack Ruby who is also dead, along with Mr. Garrison, Gov Conelly, Jackie Kennedy, and many more who were involved in one way or another.Fact: We may never know who was responsible, at least not in our life time.Trinity+++

wundudnee

He Dog,I'm not to sure I want my bullets making U-turns.

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"If stupidity got us into this mess, then why can't it get us out?" Will Rogers

wyatt325

I've read a few books on this subject, and although we all have our own individual theories about what occurred on that fateful day in Dallas, Texas, what I've learned was this: To believe that Oswald acted alone, is possible! But, to believe that this act could not have been a conspiracy is FOOLISH!!!

chappsyny

Does anyone know what model of Mannlicher-Carcano rife Oswald supposedly used? Century arms has several different models of them advertised on their website. It would make a real conversation piece.

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New Hampshire, USA - "Live Free or Die!!!"

Lowrider

The Australians have been using those boomarang bullets for years.

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Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.