Hypothetical thought on D-day

jonk

A few days ago at the range, I saw a fellow shooting a new AR-15 and the thing jammed every other round. I have heard of this happening many times, both with the AR and its close cousin, the M-16. Many people defend these guns; if you like it, fine. But consider this: had we gone ashore at normandy armed with M-16s, I shudder to think what might have happened. A little salt water and a little sand would gum up half the guns; plus, the Germans would be firing from distances the puny 5.56 can't touch with their mighty 8mms. I think we would have had a much tougher time of it- and I'm not sure we would have made it at all. Now, if our current military rifle would have failed in one of the most important(perhaps the most important) battles the U.S. has fought, what good is it?

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Wenn alles richtig ist, dann stimmt 'was nicht. -Nena (When everything is going right, something is bound to be wrong.)

royc38

Well from what I have seen along with the puny rifles we would also have puny youngsters to carry them and knowing their drive you wouldn't have to worry about them coming ashore because they ( 1/2 or better would be too chicken livered to try it). I am sorry to say they don't make generations like that anymore like back in 1944. I have a love-hate relationship with watching the old war documentaries. I love them because I get to see how tuff we were but hate them because they remind me how far we have fallen. Can you imagine Bill Clinton doing the "yesterday infamy speech". Kinda puts a very bad taste in your mouth doesn't it.

JudgeColt

If the fellow's AR-15 was jamming every other round, there was something major wrong with the rifle or the ammunition. I would suspect the ammunition as I once bought some commercial reloaded .223 that lacked sufficient power to operate the AR-15, but would work fine in my Mini-14. The AR therefore jammed frequently from "short recoil," almost every other round.The AR-15/M16 is a very reliable rifle with the proper ammunition. (Ball powder and the lack of maintenance was the cause of the troubles with the early M16 rifles in Viet Nam. It is disturbing to read the account of how the DOD was in bed with Olin and would not change the powder specification to the IMR powder for which the rifle was designed.) I would speculate that the M16 would have been an asset on D-Day.

alledan

In a situation like D-Day, i would prefer the comfort of the M-14. If by chance i made it to the beach I would want something that is capable of throwing good lead to the top of the cliffs in a relatively straight line.Some people would want the M-16 due to the lower weight factor however sometimes the extra few pounds of a rifle [M-14]and it's ammo disappear when one is scared and under fire.

Kadaver

First of all, I hold a high respect for any and all veterans, especially any from WWII, and i hope to meet a little old man who stormed Utah or Omaha, i think that that day would be the best day of my life.about the AR or m-16....i like them...but i believe that if that little old man carried a M-16 over a garand he would have died at Normandy. I would take an 8-shot garand over a m-16 with a drum mag anyday.no offense

boeboe

The M16/AR15 family has proven itself over and over in many tough situations around the world since the Viet Nam debacle. And not just by the US military, certain of our allies have used it as well. It is a fine weapon in certain circumstances.But I'm not saying the M14/M1A isn't a better all round choice.

ghotie_thumper

I submit the m14 or m1a has more knockdown power and inherent accuracy than the m16, but... I carried an m16 for 4 yrs in the Marine Corps, I got to fire the m16 in the SAW configuration also. Now I carry a Hbar-ar15. I have never had any one of them jam like described in the opening post. I have had a couple failures to eject/extract over time but I believe any semi auto weapon is capable of that occasionally. I do believe the military should go to a 308 for the general issue caliber. The 223 is used to inflict casualties not just kill. I was told that if you wounded one, it would take 2 to care for that one. I don't know who came up with that philosophy, and don't believe in it. [This message has been edited by ghotie_thumper (edited 09-07-2001).]

whiteclouder

Royc38:You think as much as half. Seems high to me. Tell you what, let's just say a third, no, twenty percent. Now, given that I want you to go into the NCO Club at Camp Lejeune and ask every one in five to step to the bar. Now I want you to again ask one in five of them to join the rest in the gallery. Now tell the remaining four percent that they are chicken-livered and you're there to prove it. We'll come by a little later and scrape up what's left of you and deliver it to your mother. Clouder..

whiteclouder

Saxon:So we instruct our artillery men to set the tac nukes to the 'light toast' position and tell our infantry to shoot for their legs. Oh yeah, set the torpedo's warhead to 'off' and only try to dent an enemy warship. And give the bombs our air force drops wings, or better yet, parachutes, and disarm them too, after all, we just want to break the odd arm or two.Patton said the object was, and I paraphrase, 'to kill the sombitch before he kills you.' Now he was an expert. It might be wise that we defer to him. For my part, I wanted the enemy dead, indisputably so and the quicker the better.Clouder..

Txs

I recall reading once where the basic ammo load for a rifleman going ashore on D-Day was 36 rounds for their Garand.I propose that if our troops had been able to pour a higher volume of fire toward the defenders, our casualties would have been less.On the Normandy beaches our troops were faced with defenders in heavy bunkers. Against such postions, the primary role of small arms is to suppress the defenders fire by keeping their heads down and allowing assaulting troops to approach with true bunker busting weapons. At that time it was a satchel charge or flamethrower.The 30-06 really shines when used at long ranges and for penetrating cover. I doubt if many of our troops made long range hits that day and they certainly weren't penetrating the fortified positions.

SP Tiger

Also remember that our guys were supposed to be going in with tank support. They were also told that the troops they would be fighting at Omaha were mostly conscripts, and wouldn't put up much resistance, and to top it off, the Naval bombardment would eliminate much of the resistance. Well, we all know what happened.

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Better to have and not need, than need and not have.

Andrew Adams

Jonk,Your post is correct, if you want to compare apples to oranges.If D-day was occuring now, the Germans would also be carrying 5.56mm weapons, so the M16 would not be outgunned. You can argue until you are blue in the face about whether or not armies should have gone from the big bores to 22's or not, but since they almost all went to the 22, the M16 is as good as any.Also, I realize it is heresy to say this, but let me relate to you what my great uncle said to me about Normandy before he died. BTW, he did go up the beach and recieved two purple hearts in France in June/July 1944.He told me that the troops were scared as hell about going up that beach, and that he didn't consider his generation any greater than any other. His take on it was that they were put in exceptional circumstances, but that any generation would have risen to the level that his did. He was a strong believer that the circumstances make the man, not the other way around. I'm not sure that I agree with him when I look around at my generation, but there is some truth to his statement. These people were not supermen, they were scared, they were human. However, they rose to greatness; my perpetually optimistic view is that any generation of Americans is capable of similar feats if they are required to be.

royc38

To whiteclouder:I am not talking about career soldiers, I am talking about average conscripts If another war of that magnitude was fought. I have the highest regard for our military (all branches including the overlooked Coast Guard). I know we don't have the draft but that size of a war would bring it back. I don't know where you are from but I have been all over the U.S. so I have probably been in your area and believe me we are not getting good replacement stock. I wrote the other reply more out of overall concern than anything else. As for the bar idea that would never happen. BUT... if say there were a few cowards that ran out on me in a deepsh##t situation drinking in there you might want to bring your 35mm camera wide angle lense. I hope I have cleared up a few things I don't want to be in the Vets dog house.