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Sent Daughter Off With Her Gun Today, Hope ....

tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
edited February 2004 in General Discussion
My 21 yearold daughter, my 15 month old grandson (named Colt by the way) and my daughter's boyfriend are taking a couple of days this weekend to go on the ever popular "roadtrip, " to another city here in Kansas, hundreds of miles away. Now I know the highways aren't swarming with criminals, but just as with a rattlesnake bite, it only takes ONE to kill you, or at least make you very, very sick. I first started my daughter with handguns when she was 7 yearolds old. The first gun she shot, and still has, was a Breretta .22 short semi-auto. She has been around and shot guns all her life. And it was not hard to teach her the few and simple rules. Treat every gun as if it was loaded, don't touch the trigger unless you intend to shot, don't point or pull your gun unless you intend to shoot. When not needed, unload your gun. It does not take 40 or more hours of training to teach these simple safety rules that probably everyone here already knows.

Now she owns several guns, but because of the storage I have available, I keep them for her. Today when she was getting ready to leave, I asked her if she wanted to take her Taurus model 85, .38 special, stainless with the bobbed hammer and 5 extra rounds. She responded by saying she wondered if I was going to allow her to take her gun with her. I replied that, even though I am her father, I am not like those left-wing, liberal anti-self defense people who don't trust the lawful American citizens to own, use and carry guns. I told her that she is a lawful, honest, and careful citizen and as far as I was concerned, she could do anything she wanted with her guns.

Now here is the kicker. KS is not a concealed carry state. The government doesn't trust us citizens to carry guns. So between the two of us we had to worry about how to best transport her gun so as not to get arrested. Our worry was if, for example, her car stalled alongside some deserted highway or if the unfamiler motel they were going to stay in was in a high crime area. In such a case it would be comforting to have a firearm at hand. So even though she is a lawful citizen and would never, ever cause a situation to harm anyone, expecially with her baby there, we had to agree on putting a trigger lock on her gun and putting it in her suitcase where, if it is needed, I HOPE she can get to it. Now we all know that she probably WON'T need it but as I posted earliler, it only takes one rattlesnake to ruin your day. I only wish the criminals would have to worry as much as two lawful citizens have to worry about not getting in trouble with the law. It is twisted when good, honest, lawful citizens have to worry about the police more than the criminals have to worry about the police.

Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    ZzzzippgunZzzzippgun Member Posts: 28
    edited November -1
    If the Founding Fathers had obeyed the law, there would be no United States. Some laws are written to be ignored. The ones affecting your daughter in this regard, are some of them.
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    you are so correct.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    bigtirebigtire Member Posts: 24,800
    edited November -1
    From what I understand about Kansas laws. She could leave it loaded in plain view on the car seat beside her and remain within the law. No trigger lock is needed. If she puts it in the glove box or trunk it must first be unloaded. Shawnee county deputy told me this so take it for what it's worth.

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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    bigtire: I appreciate your info, but when it comes to guns, the different city and county governments have decided to make it almost impossible to determine if you are obeying the law in a given city or county unless you actually live or spend a lot of time there and have chosed to ACTUALLY READ THE LAW for that local. In some cities you must have the gun locked in the trunk or a locked container. In other locations you can carry it on the seat next to you. But under those unpredicatable circumstances you cannot afford to take chances so you are forced too, as you travel, obey the strictest laws you know of. What a wimpy way for good American citizens to have to live their life.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    bigdaddyjuniorbigdaddyjunior Member Posts: 11,233
    edited November -1
    I insisted that my wife be armed when she had to travel late at night across Ft.Bragg four nights a week to work. It is illegal to transport a personal gun across the reservation, but I told her I would rather have to have a judge explain to me why I should send my wife defenseless then to have a call from the morgue to identify a body. No one can legislate away my common sense.

    040103cowboy_shooting_one_gun_md_clr_prv.gifBig Daddy my heros have always been cowboys,they still are it seems
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    bigtirebigtire Member Posts: 24,800
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by tr fox
    bigtire: I appreciate your info, but when it comes to guns, the different city and county governments have decided to make it almost impossible to determine if you are obeying the law in a given city or county unless you actually live or spend a lot of time there and have chosed to ACTUALLY READ THE LAW for that local. In some cities you must have the gun locked in the trunk or a locked container. In other locations you can carry it on the seat next to you. But under those unpredicatable circumstances you cannot afford to take chances so you are forced too, as you travel, obey the strictest laws you know of. What a wimpy way for good American citizens to have to live their life.

    If we did'nt have relatives here, we would move to Texas in a heartbeat.

    I will be dancing in the streets if/when that CCW bill passes.

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    And everything in between.
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Bigdaddyjunior: I totally agree with you that "no one can legislate away your common sense". Unfortuently, with the current situation in America, you and I can be PUNISHED for using our common sense. I don't know how it ever came to this sad state.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    bigdaddyjuniorbigdaddyjunior Member Posts: 11,233
    edited November -1
    Least I will be alive to be punished.

    040103cowboy_shooting_one_gun_md_clr_prv.gifBig Daddy my heros have always been cowboys,they still are it seems
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    bigdaddyjuniorbigdaddyjunior Member Posts: 11,233
    edited November -1
    I'm sorry Fox. That was a little crass. I'll say it this way: I don't pay a lot of attention to what the law says. The ten commandments and the bill of rights are about the only law anyone needs. The rest is just a bunch of nonsense for the most part. I do what I think is best and prudent for me and my family and if it gets me arrested I'll atleast have my say in open court in front of twelve people who I would hope atleast one of which has some sense.

    040103cowboy_shooting_one_gun_md_clr_prv.gifBig Daddy my heros have always been cowboys,they still are it seems
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    No problem. I know how you feel.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,844 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hope her trip is uneventful in "that" manner.


    The gene pool needs chlorine.
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Me too. And I sure it will be. Because even I will admit the anti-gun, anti-selfdefense people have a little truth on their side when they claim that the chance of the average citizen being the victim of violent crime is very slim and so we have no need to protect ourselves. I agree the chance of violent crime is very slim, but IT CAN AND WILL HAPPEN TO THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS EACH YEAR. And if you, or someone you care about finds themselves becoming the victim of violent crime, that tired phrase "the chance of this happening is very slim" will be absoutely no comfort while the innocent victim is being beaten, robbed, etc., etc.

    I always say that the time may only come once in a person's life, but when that one time does come and you find you need a gun for protection, because no other help is available, then at that particular time nothing else but a gun will do. And you better have one.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    The American Ideal.

    Be Prepared.

    Just too bad so many have forgotton..and the politicians work tirelessly to make it so.
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    FlatheadFlathead Member Posts: 318 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Let me be the devils advocate here. Why would she need a gun for this trip anyway? It sounds to me that she is in far more danger of getting in trouble for just carrying the gun. A trigger lock on the gun packed in a suitcase is like having no gun at all. Weigh the circumstances. Chances of running into said bad guy are about a million to one, chances of running into the law somewhere are almost absolute. If she is not in compliance of the gun law for that particular city Whammo here comes the fine and possable confiscation of the firearm.

    Why all the paranoia of being approached by bad guys while on the road. Every year I travel for 4 weeks straight on my MC all over this country,(yes Kansas several times) mostly on the back roads. I have been doing this for for over ten years now, been in some pretty ugly place's, NOT ONCE have I ever felt the need to have a firearm. I just dont get it, Not that I am against carrying a gun, I have my CCP myself. I do carry sometimes because there is the rare occasion that for me it is an absolute must.
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    HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    I guess that all those dead mutilated bodies we hear about are just figments of somebody's imagination.....

    And I MUST add... "For ME its a MUST..' What a pretensious statement.

    You critcize a 21 year old GIRL..with a baby,for God's sake..who is willing to defy the law to protect herself and her loved ones....So pray tell me..what are YOU defending...perhaps a full purse ???
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    FlatheadFlathead Member Posts: 318 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Highball
    I guess that all those dead mutilated bodies we hear about are just figments of somebody's imagination.....
    I dont know how I walked this earth all these years and made it this far not being armed every where I go. For that matter my father and his father and his father made it through without having to kill a bad guy( with the exception of war time) Just lucky I guess.
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    FlatheadFlathead Member Posts: 318 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Highball Your chances of being attacked at random are about as great or less than being struck by lighting. I guess you have to run out now and get a lighting rod and attach it to your head just "TO protect yourself"
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    bartobarto Member Posts: 4,734 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    My ?? has to be if she is going to travel without having the suitcase open & in her lap with the handgun key in her hand, WHY BOTHER?
    Trouble doesn't (imho) wait for people to rummage around in their trunk for weapons. No offense, but it just doesn't make sense to me.
    [xx(][xx(]barto

    Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names.-JFK
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    I really like it when people offer friendly differences of their opinion when compared to mine. Anytime there is an oppurtunity for such friendly debate the two conflicting ideas have to go head-to-head and the better idea can come out the winner. Or maybe even a new version of the best idea. So here goes.

    One poster basically disagreed by stating (I'll try to fairly paraphrase this) that you can't protect yourself from everything (like getting hit by lighting) and the fact that he and his relatives have never had to protect their lives means that they probably never will. As with any difference of opinion, there is a lot of truth in this position. But my side of it is that you protect what you can, when you can, anyway you can. I doubt anyone here would disagree that in the next 12 months there are going to be thousands of innocent victims beaten, robbed, raped, kidnapped, tortured and killed all across America. I don't want my daughter or her child to one of those victims. So, using that truth, please read my sentence above starting "But my side". Probably the best and most believeable people to give opinions about whether or not it is a good idea to try to always have some protection or whether or not it is possible to be a violent crime victim are the dead victims lying in the cementary; but unfortunately they aren't able to give an opinion. But I think I know which side of this discussion they would side with.

    Another poster stated to the effect that if the gun is in the suitcase, and inaccessible, it might as well be left home. I totally disagree with that logic. First remember that the gun is only there because the governnment requires it to be there. Not because we want it there. There could be a car breakdown along a deserted stretch of the highway. My daughter could decide at that point to get the gun, remove the trigger lock, load the gun and put it in her purse. At that point it is qickly accessiable if someone comes along that might be a threat. Read/listen to the news. Such dangerous people DO COME ALONG. Or once in their motel room, especially if this unfamiliar motel happens to be in a high crime area (cities have such areas, right?) she could put the loaded gun in the nightstand if needed. Read/Listen to the news. Motel guests have been attacked in their room. My basic point is that if the gun is home, and actually is needed on the road, it is absoutely, positively not going to be able to help you. If it is in the trunk you might have a chance.

    The interesting thing about people who say a violent criminal attack are unlikely to happen so there is no need to take precautions, are probably the same people who buy lottery tickets in the hope of winning the multi-million lottery. Your chances of winning the lottery are less than that of being a victim of violent criminal attack. Also, these same people who say something as terrible as a violent criminal attack is unlikely and therefore there is no need to plan for it, probably still pay for and maintain fire insurance on their house. EVEN THOUGH THEY PROBABLY HAVE NEVER IN THEIR LIFE, OR THE LIFE OF THEIR PARENTS, HAD A HOUSE FIRE.

    Points Stated. Thanks for reading.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    tapwatertapwater Member Posts: 10,335 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I too thought it was pointless to lock it in the suitcase...Your scenarios are a valid reason for that....Personally, I'd ...yes...break the law and carry loaded within reach. I commend you and your daughter for doing your best to stay within the law....

    The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    thanks for the commendation Tapwater.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    ruger270manruger270man Member Posts: 9,361 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well, if you just say "screw the law", and get caught, could ruin her future, with jobs, guns, etc.

    So I say, once she gets out of a car wherever she is going, to then have it on herself and loaded, concealled very well. As long as shes careful, there shouldn't be a problem.

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    HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    quote:Flathead Posted - 02/28/2004 : 07:30:38 AM

    For that matter my father and his father and his father

    All these are GUYS...guy. Not typically the ones victimized by "da hood"..as long as you stay away from them.

    Using your argument..( The exact same point made by the anti-gunners,might I add..)We might as well say that the Second Amendment is null and void because we haven't needed it for 200 years against a despotic government...

    The idea that your argument has any validity is a poke in the eye with a sharp stick to those who will become victims in the next 15 moments,2 hours,10 years....had they had the sense God gave a mouse,they would have defied Imperial Edict and protected themselves.

    Your argument has nearly convinced me to stop wasting emotions on "victims"..they are NOT VICTIMS...they are sheep,led to slaughter by Judas goats.
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    bartobarto Member Posts: 4,734 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    tr fox-
    Please don't misunderstand me. I agree the gun is better in the suitcase than at home BUT if someone is going to arm themselves when they THINK there might be a problem on the horizon aren't they just as illegal as if the gun was under (and much more accessable) the seat, in the purse, etc.??
    I also wonder about the ratio of sudden attacks (car-jacking & the like) to trouble during breakdowns or rest stop breaks (when one would have access to said suitcase.
    I have a concealed permit but in all honesty I gotta admit I ALLWAYS had a gun under the seat when travelling before I got it. Figured it was easier to get the permit than live with the consequences of getting caught. I'd do it again in a heartbeat, though.
    Okay, it's someone elses turn, now.[8D][8D]
    barto

    Forgive your enemies, but never forget their names.-JFK
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    FlatheadFlathead Member Posts: 318 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Give me a break highball, that is an insult to label me an anti gunner. My point is that there is not a bad guy hiding around every corner just waiting to mame and rob you. In this case like I said she has more of a chance to get pinched by the man than to even remotly need that gun. Read into it what you will, If you take it that I am anti gun, well so be it. Comparing lottery tickets to crime is a bit of a stretch.

    I guess my thinking comes from all the yahoos I see carrying that have a itchy finger just waiting to blast some kid for taking a wallet.

    How many violent offenders are gonna give you a chance to get to your firearm anyway. Lets just say Fox's daughter did happen to get carjacked, do you think the thug at the car window with the gun pointed at her head will give her a chance to reach into the waistband and pull the firearm? No, and when he does find the gun I hate to think of what he could do with it. The type of guy that is going to mame and mutilate (as you say) is not gonna walk up and say hey I am gonna kill ya so go ahead and pull your gun, These types that are out to do harm normally will have a weapon of some sort on you before you know whats even going on. I ask what good is the gun now?? Do you reach for your gun at the sight of every stranger?? Oh sorry about the gun lady I thought you might be out to kill me!!! There is a very Good chance in a bad situation the bad guy might even use your own gun to kill you or at the least take your nice piece of iron. I look at things from a realistic point of view is all.


    I figure just about everyone here will disagree, but that is what I believe.


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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Originally posted by barto

    I also wonder about the ratio of sudden attacks (car-jacking & the like) to trouble during breakdowns or rest stop breaks (when one would have access to said suitcase.

    barto
    Barto, I think I understand you enough to believe that we agree much more than we disagree. But "ratios" mean nothing when it is you facing a violent attack and you are looking for something to use to save yourself.

    Flathead: Again, I am not claiming bad guys to be lurking around every corner. But you must admit they are lurking out there somewhere. Otherwise, why the thousands of rape and murder victims each year? And if one could perdict just when and where they are going to bump into one of these bad guys, I would hope that poetential victim would have enough sense to change their plans so as to avoid the confortation entirely. But it cannot be predicted. Thus my desire to always be prepared. Because violent crime, if it happens to you at all, will probably only happen to you once in your life. And you had better be prepared for that one time, because it will not be a dress rehearsal and there are no "retakes".

    The stretch about comparing crime to the lottery was actually comparing some people's attitude to the likelyhood of any particular person becoming the victim of violent crime. Many of the left-wing, liberal anti-selfdefense critics will claim that your chances of becoming a victim are so small that no one should even think about it. But those same doubters will then go out and purchase a lottery ticket hoping to win the lottery. They have a bigger chance of being a victim of violent crime than of winning the lottery. This is just an example of their goofy logic.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Flathead: Using your logic an argument could be made for the police not even needing or using holsters, just walk around with their guns in their hands ready to use them. Because if they encounter an armed bad guy who already has his gun out and ready, then it is too late for the cop to pull his. You know it doesn't work like that. In fact I had a conversation similar to this with a pacifist guy at work a few weeks ago. He was describing his brother-in-law who illegally carried a gun in his car under the seat and sometimes in his pocket (I am not advocating law breaking). This pacifist told him brother-in-law "what good is that gun going to do you under the seat or in your pocket? By the time you get it out, it will be too late." I disagreed and said that he was way too willing to give up the fight even before it started. I named several reasons why his logic was faulty. #1 the brother-in-law might be lucky enough to spot the trouble coming and be able to react properly. IE, run, hide, call for help or as a last resort pull his gun. #2 Many criminals aren't familiure with guns and shooting and might miss the victim giving the victim time to react properly. #3 Continued from #2, attacker might not have been smart enough to have chambered a round. #4 Continued from #2, attacker might have loaded his/her gun with wrong ammo and cause a malfunction. #5 Attacker might only wound victim thereby giving victim chance to react properly. #6 Sound of gunfire might act as a signal and quickly summon help. #7 And perhaps the most important YOU WOULD GO DOWN FIGHTING BACK INSTEAD OF BEING A PASSIVE SHEEP LEAD TO SLAUGHTER. JMHO.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    jpwolfjpwolf Member Posts: 9,164
    edited November -1
    #7 fox, that's the one. It is unimaginable to me that there are actual real people out there who think this is the proper way to do it, that you don't have a right to defend yourself in a "it's him or me" situation. But they truly exist.
    And another point you already made, taken a step farther, about the "people's goofy logic". These same people are often packing, case in point Sen. Swinestein.

    ________________________________________________________________________

    "If there must be trouble let it be in my day, that my child may have peace" -Thomas Paine

    If the people have become so apathetic that they will not vote out all the liberal scum (republican and democrat alike), the only solution is Constitutional Convention II the sequel. Let's get it right this time.
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    Hi Wolf. We progun people are letting a HUGE, TREMENDOUS, WONDERFUL oppurtunity to publicly embarrass that Calif Witch Diane Badstein about her packing (or perhaps USED to pack since maybe no need to now with her taxpayer provided bodyguards, if any). And all the while she is fighting her best to snatch all guns from lawful Americans. Public embarrassment is the first step to getting rid oa ANY politician. How do we go about it?

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    quote:My point is that there is not a bad guy hiding around every corner just waiting to mame and rob you.
    So freakin' what ? It just takes ONE corner..


    quote:I guess my thinking comes from all the yahoos I see carrying that have a itchy finger just waiting to blast some kid for taking a wallet.
    When one persists in using anti-gun arguments to try and 'prove' the point...I do not brand one anti-gun..you do it to yourself.

    quote:How many violent offenders are gonna give you a chance to get to your firearm anyway
    Happens about once a month around here..people are TIRED of being raped,robbed,and killed....A Doctor and his wife were abducted about a month ago...they drove for nearly 200 miles before the doctor could get to the gun his wife carried...he didn't get the perp killed..but did manage to get them away..

    Real sorry..but I cannot share your particular head-in-the-sand position.I was taught by some pretty good people to try real hard to be prepared......I think it behooves us to get EVERYBODY up to speed to defend themselves.
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    OH YEAH!

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    bigdaddyjunior--I wouldn't worry. Your wife wouldn't be charged under North Carolina's penal code. She'd be charged under Title 18 of the United States Code. We know how wimpy the long arm of the law is when it comes to enforcing federal firearms laws. The more thuggish and onagerish she acts, the less likely they are to punish her.
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    bigdaddyjuniorbigdaddyjunior Member Posts: 11,233
    edited November -1
    One cannot apply logic to the random acts of criminals. One second all is right with the world and the next some punk comes out of nowhere with a knife or gun and means you harm. You can either be ready for this or not.

    040103cowboy_shooting_one_gun_md_clr_prv.gifBig Daddy my heros have always been cowboys,they still are it seems
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    tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    BigDaddyJunior:how correct you are. The anti-selfdefense, liberal left wingnuts all seem to think like the criminal will give the potential victim (there's thousands of em each year) a chance to call the police. What a joke.

    Quote "Somehow government decided that the Constitutional Bill of Rights has become the Bill of "Suggested" Rights and are to be rationed to the citizens as the power elite sees fit"
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    greeker375greeker375 Member Posts: 3,644
    edited November -1
    Bottom line for Tr: I'd rather she have it and not need it, rather than she need it and not have it.

    "the difference between the almost right word and the right word is like the difference between a lightning bug and a lightning bolt" - Mark Twain.
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    HighballHighball Member Posts: 15,755
    edited November -1
    Let me tell you what is truly heartbreaking;

    Those who would send this young woman and her baby down the road defenseless.

    I can understand those who hate guns thinking this perverted way...what I absolutely cannot understand is those who purport to be pro-gun thinking this way.

    A government that DEMANDS that the citizen have no means to defend oneself...is to be feared.NO government that I respect will be feared....
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