In order to participate in the GunBroker Member forums, you must be logged in with your GunBroker.com account. Click the sign-in button at the top right of the forums page to get connected.

BATF visit

soopsoop Member Posts: 4,633
edited February 2002 in General Discussion
I got a letter from the BATF today concerning a Romainian sks that I bought some time ago. Seems the company I purchased it from modified some of them and then sold them .Mine isn`t modified in any way,but they want to examine it anyway. The letter states"If we determine through our investigation that you are in possession of an illegal assault weapon,you are subject to criminal prosecution."Ouch! Boy am I glad I don`t have one that is modified.Still not looking forward to a visit though.

Comments

  • soopsoop Member Posts: 4,633
    edited November -1
    Kind of sounds like a witch hunt to me too.I don`t know how the guns were modified,but the place that did it got in trouble for it several months ago. They were missing from a few gun shows,but are now back as of the last one. I intend to ask them this weekend at the next gun show.
  • daddodaddo Member Posts: 3,408
    edited November -1
    Are these guy's wasting tax dollars or what? Do you have a criminal record? If not- why don't they go after the Talybany's and leave us alone. How did they get the info? I thought records were supposed to be destroyed after 24 hrs. Wow! they realy are protecting us (Americans) by checking on a rifle that could do massive destruction far worse than 9-11.!!A bunch of idiots!! I have more sense in my little finger than those lazy brainless idiots have in the matter that makes up their so called brains.! "An sks?" Should be lookin for bombs-air to air and such. Sorry- thats too risky!
  • niklasalniklasal Member Posts: 776 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Not that I recommend this, but what would happen if when the BATF called you told them you sold the rifle privately? Tell them you sold the rifle, checked to make sure the guy was at least 18, and that was it (assuming private sales are legal in your state, such as in AZ). What could they do then?
    NIKLASAL@hotmail.com
  • soopsoop Member Posts: 4,633
    edited November -1
    Can`t do it that way as I bought it and used my curio & relic licence.I suspect they will want to check my records book also.Don`t have a criminal record(at least not yet)[This message has been edited by soopershot (edited 02-20-2002).]
  • redcedarsredcedars Member Posts: 919 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sooper, call a lawyer. A federal criminal defense lawyer. Now. Don't do anything or say anything else to anyone about this situation until you do. I really mean it, buddy. If you don't have a way to get a referral to someone good, call the NRA for a referral to someone in your area.If you let these guys in your house, if you permit them to interrogate you without your lawyer, you may do irreparable harm to your defense even though you believe yourself to be innocent. Anything you say and anything they find can be used against you. The very fact that they are threatening you with possible prosecution despite the fact that you might be completely unaware of any violation is proof that you MUST protect yourself.A word to the wise.redcedars
  • AntiqueDrAntiqueDr Member Posts: 691 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Are Romanian SKS's C&R? The Russian manufactured guns are specifically on the list...
    We buy, sell and trade quality guns and scopes!Ask us about Shepherd Scopes!Visit our website at www.ApaxEnterprises.com
  • boeboeboeboe Member Posts: 3,331
    edited November -1
    Sounds like the company you bought it from put detatchable mags on some and sold them, which would be a clear violation. I would certainly get rid of any SKS detatchable mags you had laying around, even if they were not on the rifle. They could come up with the old thought that possession of the firearm and the items that could possibly be used to make it illegal are in itself the same as owning an illegal firearm.And I agree, the are threatening you right off the bat. I'd have an attorney there, just to keep them in line if nothing else.
  • soopsoop Member Posts: 4,633
    edited November -1
    I`m gonna talk to the dealer I bought it from before I contact a lawyer.The more I think about this mess,the less I like it.
  • robsgunsrobsguns Member Posts: 4,581 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Put it up for sale, legally sell it as a gun that you only know to be as legal as it was when you bought it, done deal. You havent been told you cant sell it right? They havent identified your particular gun have they? Screw 'em.
  • IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm with Nick, except that those Gestapo male genitalia would probably use that as an excuse to come knocking at 0300 w/ a warrant. Interesting that they have a record of your purchase several months afterwards . . . *sure* they don't illegally keep records . . . . Sorry nunn & others, I stopped buying from dealers the day the Brady Bill took effect. Anyone who trusts in the honesty of government bureaucrats has to believe in the Tooth Fairy.
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    This is weird. How would I know for sure a gun had been modified in some way, particularly a subtle, unspecified way? I have guns in my collection right now that I haven't taken to the range yet. I suppose those could be "modified" somehow and I wouldn't even be aware of it. Curiouser and curiouser...Say, how about you arrange to have the BATF examine the gun at your attorney's office?
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
  • Rafter-SRafter-S Member Posts: 2,173 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    What specifically are the modifications the BATF is looking for? What did the selling company do to make some of the guns illegal?
  • boeboeboeboe Member Posts: 3,331
    edited November -1
    As I said, the answer to what modification was probably done to some of the firearms was the attachment of a detatchable magazine. Perhaps the original seller didn't even do it, perhaps some of his buyers added the detatchable mag and simply claimed they bought it that way.The attachment of a detatchable magazine to an SKS has got to be one of the most common felonys in firearms history.
  • Rafter-SRafter-S Member Posts: 2,173 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have had several "interfaces" with BATF agents, including having to testify in a very high-profile trial. I have also been through several audits when I was a FFL dealer. I would be willing to say; if your SKS is not modified and not illegal, they will be out of your hair in less than 5 minutes. The agents I have dealt with were busy guys and gals, with lots of work to do...and didn't hassle me in any way. In fact, they went out of their way to be curtious. They would ask me specific questions and I would give them specific answers. My experience has been; there is no need for lawyers if you are following the rules.The important thing for you, as a dealer, is to be legal in all your transactions, and keep your paperwork in order. If you have a screw-up here and there, they will simply ask you to fix them. It ain't no big deal.
  • borderguyborderguy Member Posts: 387 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sooper, I had the same exact problem with a Maadi AK I bought a few years ago. I got the letter from the BATF stating that my AK had been built on a machine gun reciever. My dealer told me to keep all the accessories and the rifle was sent back to the distributer. A week later I had a new rifle and 2 of everything else. Try to have the BATF Agents meet you at the dealer's store.Good Luck!!
  • BUCK/91/92BUCK/91/92 Member Posts: 35 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would check with someone who might know if it's been modified and if it was I would use a steel chopsaw on it and give it to them in 3 or 4 pieces. Just tell them you decommissioned it . It certainly would beat getting arrested for a felony. By the way, it would make me sick to do that but it would make me feel good to see the look on their faces.
  • niklasalniklasal Member Posts: 776 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You'd get one hell of a look from them, but you'd end up doing them a favor. That's just one less firearm they have to deal with. I think the more guns they have to deal with, the less stringent overall they will be.It could just be wishful thinking though...
    NIKLASAL@hotmail.com
  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sometimes getting involved with our supposedly good American government can be like making a pact with the devil, or being tied to the other end of a tiger's leash. It may well be that some day the FFL holders of today will be considered heroes much like those who braved other risks to provide free Americans the fruits of their heritage. The business is scary enough (robberies, etc.) without the government making blanket threats in form letters.
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
  • soopsoop Member Posts: 4,633
    edited November -1
    I`ve just got off the phone with the shop that I purchased it from.Seems this has to do with some of the guns being sold with folding stocks.Mine has the regular sks stock so there should be no problem.I haven`t been able to make an appointment with the BATF yet as it seems we are playing phone tag. I hope to get this resolved soon and will let you all know how it all works out.
  • simonbssimonbs Member Posts: 994
    edited November -1
    I second Redcedars idea and also whoever said to arrange the meeting in YOUR Attorney's office. Good ideas.
  • Rafter-SRafter-S Member Posts: 2,173 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    These folks that recommend hiring an attorney are suggesting you go to a lot of trouble and spend a pile of money. Finding a lawyer who specializes in federal firearms laws and regulations is not easy. And when you do find him or her, the clock will start running at about $100 per hour (how thick is your wallet?). If your SKS hasn't been modified, and you have not broken any laws, don't worry about it. All the BATF wants to do is see the gun. Take it and show it to them. Contrary to popular thought, the agents don't just sit around trying to figure out ways to make law abiding gun dealers miserable.
  • lrarmsxlrarmsx Member Posts: 791 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This is another example why you might think twice about applying for a FFL or C&R FFL. All of this stuff about a warrant or a lawyer's office is BS. When you apply for the license, you are consenting to them coming in your home, or whatever address is on the license. If you aren't willing to submit to this type of invasion of privacy, don't apply for the license in the first place. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want them coming into my home unannounced or scheduled, but if you have an FFL with your home for the address, you've given them the right to inspect at their discretion. The do make that clear at the time of application, if you aren't willing to have them visit, don't apply. Just a word of advice, insure all your books are in order, they may want to see those as well as the gun. As for the destroying of the gun in advance, real good idea, if as it appears now, that the gun was in fact ok and now it is a pile of junk, your junk, that you destroyed, brilliant. "Real funny to see their faces", yeah as they tell you "Only the Gov't has the right to de-mill guns and oh by the way yours was ok. I hope you didn't have much money tied up in it, now that it is 4 paper weights. We just wanted to see it. If there was something wrong with it we would have had you make it right and let you keep it. Sorry you got some bad intell."
  • cpilericpileri Member Posts: 447 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Even though you have a C&R, I believe you can sell your applicable rifles in private sale, as long as you don't make a profit i.e. avoid the appearance that you are in the business of dealing.Am I wrong?C_
  • njretcopnjretcop Member Posts: 7,975
    edited November -1
    A little clarification on the C&R license. It does NOT give the BATF (or anyone else) any right to make un-expected visits to your home. By law, they may inspect your C&R log book once a year at YOUR convinence and at your choice of place, your home, office, business or at THEIR office.I know, they have been at my home, (six times at my invitation and once at Dunkin Donuts, they bought) before I got my C&R.-Charlie
    It's the stuff dreams are made of AngelNRA Certified Firearms InstructorMember: GOA, RKBA, NJSPBA, NJ area rep for the 2ndAMPD. njretcop@copmail.com
  • dhdh Member Posts: 127 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Yall are bringing up some issues I didn't know about.Someone please note what makes an SKS illegal,other than being full auto.I bought mine new about 8 years ago.
  • soopsoop Member Posts: 4,633
    edited November -1
    My BATF book says any semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of-(1) A folding or telescoping stock,(2)A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon,(3)A bayonet mount.(4)A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor,and(5)A grenade launcherIf you alter your rifle in this way it becomes an assault rifle.
  • redcedarsredcedars Member Posts: 919 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The price of a good attorney is probably more than suggested above; I think $150 - $250 per hour is common around here.Question: Which is more efficient, 1) Spend $300 now on peace of mind and have no further trouble, or, 2)try to deal with the BATF on your own, get charged, and spend $5,000 - $10,000 on a defense, while having the federal pen hanging over your head? If you violated the law unwittingly, you may still get nailed. Hell, even if you are 100% innocent, you may still get nailed!Most ATF agents are regular folks, especially at the lower echelons, but the agency still has a REALLY big problem with A FEW of its employees. Some have anti-gun personal agendas, or political agendas, like the local supervisor. It only takes one to give you a major problem. The best lawyer you can afford, as soon as you can sic him on them, is the best way to deal with the bad apples.redcedars
  • madminutemadminute Member Posts: 68 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    You guys are blowing up a tempest in a teapot and putting worries into this poor guys' head that are unfounded.I've been an FFL holder, and held federal and state explosives licenses. I've had many dealings with ATF, and each time found them to be polite, businesslike individuals. I also have a spotless criminal record, which gives them no reason to be aggressive in the first place. If your SKS is on a full wooden stock and has the fixed magazine as manufactured, these guys are going to hold it in their hands, flip it over a few times, hand it back to you and say "Thank You". They are way too busy to charge people who have committed no crimes just to take an embarrasing and expensive * whipping in court when your lawyer holds up Exibit A (the rifle) and reads the list of illegal features and points out to the judge that your weapon has none of these. C'mon guys, get real. I've never heard a more paranoid and militant bunch of crap from a discussion thread in my life. I'm not worried about the ATF as much as I'm worried about some of the borderline looneys writing in this forum...
  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    Tell it to the Branch Davidians.I dont trust em as far as I can throw them.They have a long history second only to the FBI of searching innocent people's property on paltry evidence, and then covering their * with a big fat wad of legal mumbo-jumbo when they dont find anything illegal.Unless they find something they think they can charge the person with, usually something they didnt know about, in which case he will rot in Federal prison "until the Queen's pleasure be known".No single criminal category has nearly as many unintended illegalities, and nearly as people rotting in jail for non-malicious crimes they never intended to commit.If you factor that in with the fact that non-violent gun-related crimes have the highest allowable jail times (second only to directly violent crime) possible in the Federal system, I think you should see the problem.The IRS became a monster many years ago. Luckily, they do not have enough power over everyone to destroy too many people.If the ATF is allowed to become a similar monster, it will annihilate gun-ownership in this country as we know it.Alright. Tirade over. Hopefully it wont earn me a trip to the local FBI branch office for some unpleasant close-contact with a phone-book while they demand to know if I've ever met Ted Kascinsky.
  • redcedarsredcedars Member Posts: 919 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mad, if you are inferring that I am a "looney" spouting "militant crap", well then, offense taken. Know-it-alls like you never seem to get in trouble, they just get someone else in trouble.I don't know if Sooper is knowledgable enough to determine if his gun has in fact been altered in violation of 922(r). I'm pretty sure no one can be certain if a particular ATF guy will THINK the gun violates 922(r), or, worse yet, has some other agenda.They have already sent him a notice threatening prosecution without regard to his intent, or not, to violate the law. Federal prosecution doesn't require crime, it only requires one agent and one deputy US Attorney who are willing to prosecute, whatever the real agenda is. They are not playing with their own chips; it costs them absolutely nothing to file charges. At that point, you lose, even if they drop the charges later. Since you apparently don't follow the news, I suggest you study up on the subject. I'm glad your contacts with the ATF have been cordial. Unfortunately, far too many folks have had bad experiences with this agency. Their recent history is so replete with offenses against the rights of citizens that any responsible citizen should already be aware of many of them.I stated above that I believe the bad apples in the ATF barrel to be in the minority. Nevertheless, I have urged sooper to use the utmost caution in dealing with these people for good reason, that reason being that he may run across one or two of the bad ones. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure in that case.And for what its worth, I think it is pretty damn stupid to have a cozy personal chat with ANY law enforcement agents who have already threatened you with prosecution, let alone to voluntarily hand over evidence which they may not be entitled even to see without a warrant. There should be NO further conversations with these guys until he consults a lawyer who understands 922(r) and has experience dealing with these folks.redcedars
  • whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    hey redcedars, you've been missing for a while. How ya been?Clouder..
  • madminutemadminute Member Posts: 68 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    WELL...guess you told ME, didn't you? Gosh, I'm so ashamed of myself....OK, disregard anything I said. Wipe all your fingerprints from the gun, have a criminal attorney on your right, a civil attorney to your left, and the rifle on a table in front of you. Set up video cameras around the room concealed. And let the criminal attorney do all the talking. Let the ATF agent pick up the rifle himself. Don't touch or say anything. Be sure to have in addition to the documentation for the weapon any licenses you hold, a printout from local law enforcement of your record, and an Equifax credit report. And be sure your drivers license isn't expired. In the event that they do decide to drive a tank into your house and set it ablaze with gas grenades, please use the lawyers as human shields. Especially the civil attorney. Now does that advice make you happy?
  • simonbssimonbs Member Posts: 994
    edited November -1
    Madminute, why are you being so defensive? You started the name calling, Red was just defending his position and letting you know how he felt about the label you placed on him. We have different opinions, so what? There is no reason for the sarcasm or name calling. Its just advice to someone who may/may not need it and may/may not use it.
  • redcedarsredcedars Member Posts: 919 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hi Clouder:Doing ok, but haven't been around as much as I would like but I've been pretty busy with other stuff. Trying to get back to what passes for normal around here.....redcedars
Sign In or Register to comment.