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Family or Country? If you had to pick....

idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
edited September 2001 in General Discussion
The recent events have forced me to a moral dilemma that I hope I never encounter. As a recruiter, I live in the general population in an area where there is little to no exposure to military personnel. I'm a single NCO and live about 6 - 7 hours from my parents. I live in a small urban environment directly in the middle of a VERY rural area of the midwest. My parents live in an INCREDIBLY urban area where these types of attacks are more likely to occur. It has been alleged that there could possibly be 50 - 100 extremists awaiting further orders from Bin Laden. Should terror strike, would I be more honorable remaining here behind my desk as a recruiter or fleeing to the city to stand side-by-side with my family? When I enlisted, did I make my family sacrifice more than just my presence back home? These thoughts were brought about by memories of a soldier I once met who went AWOL to take care of his dying mother because the military slowed up and stopped processing his request for compassionate discharge and even the leave that he had already earned.
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I understand the legally binding aspect of a term of enlistment. I'm currently in my third. That which is legal sometimes conflicts with that which is ethical or moral. It may pale in comparison but I had a supervisor who once talked a teenager out of a barricaded bathroom who was about to slit her wrists. He did this by offering her a cigarette. Was it legal? No. However, he slept well that night in spite of the *$t0rM he went through over it.I am bound by the phrase "I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me". If I am ordered to take guns from citizens because it is "technically" legal as defined by a hypothetical supreme court decision, would it be ethical or moral? No. Would I be violating an order to which I am legally bound? Yes. This would also make it a lawful order. Do you see where things begin to gray now? Could a previous President be unfaithful to his family and still faithful to the nation? I don't think so. Can one be faithful to the nation if they are unfaithful to their family? I already know what I would do. I would not abandon my allegience to my nation because that is what I am sworn to do. I am looking for opinions of the general population here on GB.[This message has been edited by idsman75 (edited 09-18-2001).]
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  • Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Family comes before anything.I say again: anything.There's one reason why I'm not standing in line at the local Marine Corps recruiting office: my family. Who would care for my wife and child if I was in Afganhistan and a large scale civil disturbance erupted? Who'd get them to safety? The police? Bwahahahaha! The National Guard? They'd be too busy wasting looters to care after my family.Nope. I say family comes before anything, including your life. There isn't an oath on this planet that I would not break in order to save my family.
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  • Ross C. McDonellRoss C. McDonell Member Posts: 36 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ids - I understand your question. I too wear a uniform to work and I am currently in my 17th year. Many times in the course of that career I have not been with my family when they needed me. In fact if you ask my wife I have been gone more then a nation should ask. I however do not see it that way. Although I do not relish leaving my family I think the world needs the stability that we in the military bring. This new war is going to require more than military sacrafice. This will be a nation sacraficing together. We must root these S.O.B's out of hidding, look into their eyes so they see our resolve and take care of business. Let us bring fear to their hearts. It warms my soul to see the nation I have spent my life defending stand together and decide to take care of this vermin. It saddens me that it has taken this tragic event to forge us together. God Bless too all!
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  • joonya187joonya187 Member Posts: 10 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    idsmon:I can sympathise. I am er...a loner. My family (that being my parents, siblings. etc)live not too far from me (for which I deem myself fortunate). The very question came up a few months ago...a 'test, as it were.My father asked of me; "which would you put first, your family or your country"?My reply follows:Dad, I love you and I love Mom, but if a man HAS to make THAT choice, then I know, just like YOU would, that I would choose my country, and all that that implies"He actually cried. First time in my life I SAW the man cry. Then he told me that at least, if everything else goes wrong, that he did something right. Then it was my turn to cry.I love them, and I know that I do no honor to then being a coward. The only other thing he said was something like 'please know that we would miss you'.The first time I tried to enlist was at the urging of my dad. My dad was one of those few that missed 2 turns due to his family, etc. I'm what you would call a reject. I tried to enlist again it 91...nope. I just called a recruiter friend of mi9ne and he said 'In Your Dreams, bud".So what can I do?I gave blood, I donated money (what I could, tho not near enough), I called the NG and asked if I could volunteer. I am starting to feel pretty damned worthless, to be honest. SO, I talk. I tell my friends, I tell my neighbors, I went to one of the local schools and asked if I could address the students...'NO', I wnet to my alma mater and talked to some of the kids there.And all the while, as I try to do these things, I hear the voice of my dad, and I hope that I am doing 'SOMETHING'.May God bless us all in this hour of need.
    Remeber that "cold dead fingers" thing?...yeah....THAT [This message has been edited by joonya187 (edited 09-18-2001).][This message has been edited by joonya187 (edited 09-18-2001).]
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  • Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    "I love them, and I know that I do no honor to then being a coward. The only other thing he said was something like 'please know that we would miss you'."So I'm a coward for choosing my flesh and blood over a country that believes me to be the root of all the world's evil (A gun owner)?
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  • twinstwins Member Posts: 647 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Why turn someone away who is willing to fight? Oh I know, they don't fit the "mold" of the military. Good thing the resistance fighters of any war were perfect in fit and form. Use common sense, maybe you can't fight in the trenches ,but you could do things that would put the "able" bodied people were they would be the best used. This is in no way meant to slight any one persons job in the military.If I was not married with kids I would have signed sign up years ago. But I am married and do have kids. Who will yake care of my family if something should happen to me? Not the gov't or the military. Family first in this case, in every case. If you want to serve, stay single, because at some point after getting married and having kids you will say "my life is theirs, I will do everything I do for their benefit" What is the difference between a single parent family because of divorce, death or a traveling parent? There isn't one. I know many people who talk of the things and time missed because "dad" was away. And yes, they do hurt, no less than if they had not been there at all. Never forget, excuses are like a**H**es, everyone has one.Out of HS I wanted to sign up. The recruiter was such a * I walked away. I regret not signing up to this day. If I could do it over I would. Hindsight is 20/20. BUT, I do not think I would enlist now. Yes I said "do not think", not "would not".
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  • twinstwins Member Posts: 647 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I do not think that what is being talked about is your parents. It is Wives and children. A HUGE difference. Your parents can take care of themselves, so can your wife, but your chilren can't. Unless you have kids, you cannot tell me you know the gut feeling that is being discussed. When my dad died it hurt, it still does. BUT, comptemplate losing your own child, what you have helped create, it is different.
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  • mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Tough...tough...question.I would give my life for my family. I would give my life for my country.My parents and my brothers and I went to the 4th of July concert on the Capitol grounds in DC some years ago. Before Klinton, the orchestra would play the songs of the various services and those who had served in that branch would stand.My father was career Navy and served in WWII.My older brother was Army in Korea.I was USAF between Korea and Nam.My little brother was USMC in Nam.When they finished playing the service songs, all four of us were standing. That's the only time I ever saw tears in my fathers eyes.Probably doesn't mean much to anyone else but me.Mudge
    Anyone who CAN carry, SHOULD carry!Let me update that.Anyone who CAN carry, BETTER carry.
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  • twinstwins Member Posts: 647 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Dano, I threw in the part about kids, that was my own interpetation of Evil's thoughts. My wife would grieve but could exist without the support of me or my income. My children could not. This gov't would forsake them in a heartbeat. Then what? Family can take on many facets, but I really belive when children are in the picture, it changes ones perspectives on almost everything. Your's, or anyone's parents must at some time let go and stand back. When you have young children that you are responsible for, I think that things are looked at different.As I said earlier, if you want to be in the military, stay single. It will be easier on everyone involved. Family does come first when you have started your own.
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  • kimberkidkimberkid Member Posts: 8,858 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I think that wouldn't be a tough decision for me. At 44 and starting a 2nd family and have a almost 1 year old daughter, It would be a time when family would have to pull togeather and help take care of each other.If my country called, I would go. I know my wife and child would be protected and taken care of by her family. My parents are in their 70's and poor health but I know I could count on them to do what ever they could to help my wife & child to the safety of her much larger and rural family. Knowing her family, they would try to persuade my parents to stay with them also. Its something I would hate to do, but if called ...I know in todays America not all families are as tightly knit as my wifes', so that isn't an option for everyone. Each person has to evaluate for themselves; How can I best protect my Family AND Nation.
    GUN CONTROL: If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention!kimberkid@gunbroker.zzn.com
    If you really desire something, you'll find a way ?
    ? otherwise, you'll find an excuse.
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  • 4000fps4000fps Member Posts: 786 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Family above ALL....Honor....then country.
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  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    EvilATF- I like your analysis.
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  • twinstwins Member Posts: 647 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    No religious overtones at all. Merely thought out, put priorities in focus. Raise the kids or not be there as a parent should be. If at 20 a person has a 100% choosen carear such as that, they should have already made the choice of what they wanted to do more, help raise chilren or not. I used to work way to much ot, not anymore, 60 - 65 hrs a week leaves little time for family. My kids, my responsiblity. Unless I am unable or incompetant I need to be there. child rearing is not meant to be a one person job. Not all families have the option of relying on other people in the family.However, staying on topic, I still say no, leave the soldiering to the young and those who have not yet decided to marry and have children. The military recruits the young for many reasons, that is more than likely one of them. This country would be nothing without the blood, sweat and tears of the people in it and it is because of the family that we protect the country. We the people make the country. The country does not make the people.
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  • varmit huntervarmit hunter Member Posts: 1,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The decision was made for me, By my Mother when I was very youg.GOD, COUNTRY,FAMILY.
    A unarmed man is a subject.A armed man is a citizen.
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  • badboybobbadboybob Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mudge it means a whole bunch to me too.
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  • Ross C. McDonellRoss C. McDonell Member Posts: 36 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    To all - Well I was a young man (17) when I went to serve my country. I worked for a crusty old GMCS(SW) that Gunners Mate Senior Chief for the non navy types. He was just the first of many to make an impression on a then young Gunner, there have been many good ones since. I have been told by some of the sailors that have been in my charge that I have had a strong impression on them and their career. That being said, what would the military do without senior officers and NCO's? I can tell your it would be a body without bones, no structure, no experience nothing but an empty house. We could not fight for there would be no one to lead. Now I am 17 years in the navy, yes half my life has been spent here and I feel I have something to pass along to the new sailors. Now I understand that it is not easy to raise children alone. I understand this because I have three of them and I have been gone much of the time, in service of this country. I will not debate wither this is right or wrong for you, I am only saying someone has to do it. However the excuse of "who will take care of them if I am gone" does not hold water. If you are on active duty and are killed in the line of duty your wife gets a nice check $200,000 and your full pay and benifits for the rest of her life. Now you are gone but she is financialy secure. I am sure the mothers that raised children after all of this countries conflict did not wish to do it. But in time of war we all make sacrafices, all must serve. Now does that meen that you must be in the military to serve? NO. Everyone can find some way to serve if you do not enter the military that is ok. Stock up on ammo because like the war that won our indepenence this may be fought in the homeland and we in the military will be depending on those at home to help take care of our families in our absence. Let me thank you all for this support. God bless!Gunner.
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  • RedlegRedleg Member Posts: 417 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I am currently an active duty Army soldier (redleg...the profession of arms!)It is quite simple....my country is my family. My wife can take care of herself when the * hits the fan. I signed up to defend my family (read: country), not abandon my post when the first sign of trouble comes along.My first general order is: I will guard everything within the limits of my post and quit my post only when properly relieved.Quitting your post for anything is showing cowardice in the face of the enemy. There are soldiers under your watch who DEPEND on you manning your post, whether that be behind a desk in recruiting land or in a foxhole.If you have a moral dilemma about this, QUIT. Your mind will no doubt be elsewhere and not on the mission at hand. And, as an NCO, if you are not 100% focused on the mission, you will GET YOUR SOLDIERS KILLED. I will not allow that of my soldiers or NCOs.Redleg
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  • kimberkidkimberkid Member Posts: 8,858 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If history has taught us anything about war, its that there is a "Turning Point". Who is to say exactly who fired the shot that turned the war or saved a brother at arms that fired that critical shot.If the Nation falls ... where is your family then?
    GUN CONTROL: If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention!kimberkid@gunbroker.zzn.com
    If you really desire something, you'll find a way ?
    ? otherwise, you'll find an excuse.
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    twins--You don't just "reject" someone for military service because they don't fit a "mold". Pull your head out quick. If you put someone in the military who has athsma or knee problems or whatever the case may be and that becomes aggravated by training, then that person is medically retired and YOU--THE TAXPAYER(!!!)--are paying them disability for the rest of their lives. It's called being responsible with taxpayer dollars. Catch a clue. It's what us conservatives have been trying to get these stinking liberals to understand for years now.
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  • RedlegRedleg Member Posts: 417 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    idsman75,So you are saying it is wrong for a person to collect disability for medical conditions incurred while in the service?Well, *...then I guess you won't like me. I am an artilleryman and have shrapnel in my knee and a torn up shoulder. I will be medically retired within a few months. I will be collecting disability for the rest of my life, and you know what? That's great! It's a small compensation from the government for partially LOSING the use of my knee and shoulder as a result of MY SERVICE!Now, what's YOUR problem, friend?
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  • kimberkidkimberkid Member Posts: 8,858 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Redleg,I think if you take another look at idsman75's post you'll see he's talking about PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS!I don't think anyone here would deny benifits brought on by injurys sustained in training or defence ... or at least I hope not ... idsman75?
    GUN CONTROL: If you're not outraged, you're not paying attention!kimberkid@gunbroker.zzn.com
    If you really desire something, you'll find a way ?
    ? otherwise, you'll find an excuse.
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  • RedlegRedleg Member Posts: 417 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK, if he was refering to pre-existing conditions and people riding that gravy train on the tax-payer's ticket, then I agree with him, and I apologize for flying off the handle.Otherwise, I stay with my original statement that help from the government for my injuries is the least I would hope to expect.
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  • JudgeColtJudgeColt Member Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Everyone who answers the call puts his or her family second to country. It has always been that way. It has to be that way.When I was in Vietnam, I had no children, but many with whom I served did. That fact put them in a different mind set than I had. I missed my wife and family, but she and they would be basically the same when I returned. A small child would not. A small child changes so much in a year. Had I not returned, the adults would have been able to go on. If I had a child and did not return, that child's life would be altered a lot more than would the lives of the adults. When my father-in-law was missing in action in Europe, my mother-in-law was contemplating raising my wife, then an infant, by herself. When my father-in-law returned after the war, my wife did not know who he was, and it took a long time for her to warm up to him. That is the price for answering the call, a price that duty demands. That price has been paid by many and is mandatory once you take the oath.
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Redleg--I was referring to PRE-EXISTING conditions. A doctor has to place his career on the line when medically qualifying a person for enlistment. If that person has obvious pre-existing medical conditions that could be exacerbated by military service, the doctor can't qualify him/her because the military will be spending a ton of money on that individual to train them (minimum 12 weeks prior to combat per Congress) just to have them not complete training or get medically retired before their term of enlistment is up. This would be an individual that would be receiving disability for the rest of their life because of the oversight of the doctor and the doctor could get into trouble over it and rightly so. It is irresponsible abuse of taxpayer money. I agree that you should be compensated for injury/illness sustained in the line of duty.
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  • RedlegRedleg Member Posts: 417 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    idsman75....OK, my fault. No harm, no foul?
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  • mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well said Mr. McDonell.....There's a line from a John Wayne movie (the title of which escapes me at the moment) that I think sums it up pretty well...."Before the Chief took care of you, he took care of me. Before me, it was "Pop". Chiefs have been taking care of this man's Navy for a long time"Mudge
    Anyone who CAN carry, SHOULD carry!Let me update that.Anyone who CAN carry, BETTER carry.
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Redleg--No harm no foul. The greatest guys I've met since I've been in were 13-series soldiers.
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  • RedlegRedleg Member Posts: 417 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You're damn right!!!
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  • ghotie_thumperghotie_thumper Member Posts: 1,561 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Lots of good opinions here. I feel that once you've enlisted you made a commitment for your family to your country. Your immediate family gains strength knowing you are there serving your country. In the short run, going home to comfort your family may seem right, but the fact that you are there serving in any capacity the military has deemed necessary proves you love your family and your country. If all of the service men and women who missed their families left their posts at times like this, where would that leave the military? I served the country as a US Marine from 1983-1987. I'm an LEO now and once in a while am required to pack up and go to unhappy places. The family understands, the country needs you, Recruiters are a necessary part of the military. Recruit quality individuals who make you proud to be associated with them. Who knows you might recruit the soldier who makes a difference.
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  • dheffleydheffley Member Posts: 25,000 ✭
    edited November -1
    God first, then country. Under God (1st) he directs us in family. Therefore family is a subdivision of the God level. Then comes country. It's really fairly easy if you understand what all is included under the "God" heading. Just my beliefs. I find most of the "cowards" come from defending God.
    Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!
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  • Walt NunleyWalt Nunley Member Posts: 228 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Country first,been there done that.If I have to do it again thats ok also because as has been so eloquently stated if our country is not free then what good is it to our families?I love my family and that is why i would defennd my country,to my death if need be.Not to mention my son has a tough enough time with english much less rag or chinese.....
    Submarine Sailor,Truck Driver,and very bad typist.GO RUSTY #2
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