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Why can't LEO's know the L?

Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited October 2001 in General Discussion
I've ranted about this kind of thing before, but it happened to me again, so here goes:I snuck out of the store early today to put a few downrange at the local city-run shooting pit. The term "city-run", at least in my area, means that 99% of the attendees are Law Enforcement Officers. I've got no beef with LEO's in general, Hell, I'm the black sheep in my family 'cause I'm the only guy who didn't become one! They razz me about it everytime we get together. Anyhow, now that I've posted the disclaimer, I was at the range with my newest AK variant. For poop and giggles, I put a scope on her, bought a case of Wolf brand and lay down on my shooting mat. About 60 rounds into my slow-firing fun, a guy in a polo shirt that has the local city PD logo on it walks up to me. "Hey, kid! Stop firing a second", he yells.I stop firing, drop my mag, empty the chamber and lay the rifle down. I get up and say "Yeah, what's up?"The joker says, "You wanna go to jail? Is that it?" By now a small crowd of gentlemen in similiar polo shirts has congregated to my area. They've all got their long and short arms in their hands, still fully-loaded and ready to go. "I have no idea what you're babbling about, sir", I respond. (Hey, the guy pissed me off! I had to get a bit lippy!) I've had this happen to me a thousand times before, so I know where we're headed, and I'm not pleased."That an AK-47", Joe LEO asks."Yeah, it is. It's not a Class III, though. It's semi-auto only. In fact, it's a MAK-90, the politically correct AK. Not even a SAR-1. It's perfectly legal.""Oh yeah? You think I'm fulla ****? I suppose that's not a high-capacity clip, either?" he says."Well", I say "it IS a 30 round MAGAZINE, but that is perfectly legal to own in the area, too. I'd hope that YOU of all people would know that!"We went back and forth for a few minutes, with him swearing at me and threatening to arrest me and take my rifle. He began to lecture me about the Brady Ban and I swear to God I was ready to just kick him in the gonads and screw the consequences when a DEPUTY (read: NICE GUY) walks up and asks what the trouble is. Joe PD explains his version of my Usama Bin Laden Special. I go on to tell the Deputy my side of it. You know, about how it's a LEGAL firearm and all. The deputy tells the PD fella that he's a retard and mu rifle is A-OK. Joe PD skulks off mumbling along with his clique. Turns out I went to high school with the Deputy and he had recognized me. Glad he was there. I was still a little pissed, though, so I started packing up my gear. On the way out, I saw the Deputy taking HIS AK out of his rifle case an settling in for a bit o' practice.I just had to get it off my chest. Is it just MY area, or are most City PD guys real buttheads and the Deputies and Stater's are cool as all Hell?
Got President? Evil in 2012!
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    competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Evil,Yes, they're out there!Keeping your cool when dealing with "law enforcement imbeciles" can be helpful--they operate from a "brute force" position in an attempt to compensate for their mental deficiencies. It can throw them off-balance if you can maintain a calm, confident tone when dealing with them. Sometimes they respond better not so much to WHAT you say, but HOW you say it.
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    Trader DaveTrader Dave Member Posts: 791 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Send that transcript to his superiors regarding your encounter with Joe LEO. Describe in detail the language used and the situation too. That needs to be in his file. Knowledge of the law is not a strong point for many LEOs who like to quote LAW.I am a strong supporter of LEO's, however there are a few BARNEYs that need weeding out. Sounds to me as if you found one of those BARNEYs.
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    salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Probably will not do any good, but I would go to the range officers and tell them you were harassed by a mob of gun toters. Anyone pulls any nonsense like that at the range that I shoot at, they get a suspension.
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    luger01luger01 Member Posts: 230 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    SaxonPig-Great story. Proves you can catch more flies with honey. By being courteous but firm, you gave that bozo something to think about. People like that have no place in law enforcement. If they develop an attitude like you described, they need a "time out".Maybe LEOs should begin to lobby for laws that allow for them to take a sabattical when they need attitude adjustment periods. After all, the daily stress they are under could make the pope cuss. A 3 month paid leave to do community service work (volunteer activities) every 3 years could help burn out and keep LEOs in touch with their community.I think I'll have to write my State Congressman about that.
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    Smoky14Smoky14 Member Posts: 531 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Oh yea! And just how much BAD gun handleing was going on at the time by the LEO's. My son is an arms instructor for a popular federal law enforcement branch. He says he would rather deal with the bad guys than try to instruct most of the LEO's he has to deal with. He has almost been shot quite a few times on the range by LEO's. He visited our local range with me and commented that he wished that LEO's could shoot as well, were as courteous and could handle weapons as well as did our local shooters. There are many good LEO's and some just don't have good common sense. Sounds like you have an overabundance of those who lack good judgement. They have the gun but forgot to load their brain. Gives new meaning to "hollow point"!
    Respect for self Respect for others Responsible for all actions
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    Andrew AdamsAndrew Adams Member Posts: 227 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I"ve had a few runins with the type of LEO you are describing here. The best one occurred on I 79 when two LEO's pulled me over, yanked me out of the truck and told me they had "got me".At the point, I asked them what they had me for, and they replied that druggies like me deserved to die. I was a bit taken aback, as I'm not a druggie. They then informed me that they were going to search my vehicle, and I informed them that they had not yet instituted the Pennsylvania State Gestapo, and were going to have to get a warrant if they wanted to search. And furthermore, I wanted council present and am unable to afford it. I waited with them along the side of the road for a couple of hours until another cruiser pulled up with a Public Defender and a search warrant. They then proceeded to tear the interior of my truck apart for an hour and of course found nothing (I wasn't 21 yet, so no handgun).* #1 then thought he was going to just drive away. I told him that he wasn't leaving until my truck was back the way he found it, and made him put everything back where it belonged, including the garbage on the floor. The only explanation they gave me for their behavior was that my black Toyota (not many of those on the road) matched the description of a known drug runner's vehicle.During the three hours that I was detained, I managed to get the name and badge number of the two bad actors. When I finally got home (my mother was panicked, I told her that I'd be home from college in three hours, and it took over six) I immediately contacted my state senator, who is a neighbor and friend, and told him the whole story.He had me come over to his house and dialed the direct line to the Commandant of the PASP and had me tell him the story about his officers. To make a long story a little shorter, I testified at their dismissal hearing, and both were dismissed for their conduct.The moral of the story is that if you hold your ground when you know you are right, you can make progress and right injustice.
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    mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Evil...Ran into a similar situation myself. Had the old M-16 in full "rock 'n roll" when 2 county mounties showed up. Same scenario.Jumped out of their cars with hands on guns,told me to "put the weapon down and get on the ground". Like you, I dropped the mag, cleared the weapon, and assumed the position.The guys that were with me were standing there with a "what the hell" look on their faces because they knew I was legal with the piece. A couple of them tried to tell the "Barneys" that the weapon was legal and were told "we're not talking to you, so shut up". Like you, I had a friend, who was shooting with us, come to the rescue. He's a Sergeant in an adjoining county. He identified himself and explained that I was a personal friend and he could verify that I was legally in possession of a class III weapon. I told the "Barneys" that if I could retrieve the weapon, I had all the necessary paperwork in the pistol grip. They looked at the paperwork with the federal tax stamp and my picture on it and said "OK" and left. I'm sure the inspection of the paperwork was just for appearances and they had no idea what they were looking at.There were 2 other weapons there that were class III that they never even noticed. I guess they picked me because mine looks evil. It's got the short barrel and collapsible stock. Kinda puts ya' off on LEO's don't it?Mudge
    Anyone who CAN carry, SHOULD carry!Let me update that.Anyone who CAN carry, BETTER carry.
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    IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    LEOs reflect society at large. Some are sharp, some less so. But all of them go out the door every morning knowing that potentially they won't return. For that reason, I tend to be a bit tolerant of some behavioral issues. That said, Evil's pal probably should be pushing a broom rather than wearing a badge. Like someone is going to go shoot an illegal weapon at a municipal range patronized by LEOs? He's not going to make detective.
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    nunnnunn Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 36,018 ******
    edited November -1
    This is a mean thing to say, and I have run across moron cops before. I wish there weren't any, but there are.Here is the mean part:Surrender the weapon and submit to arrest. Memorize the names of all officers present. Get a receipt for your property. Make bail.See a lawyer. Not a criminal defense type, but one of those shysters that works on a percentage, and go after the officers and their agency.There could also be criminal charges in connection with the officer's actions. Official Oppression, Violation of Civil Rights, and so on.You could get one dummy out of the business and have a retirement nest egg to boot.
    Certified SIG pistol armorer/FFL Dealer/Full time Peace Officer, Egotistical Rogue, Evil, Dangerous Racist Moderator of the General Discussion Board on Gunbroker. Email davidnunn@texoma.net Jesus is Lord!
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    ED PED P Member Posts: 190 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I get frustrated at this. In Massachusetts, if you buy a gun out of state, you have to goto the police station and get a special form to fill out and mail into Boston, so you're registering it with the "Criminal History Systems Board". The name itself says it all about Massachusetts.I went to the police station about a mile from the gun store, just over the border in Mass, and there were 3 police on duty, none had ever even heard of this form, and had no idea they had to do this, even with guns they brought from the store. Had to drive to the next town where they knew what I was talking about.
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    badboybobbadboybob Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have never had a bad experience with a LEO in nearly 50 years of driving. Got stopped at a check point a few times, but they were professional and polite. I believe they are just like the rest of us - treat them with respect and they treat you the same way. The very few bad ones can be corrected by their sargeant.
    So many guns to buy. So little money.[This message has been edited by badboybob (edited 10-09-2001).]
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    SP45SP45 Member Posts: 1,758 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've been an LEO for over 23 years and a shooter for 40 years. There are less and less LEO who have an interest in firearms and many shoot only when they have to quailfy. Many are anti-gun and anti NRA. Most believe that it's O.K. for them to carry a pistol, even after they retire and that the general public should not. When at a call and there are firearms present, they look for a reason to take them. All under the umbrella of "public saftey". It's only going to get worse.
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    Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    "Cold dead fingers,"
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    Patrick OdlePatrick Odle Member Posts: 951 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I Have only had 2 unsavory experences with L.E O.s inmy entire life. My first was with a little coward behind a badge in Nashville Tn. in 1956. I had got drunk as a boiled owl and was having what I deemed in my drunkenstupor tobe a good time. I was in uniform, being stationed at sewart afb in smyner. He and another was making rounds of the joints looking for business, now keep in mind I have never been a criminal and never ran from the law or evaded them in any way. they put me in their black and white and took me to the lockup. the little one,a prime example of unskilled labor took me up stairs and when he let me in the cell spun me around facing him and started an unprovked swing at the top of my head. Well I don't know just how many out there knows what I mean when I use the term head shy. I would raise my arm drunk or sober just as anyone would blink their eyes. his sap hit me midway between shoulder and wrist,and hurt like hell. I made some reference to his ancestory and moved toward him hell bent onreturning the unsolicited favor. that was the last I new until I awoke in the A.M. lying face down in the tobacco spitten floor, with five lumps the size of my thumb on my head ,so me being head shy he placed those on my noggin after I was already unconsious. When they let me out that morning Iasked the desk seargent, what was the name of the little S.O.B.that locked me up last night. He refused to give me his name, but I found out later from friends of mine that had suffered similar at the hands of the same one that his name was butler. the rest of the time that I was stationed there I made apoint to watch for him in all the joints I frequented including the old 41 club,but fortunate for him our paths never crossed again. But if you are out there anywhere and you are not physically disabled, this old 67 yr.old diebetic with one heart attack behind him will meet anyplace of your choosing and give what I have owed you lo these many years. The other unpleasant occurance happened after I had outgrown my young and follish years, and had this friend who was a L.E.O. and would ride sometimes in his patrol car in a small towt in missouri. I was with him one night when he picked up a drunk aquaintance of mine and took him forthwith to the calaboosa. After locking in his cell we stood outside while I tried to ask him if he wanted me to tell his wife alice so she wouldn't worry. he said no that she would know where to look for him the next day. he said I would like a light though. I reached in my pocket for my lighter, as my L.E.O. friend showed a side I had never seen before,steeping between me and my friend in the cooler, he took out a book of gopher matches,striking one after the other and tossing them on the cell floor, saying while laughing loudly heres you a light heres you a light. after the third one I pushed him aside and lit the mans cigerette. That was the last time I rode with him and informed him as he took me home of what I thought of his actions of that night. For the most part I have had near perfect relations with the law, like all organizations they have their good and bad.
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    HerbyJrHerbyJr Member Posts: 41 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hey Evil,The short answer to your original question is that Cops are people too. Unfortunately, we've allowed our system of laws to grow to a point that no one could know all the laws. Granted, police officers should have a good firm grasp on the law and be certain they are right when trying to enforce laws, but it is my opinion that we have so many laws now that it is impossible to REALLY know them all.H.
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    IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Herby, I agree with you, but this particular officer seems to unfamiliar with the concepts of common sense and professional conduct, as well.
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    arthur wellingarthur welling Member Posts: 66 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I for one have never had a bad experience with an officer, including my dealings with the ATF. They did their job and followed the rules to the letter.On the other hand, I have heard many storiesfrom friends of trouble, including my MINISTER for God's sake! He was pulled over(for no reason according to him) and the local officer began interogating him as to where he was going and what he was doing. My minister happened to be recording a sermon when he was pulled over. Because of the way the officer acted he asked him his name and badge number.... just about then the officer saw the recorder was on.... and the officer left without another word....I heard the recording... just amazing.I understand THAT officer is no longer an officer.
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    turboturbo Member Posts: 820 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    No doubt this LEO was having an adrenaline rush. Some how or other I'am not persuaded that these rushes clear the mind, like PMS they seem to agitate more than help the situation.
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    boots62boots62 Member Posts: 10 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I spent several years as a LEO at the local and state levels. I met some good ones, but for the most part they were undereducated, underachievers, egomaniacs, and the only thing that seperated them from the people they arrested, was that they lacked the courage to commit their crimes without the badge. There is no 'Elite' force. That is a term we use to boost our own opinions of ourselves, to rationalize our behavior when we abuse our power and autority. We are all just men, whether you're local PD, county, state or federal.How do you want to be thought of when your just a 'regular' person again? People remember. Some never forget, just read above.
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    Walt NunleyWalt Nunley Member Posts: 228 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    COOL I HAVE OFFICIALY "CROSSED THE BOUNDARIES" OF GOOD TASTE,THIS IS THE FIRST THREAD IVE EVER HAD DELETED,IM SO EXCITED.I GUESS I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER THAN TO CRITICIZE LEO'S WHEN AN LEO IS THE EXALTED RULER OF THIS FORUM.I DID NOT USE OBCENITY NO VULGARITY...WHY???
    Submarine Sailor,Truck Driver,and very bad typist.GO RUSTY #2
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    Walt NunleyWalt Nunley Member Posts: 228 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK,OK,OK,I PUBLICLY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT I GOT MY THREADS SCREWED UP.I CONFUSED THE "DANO" THREAD WITH THE "WHY CANT LEO'S...."THREAD.TO ALL THOSE READING THIS MR NUNN DID NOT DELETE ME AND I AM SORRY FOR THE CONFUSION.ALL MY FAULT.WALT NUNLEYOH YEAH I STILL THINK THAT SOMETIMES YALL GO TOO FAR,YOU MENTION HEAD BUTTS AND ETC.... THESE ARE NOT LIFE THREATENING..I SUPPORT OUR LEO'S BUT NOT THE ABUSES OF POWER THAT SEEM TO BE SO PREVALENT THESE DAYS
    Submarine Sailor,Truck Driver,and very bad typist.GO RUSTY #2
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