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America Down..do you understand yet ?
Highball
Member Posts: 15,755
Soon,these decisions WILL have the force of law....
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040401/D81LLVDG0.html
Court Orders U.S. to Review Mexican Cases
Mar 31, 7:17 PM (ET)
By ANTHONY DEUTSCH
THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) - The world court ruled Wednesday that the United States violated the rights of 51 Mexicans on death row to receive diplomatic help, and ordered Washington to review their cases.
The ruling by the International Court of Justice could mean a reprieve or another chance of appeal for the inmates, including one scheduled to die May 18 in Oklahoma. It also could have implications for other foreign citizens in U.S. prisons who were not told they could receive help from their governments.
The order raised questions from the eight states holding the inmates, but no assurances that the states will try to address the court's concerns.
Some states were seeking advice Wednesday from the U.S. State Department, but several officials said they doubted the ruling would affect their execution plans. Officials in Oklahoma and Texas, where three of the Mexican inmates are on death row, said no immediate action was being taken in those cases.
(
"I don't see the world court as being the same as the U.S. Supreme Court, where we'd immediately have to jump and say we'll do it," said Nevada Deputy Attorney General Dave Neidert.
U.S. officials will study the decision carefully, said State Department spokesman Adam Ereli, adding that the United States has tried to comply with the requirement that consular access be granted to Mexican and other citizens detained on U.S. soil.
It was the second time the highest U.N. court has ruled the United States broke the 1963 Vienna Convention, which protects foreigners accused of serious crimes. In 2001, Arizona ignored a court order to stay the execution of a German citizen.
Although the court dealt specifically with the cases of 52 Mexicans, it cautioned the principle should apply to all foreigners imprisoned for serious crimes. There are 121 foreign citizens on U.S. death row, 55 of whom are Mexican, according to the Death Penalty Information Center.
It would be wrong to assume the court's conclusions "in the present judgment do not apply to other foreign nationals finding themselves in similar situations in the United States," said the ruling by a 15-member panel.
(AP) Arturo Dager, a legal adviser of Mexico's Foreign Relations Department, during a news conference in...
Full Image
The court backed virtually all of Mexico's main arguments, presented in December.
"The U.S. should provide by means of its own choosing meaningful review of the conviction and sentence" of the Mexicans, presiding judge Shi Jiuyong said.
Shi said the review, in all but three cases, could be carried out under the normal appeals process in the United States.
Arturo Dager, a legal adviser with Mexico's Foreign Relations Department, said the court's findings were "a triumph of international law."
"Mexico was not vindicated. The rule of international law was vindicated. Of course we are confident the United States will fully comply with the ruling," added Mexican Ambassador Juan Gomez Robledo.
(AP) The 15 judges of the International Court of Justice, also known as the world court, stand in The...
Full Image
David Sergi, who represents Texas prisoner Roberto Ramos, said the ruling "will give us a chance to litigate a lot of issues that were not addressed at trial." He said it could lead to a retrial or at least a sentencing review for his client.
For the three defendants who have exhausted all appeals, the United States should make an exception and review their cases one last time, the court said.
If the United States doesn't abide by the ruling, Mexico intends to take further legal steps, according to a Mexican diplomat. Countries that fail to comply with court rulings can be referred to the U.N. Security Council for "appropriate action," according to the court's statute.
Even if Washington accepts the decision, it's unclear if federal authorities have the power to enforce it or compel individual states to abide by it.
In hearings in December, lawyers for Mexico argued that any U.S. citizen accused of a serious crime abroad would want the same right, and the only fair solution for the men allegedly denied diplomatic help was to start their legal processes all over again.
The United States had argued the case was a sovereignty issue, and that the 15-judge tribunal should be wary of allowing itself to be used as a criminal appeals court, which is not its mandate.
Besides Ramos, the court ordered a special review for fellow Texas inmate Cesar Fierro, and Osbaldo Aguilera Torres, in Oklahoma. Torres is set to be executed on May 18.
Fierro was convicted of shooting a taxi driver to death, Ramos was convicted of killing his wife and two children with a hammer, and Torres was convicted of killing two people during a burglary.
Mark Henrickson, who handled Torres' appeals, said he hopes Oklahoma will comply with the ruling and that his client will be given a new trial.
"The U.S. frequently asks that nations abide by international law and I think we need to abide by international law," Henrickson said.
But Oklahoma Gov. Brad Henry plans no action in the case until after a May 7 clemency hearing before the state's Pardon and Parole Board.
Other Mexicans are on death row in Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Nevada, Ohio, and Oregon.
The U.S. Supreme Court has refused to be drawn into the international debate over foreigners on death row. In November, the court declined to hear an appeal from Torres, although two of its more liberal members - Justice Stephen Breyer and Justice John Paul Stevens - had misgivings.
Mexico does not have the death penalty. In 2002, Mexican President Vicente Fox canceled a visit to President Bush's ranch in Texas to protest the state's execution of convicted police killer Javier Suarez Medina, a Mexican national. The Supreme Court had refused to hear his appeal.
It is the third time the United States was brought before the court over death penalties imposed against foreign nationals.
Germany lodged a suit in 1999, seeking a ruling on the execution of two German brothers, convicted for murder after a botched robbery. Karl LaGrand was executed before the court could intervene. His brother, Walter, was executed later despite the decision.
Paraguay filed suit against the United States in 1998 to stop the execution of its citizen, Angel Francisco Breard, on Virginia's death row for murder and attempted rape in 1992. It withdrew the case, also based on the Vienna Convention, after Breard was executed
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040401/D81LLVDG0.html
Court Orders U.S. to Review Mexican Cases
Mar 31, 7:17 PM (ET)
By ANTHONY DEUTSCH
THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) - The world court ruled Wednesday that the United States violated the rights of 51 Mexicans on death row to receive diplomatic help, and ordered Washington to review their cases.
The ruling by the International Court of Justice could mean a reprieve or another chance of appeal for the inmates, including one scheduled to die May 18 in Oklahoma. It also could have implications for other foreign citizens in U.S. prisons who were not told they could receive help from their governments.
The order raised questions from the eight states holding the inmates, but no assurances that the states will try to address the court's concerns.
Some states were seeking advice Wednesday from the U.S. State Department, but several officials said they doubted the ruling would affect their execution plans. Officials in Oklahoma and Texas, where three of the Mexican inmates are on death row, said no immediate action was being taken in those cases.
(
"I don't see the world court as being the same as the U.S. Supreme Court, where we'd immediately have to jump and say we'll do it," said Nevada Deputy Attorney General Dave Neidert.
U.S. officials will study the decision carefully, said State Department spokesman Adam Ereli, adding that the United States has tried to comply with the requirement that consular access be granted to Mexican and other citizens detained on U.S. soil.
It was the second time the highest U.N. court has ruled the United States broke the 1963 Vienna Convention, which protects foreigners accused of serious crimes. In 2001, Arizona ignored a court order to stay the execution of a German citizen.
Although the court dealt specifically with the cases of 52 Mexicans, it cautioned the principle should apply to all foreigners imprisoned for serious crimes. There are 121 foreign citizens on U.S. death row, 55 of whom are Mexican, according to the Death Penalty Information Center.
It would be wrong to assume the court's conclusions "in the present judgment do not apply to other foreign nationals finding themselves in similar situations in the United States," said the ruling by a 15-member panel.
(AP) Arturo Dager, a legal adviser of Mexico's Foreign Relations Department, during a news conference in...
Full Image
The court backed virtually all of Mexico's main arguments, presented in December.
"The U.S. should provide by means of its own choosing meaningful review of the conviction and sentence" of the Mexicans, presiding judge Shi Jiuyong said.
Shi said the review, in all but three cases, could be carried out under the normal appeals process in the United States.
Arturo Dager, a legal adviser with Mexico's Foreign Relations Department, said the court's findings were "a triumph of international law."
"Mexico was not vindicated. The rule of international law was vindicated. Of course we are confident the United States will fully comply with the ruling," added Mexican Ambassador Juan Gomez Robledo.
(AP) The 15 judges of the International Court of Justice, also known as the world court, stand in The...
Full Image
David Sergi, who represents Texas prisoner Roberto Ramos, said the ruling "will give us a chance to litigate a lot of issues that were not addressed at trial." He said it could lead to a retrial or at least a sentencing review for his client.
For the three defendants who have exhausted all appeals, the United States should make an exception and review their cases one last time, the court said.
If the United States doesn't abide by the ruling, Mexico intends to take further legal steps, according to a Mexican diplomat. Countries that fail to comply with court rulings can be referred to the U.N. Security Council for "appropriate action," according to the court's statute.
Even if Washington accepts the decision, it's unclear if federal authorities have the power to enforce it or compel individual states to abide by it.
In hearings in December, lawyers for Mexico argued that any U.S. citizen accused of a serious crime abroad would want the same right, and the only fair solution for the men allegedly denied diplomatic help was to start their legal processes all over again.
The United States had argued the case was a sovereignty issue, and that the 15-judge tribunal should be wary of allowing itself to be used as a criminal appeals court, which is not its mandate.
Besides Ramos, the court ordered a special review for fellow Texas inmate Cesar Fierro, and Osbaldo Aguilera Torres, in Oklahoma. Torres is set to be executed on May 18.
Fierro was convicted of shooting a taxi driver to death, Ramos was convicted of killing his wife and two children with a hammer, and Torres was convicted of killing two people during a burglary.
Mark Henrickson, who handled Torres' appeals, said he hopes Oklahoma will comply with the ruling and that his client will be given a new trial.
"The U.S. frequently asks that nations abide by international law and I think we need to abide by international law," Henrickson said.
But Oklahoma Gov. Brad Henry plans no action in the case until after a May 7 clemency hearing before the state's Pardon and Parole Board.
Other Mexicans are on death row in Arizona, Arkansas, California, Florida, Nevada, Ohio, and Oregon.
The U.S. Supreme Court has refused to be drawn into the international debate over foreigners on death row. In November, the court declined to hear an appeal from Torres, although two of its more liberal members - Justice Stephen Breyer and Justice John Paul Stevens - had misgivings.
Mexico does not have the death penalty. In 2002, Mexican President Vicente Fox canceled a visit to President Bush's ranch in Texas to protest the state's execution of convicted police killer Javier Suarez Medina, a Mexican national. The Supreme Court had refused to hear his appeal.
It is the third time the United States was brought before the court over death penalties imposed against foreign nationals.
Germany lodged a suit in 1999, seeking a ruling on the execution of two German brothers, convicted for murder after a botched robbery. Karl LaGrand was executed before the court could intervene. His brother, Walter, was executed later despite the decision.
Paraguay filed suit against the United States in 1998 to stop the execution of its citizen, Angel Francisco Breard, on Virginia's death row for murder and attempted rape in 1992. It withdrew the case, also based on the Vienna Convention, after Breard was executed
Comments
Mark T. Christian
That says enough for me to ignore it, right there![;)]
How you doin'!
Wouldn't you like the right to see someone from the American Embassy if you were arrested in a foreign country? Can't have your cake and eat it too--much too messy.[}:)][;)]
There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.
Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
Bush signed a decree..RENEWABLE ON A YEARLY BASIS...denying the World Court access to US solders as war criminals..
One does not have to be a soothsayer to see the direction things are going....
There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.
Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
And if we want to act in a unilateral fashion in all matters, then we'd better smile when other nations behave the same way.
"Sorry America, but Kim Jong Il has heard that you had WMDs and were engaged in arming the enemies of North Korea. As an act of pre-emptive self-defense, North Korea has just nuked the United States."
What's good for the goose is good for the gander... so let's not give anyone an excuse to act irresponsibly.
Invite their embassy/consular official to their execution!
A conviction is a conviction. If you don't want to face American justice then don't commit the crime.
That should not be a hard one to figure out.
Justice through Valor
"Blessed be the Lord, my rock, who trains my hands for war" Psalm 144
America FIRST.
Screw you one Worlders.
That entails remaining strong..and being willing to erase those that trespass.
That also entails staying the h**** out of others problems as part of the package.
The 'prisoners' in Cuba ? They would have been tried on the battlefield..and duly executed.
I have a simple philosphy..being a simple man.
America FIRST.
Screw you one Worlders.
That entails remaining strong..and being willing to erase those that trespass.
That also entails staying the h**** out of others problems as part of the package.
The 'prisoners' in Cuba ? They would have been tried on the battlefield..and duly executed.
What Highball said!
The UN Human Rights Committe is co-chaired by Cuba and Libya.
The Security Council's permanent members include . .
China - a nation that has rounded up and killed 50 million of their own citizens in the last century, and allowed an additional 50 million to die by starvation and mob rule that was the direct result of Mao's "Great Leap Forward" and "Cultural Revolution."
Russia - A nation that has rounded up and murdered over 30 million of thier own citizens in this past century. They also imported a nice little social experiment called "Communism" around the world, resulting in staggering human physical and mental trauma.
France - A nation that stood by and/or facilitated the slaughter of over 10 million individuals by Nazi Germany.
Great Britain - The most respectable of the group - but falling fast.
And let's not forget our rotating members - (this just off the top of my head - so forgive me if they are no longer current)
Germany - see "France"
Cote d Ivorie (sp) - a backwater cesspool of West Africa that periodically has to be bailed out by thier former colonial master - France.
Syria - More Iranian terrorist funds gets funneled through there than we can track. And if you liked Hussein, you'll love Assad.
Yes, we really should model our country and our society after these people! Let's give up our soverienty to them now!
The United States: A nation founded by slave-owners and expanded through the genocide of millions of American Indians and/or wars of aggression against Mexico.
You can slant any nation's character to make it look like the world's biggest ba$&ard because no nation on Earth is so clean that it doesn't have something completely reprehensible about its past.
Highball: quote:Bush signed a decree..RENEWABLE ON A YEARLY BASIS...denying the World Court access to US solders as war criminals..Excuse me, but isn't Bush and company holding a number of people on an Island somewhere and depriving them of the Geneva Convention Accords? Isn't there a US Military Kangaroo Court being established to try them? Hmmm. New American justice--hang 'em first and then find them guilty. BTW, weren't these prisoners captured on a battlefield? In a foreign country? By American soldiers invading that country? Hmmmm.[}:)]I guess JUSTICE WILL BE SERVED (somehow). [;)][:(]
Yes they were captured on a battlefield. And since they were un-uniformed combatants we are allowed to shoot them as spies. So which does your bleeding heart want? hmmmmm?
There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.
Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
Those people who see nothing but grey areas, no black and white, are lost in the fog.
Question for you: What uniforms did the Taliban military forces use? Was there a uniformed military service in that country? I really don't know. I'd appreciate knowing if you have the answer. Thank you.
There is always one more imbecile than you counted on.
Don't assume malice for what stupidity can explain.
Hairy please send the explanation to all of this to me in an email.
not joking cause if BR & Classic says your OK and a stand up guy then I belive you are.
Ron
1st of the 5th SF
2years 9month 3weeks and 4days incountry. 69-71
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.
Does this mean they would kick us out of U.N? OH PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO IT! And let those maggots take the UN to the HAGUE also.
Nil Illegitimus Carborundum
"Waiting tables is what you know, making cheese is what I know-lets stick with what we know!"
-Jimmy the cheese man
What a coincidence.
as long as people come here they must realize legal or not if they commit a crime its quite likely they are going to get the same treatment as a us citizen....jail time or the death penalty... let their goverment stop their criminals from coming here ,we have enough of our own we dont need theirs.
for all those pointing out how other countries acceot the world court rulings and we look at them when they are convenient to us, remember this ,it is the nature of goverments to look at things positively that are in their interest and ignore things not in their interest. we did not give the world court athourity over us and our soldiers, i realize a lot of other countries have, thats their problem not ours.
at some point countries will begin to realize how precious national soveriegnity is as opposed to being ruled by a bunch of one size fits all beurocrats who have no knowledge nor care what the people of that country hold dear. i believe we have given up too much already and will vote for the person who says the usa's interests will be deided in the usa not gatt, the world court, the un or some other entity that doesnt believe i the same things i do.
what do you think?
Note what the lobster said about the Book of John and the prediction.
Touring in the South with a band in 1963, I saw big road signs urging, "Get us out of the UN!" I thought it was redneck reactionaryism. Now, in many ways, I "are" one! And the signs make a lot of sense.
Flat8,
The United States: A nation founded by slave-owners and expanded through the genocide of millions of American Indians and/or wars of aggression against Mexico.
You can slant any nation's character to make it look like the world's biggest ba$&ard because no nation on Earth is so clean that it doesn't have something completely reprehensible about its past.
Do you really think you can begin to compare the sins of this country with Mao's China, Stalin's Russia, and Hitler's Germany? Dang you sure is smart. We is the baddies.
I live in New York City. I work with many people who consider themselves "elite". I also have spent quite a bit of time among the "intellectual elite" while receiving my Masters in International Business and Finance. The one thing I can't stand is people who think they are so damn smart that right and wrong don't apply anymore. After all, such concepts are just held by those simplistic peons in "flyover country." Well I got news for you - this country is the last best place on Earth. Turn your back on her, and the ideas put forth by her "slave owning" Founding Fathers, and wait and see what you get.
I don't mean to get animated with you EMM, but I can't let you compare this country AT ITS FOUNDING with any of the above regimes.
Your leaders,those ones you'all brag about..are selling your National Sovereignty down the river...
If you know it all; you must have been listening.<br>WEAR EAR PROTECTION!
quote:Yeah, like your idol Klinton didn't already sell our national security to communist china; tell me another one!
When you turn your head into the wind,does that sound get any louder ?
As with an empty bottle,the sound changes as one fills it....
Nowhere,EVER,has ANY comment ever issued forth from my mouth praising Klinton for ANYTHING...save for scaring a whole he** of a lot of people into buying military style rifles...and I used to chuckle as I watched cases of ammo being toted out of gun shows,bought by folks shoving them into closets...
Intelligence is the ability to sift fact from bulls****..too bad it is such a scarce commidity in America,anymore...