Excessive headspacing-->KABOOM?-->Death?

competentone

I was reading the "7.62 Nato vs. 308 Winchester" discussion on the Experts board and comments were made implying that excessive headspacing could cause a failure which could "blow a person's head off".

Does anybody have verifiable statistics about how many people are killed or seriously injured (injury requiring--let's say--hospital emergency room treatment) for firearm accidents involving "ruptures"?

Essentially I'm trying to get a good idea about how "dangerous" modern firearms are to life and limb if they go "kaboom"?

I would assume the biggest risk in the event of a catastrophic failure would come from "shrapnel"; I can see this happenning if a barrel/chamber "ruptured". But would there be catastrophic firearm damage and significant shrapnel in a "headspace" problem?

How many people have died in the past 30 years in incidents of "guns exploding"?

Anybody have numbers?

What about your own experiences? Please keep it to your personal experience; no hearsay!





Edited by - competentone on 09/18/2002 00:45:21

Jody Commander

Can't say, I suppose there is some place that has some statistics, or you could just call the headquarters of H.C.I. or some of those other anti gun organizations and have them make some up.

doomsknight62

I was worried about the same thing with my Glock. Well, I looked into it awhile back, and got the chance to ask a lot of people about it. Most of the people said they only needed some stitches in their hands.
...But that doesn't mean that people haven't died. I just haven't heard ot it. What may be true for Glocks is certainly not always true for rifles. A rifle rupture could be worse. Fortunately, I've never had it happen to me.

" God is in His Heaven, All is Right in the World. "

4GodandCountry

The worst thing I have ever heard of happening due to excessive head space is the bolt locking up so tight that it had to be beaten open with a hammer.

When Clinton left office they gave him a 21 gun salute. Its a damn shame they all missed....

allen griggs

A subject of some discussion on the Mauser forums has been the Spanish 7mm. This was a model 93 action which was converted to the cetme cartridge. This cartridge is the same size as the NATO. However the cetme developed lower pressure than the NATO, which in turn has lower pressure than the .308. So guys are getting these rifles and shooting .308 or NATO in them. The worst case I have heard of is the locking lugs will deform a little which gives excessive headspace. Then guys are getting blowback. So, if you are wearing your shooting glasses it is nothing, a little hot gas in the face. Have not heard of the gun exploding but maybe after a couple of blasts of hot gas the guy decides his gun is a wall hanger. You have asked a good question I would like to get some real statistics on this. I have heard of old milsurp shooters who scorn headspace gauges and who frequent the range with their old war rifles with no ill effect.

whiteclouder

comp'one:
I've had two head separations, both in 30'06. One was in a 98 Mauser, the other in a 03A3 S'field. With the Mauser I saw a blast of gas out the relief hole in the ring. With the O3A3, I ruined a pair of shooting glasses when the gas exited the rear of the bolt.

In neither case was there any danger of the bold or the chamber disrupting. There is a decrease in chamber pressure with a head separation. The danger comes from residue being left in the chamber or bore and the next shot encountering a restriction which can raise pressures enough to disrupt the weapon.

Clouder..

JustC

4G&C has what I would consider to be the answer to that question. The CASE failures are not that catestrophic, however, the OVERPRESSURIZATION is another story. I saw a picture of a guy's rifle (or the remains) who had gone to the range shooting a 270wthby mag and a 7mm mag on the same day. He accidently put a 7mm mag into the 270 box before he left. Next time he went to the range, he loaded the 7mm mag into the 270wthby chamber, AND THE BOLT CLOSED. KAAAAAABOOOOOOOOMMMMMM. The reciever was peeled like a banana, the barrel blew off and landed far away, the leupold was blown in half at the front ring, the chamber area was split and all of the pieces of the stock were never recovered. The study done afterwards stated that there was a 1 in many million to 1 chance that he wouldn't be seriously injured or killed, as luck would have it, he had a small scratch on his nose and that was it. However, in many cases like that one, the face and eyes of the shooter are usually severely damaged. modern rifles must be in good working order and well within specs to be safe, any headspace problems or chamber problems must be remedied immediately, especially shooting older military type rifles with modern ammunition. Just my .02

A great rifle with a junk scope,....is junk.

redcedars

Good question. Excess headspace usually gives obvious symptoms before it gets bad enough to result in catastrophic failure, like sticking bolt on extraction, flowing primers, etc. But not always. Often it causes enough damage the rifle can't be fired again, preventing catastrophe. The mechanism of failure depends to a certain extent on how much pressure is being generated at the precise moment of failure; obviously greater pressure causes more severe damage.

A case can fail without damage to the rifle, or it can destroy the gun as gas escapes any way it can, through the vents, around the bolt/receiver interface, or out ruptures in the barrel or receiver.

I corresponded once with a fellow who had the the receiver fail, destroying the stock and sending splinters, shrapnel and hot gases out the mag well; he had injuries to his leg and foot, and said he was still picking crud out of his leg a month later.

redcedars

whiteclouder

cedars:

quote:...flowing primers,...

The mechanism of failure depends to a certain extent on how much pressure is being generated at the precise moment of failure; obviously greater pressure causes more severe damage.

Be careful. Looks like you didn't learn your lesson last year. Or has it been two?

Clouder..

redcedars

Too long at the keyboard. Suffering brainlock. I have spent way to much time on this subject in the last few days.

Excess headspace and excess pressure are two problems which can come together when shooting .308W in old bolts rechambered to 7.62x51 NATO.

Excess headspace can result in weakened cases which are difficult to extract, or fail on extraction. It can also result in a ruptured case and the escape of hot, high pressure gas. As Whiteclouder points out, there is a decrease in pressure as the gas escapes from a ruptured case as the gas vents.The problem is, where does the escaping gas go? It doesn't just dissipate instantly. Modern guns vent this escaping gas far better than older designs. If there is insufficient vent area to relieve the pressure, hot gasses escape around the bolt head, out the magazine well, etc., which can cause catastrophic failure, or expose the shooter to the hot gases.

Excess pressure will obviously aggravate the problem. By itself, excess pressure will usually cause obvious symptoms like sticking bolt, difficult extraction, or flattened primers before catastrophic failure, unless it is way over pressure.

Clouder, not sure what you mean.

redcedars