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Docs for gun control-NOT! President of AMA will call me!

cpilericpileri Member Posts: 447 ✭✭✭
edited November 2001 in General Discussion
Hi Everyone.Earlier this year I wrote to the President of the American Medical Association and expressed my displeasure about his decision to ally with any and all gun control groups in the name of public safety.Long story short: he's going to call me early next week to discuss it!I would like some help from all you folks to be "armed" for this...1. the legal reference stating that the police have no legal obligation to protect you.2. the web site address(es) where gun control groups spell out their long-term plans for the eradication of all private gun ownership3. ANY other good info.PLEASE HURRY (just in case he calls Monday)He claims not to be attempting to coordinate some political goal. Well, lots of gun control groups are.This is our chance to get our message on a national level to a group of wealthy, mostly anti-2nd ammendment folks!I am on 24-hour-call today, so i need the pooled resources of this group to whip together info for Dr. Corlin's phone call.Thanks,Carl Pilericnvpileri@outdrs.net

Comments

  • RembrandtRembrandt Member Posts: 4,486 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    NRA has the best material for debating the issue, all facts....no emotion.We have three Doctors and four Nurses in our family....not one will join the AMA because of their stance on Firearms. You're welcome to relay that information to him....Non-Profit organizations should take the stance of avoiding controversial issues to prevent alienating possible membership. Most businesses (not all) have learned this the hard way thru profits and loses. It's not good bussiness to take positions that have such emotional ramifications. I doubt he has the control we would like to change things, their positions are determined by the membership at annual meeetings. It doesn't hurt to let them know they don't represent the views of entire Medical community. Their job is to heal the sick and work within the medical field....not to change the Constitution of the United States....to that end they should confine their efforts to the Medical profession.
  • Josey1Josey1 Member Posts: 9,598 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The AMA and Gun Control The following was sent to Susan Landers, public health correspondent for AMedNews.com, at 12:17 PM on August 20th, 2001 - susan_landers@ama-assn.org To: American Medical NewsRe: "Target Prevention" by Kathleen Phalen (8/20/01) (http://www.ama-assn.org/sci-pubs/amnews/pick_01/hlsa0820.htm) Unfortunately, the umbrella of "public health" cannot shield us from the damage associated with the entry of crusading physicians like Dr. Wintemute into the debate over gun control. As relative novices in the relevant fields of criminology, ballistics, history, and political science, physicians advocating increased gun control laws are practicing dangerously beyond their expertise. It matters little to most physicians to know that the NRA expectedly disagrees with Dr. Wintemute, but readers who want to know what serious criminologists think about the medicalization of gun control should at least read Guns and Public Health - Epidemic of Violence, or Pandemic of Propaganda?" from Tennessee Law Review (spring 1995:62:3) (http://www.2ndlawlib.com/journals/tennmed.html), wherein liberal criminologist Don Kates (et al) point out that there has been a striking lack of integrity in the "public health" literature on gun control, replete with distortion of data, flawed methodology, and when all else fails, complete fabrication of "facts." "...CDC and other health advocate sages build their case not only by suppressing facts, but by overt fraud, fabricating statistics, and falsifying references to support them."The factual errors and misleading statements made by Dr. Wintemute are so numerous that it would take an article longer than the original one in Aug. 20th's American Medical News (http://www.ama-assn.org/sci-pubs/amnews/pick_01/hlsa0820.htm) to list and rebut them all. Fortunately, many of them are addressed in Dr. Edgar Suter's "Guns in the Medical Literature - a Failure of Peer Review" which the Journal of the Medical Association of Georgia dared to publish in a time when politically correct medical journals are blatantly anti-gun in their editorial policies (http://rkba.org/research/suter/med-lit.html?suter / first_hit). Suter shares Kates' scathing contempt of the "results-oriented research" so characterizing of the medical literature on gun control, where the authors bend or invent "data" to fit their agenda. Although the editorial board of Guns and Ammo has so far had the integrity not to publish studies on the risks and benefits of antihyperlipidemic medications, several of the more prestigious medical journals have eagerly taken up the issue of gun control. Their bias is evident when generous editorial space lauds "crusading physicians" like Dr. Wintemute, sometimes with brief rebuttals from detractors, yet the equally demanding efforts of physicians like Dr. Wheeler of Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership (http://www.claremont.org/1_drgo.cfm) never seems to be featured or presented as positive, even though it could easily save far more lives. When public policy is set by a handful of well-meaning but hoplophobic zealots, and the debate is presented to a public with a world-view whose horizon is often defined by MTV, Miami Vice reruns, and Oprah, it is all the more important to move the debate beyond the media's shallow sound-byte of "NRA vs. Soccer Moms." Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws (http://www.dsgl.org/links.htm) has assembled articles on gun control from the criminological and public health literature, and in an effort to educate readers, some of the more salient ones follow, several of which address invalid assumptions made by proponents of additional gun laws. Since the "global perspective" was included in the article featuring Wintemute, readers should know that on an international level, David Kopel has published extensive research showing that it is only through hand-picking specific countries and time frames that any correlation between tough gun laws and low crime or suicide rates can be alleged (http://i2i.org/CrimJust.htm). If looked at honestly, suicide rates vary mostly by culture, and demographics, but gun laws exert no effect other than minor changes in the method used, without affecting overall deaths. Violent crime rates also vary culturally, when gun control laws are "toughened," crime rates nearly always increase, even if previously on the decline. As far as the "5,000 violent deaths" mentioned in the AMN article, which presumably are the ones causing recent hand wringing at United Nations, Dr. Wintemute would do well to check out at whose hands most of these deaths occurred. As R.J. Rummel points out, genocide kills 5 to 10 times more innocents than criminal use of firearms (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/welcome.html), and Jay Simkin documents that genocides have always been preceded by the seemingly innocuous step of "gun registration" (http://www.jpfo.org/L-laws.htm). In the past 100 years, countries with strict gun control have had an average of well over 4,000 citizens per day murdered by their own police and military, and for all this carnage, there is no offsetting beneficial effect documented for gun control laws - in fact researcher John Lott has pointed out some compelling evidence that gun control laws may actually increase domestic crime rates (http://www.tsra.com/LottBook.htm), and Kopel's St. Louis Law Review article, Peril or Protection? - The Risks and Benefits of Handgun Prohibition supports that conclusion (http://www.constitution.org/2ll/2ndschol/63perilo.htm). The risk/benefit analysis of gun ownership is not new; our nation's founders saw it as but one facet of the timeless and all-important balance of power between government and citizen. Many physicians, who hopefully spent more time studying physiology than history, dismiss the Second Amendment as either archaic, protecting only State's rights, or referring only to firearms with "legitimate sporting use." In order to understand the jurisprudence of the Second Amendment, Halbrook's George Mason Univ. Law Review (http://www.2ndlawlib.org/journals/haljuris.html), and the works of Stephen Halbrook (http://www.stephenhalbrook.com), including the U.S. vs. Emerson briefing (http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/ami-bri.html), are excellent and well referenced, and many other Second Amendment scholars have published on this topic in the journal literature (http://www.2ndlawlib.org/journals). With military-style "assault" rifles having been easily available in the U.S. for a hundred years, yet comprising a relatively minor fraction of criminally misused guns, and with their inherent tendency to wound, rather than kill (as would the average hunting rifle), there is no reason for a legitimate government to seek limitations on their ownership, or create a dangerous-in-the-wrong-hands registration "hit-list" of their owners. While the medical literature accepts the "if it saves but one life" motivation of misguided physicians like Dr. Wintemute, physicians who strongly oppose increased gun control are often asked why they won't compromise. My own motivation is a poster of the First Million Mom's March, which wouldn't have been possible without the "reasonable" step of merely registering guns (http://guntruths.com/Resource/Posters/1st_million_mom_march.htm). Sincerely, Andrew Johnstone, RPh/MDDoctors for Sensible Gun Laws http://www.DSGL.org http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?id=2618
    First Monday 2001:Physicians for Irresponsible Socialismby Ari ArmstrongThe Colorado Freedom ReportOctober 9, 2001"There's no such thing as a Second Amendment right."That's the opinion of Ted Pascoe, an organizer of this year's "First Monday" anti-gun (civil disarmament) event. "First Monday," described as "a project of Physicians for Social Responsibility and Alliance for Justice," was held October 1.
    A child psychologist, a medical doctor, and Tom Mauser advocate disarmament on First Monday, October 1.
    For being so concerned with the alleged "deception" of the "gun industry," Pascoe and crew weren't themselves overly concerned about straying from the truth. For instance, Pascoe repeated the lie that has been disproved time and again: "A gun in the home is far more likely to be used in a crime than in self-defense."The video Pascoe played was a little more specific: it claimed a gun is 22 times more likely to be fired in an assault or in a suicide than to be fired in self-defense.(1) Of course, in about 98% of instances of self-defense, the gun is not fired. Instead, the homeowner warns the criminal to leave, and the criminal almost always does so.In addition, the video counts suicides, which is wholly inappropriate as no link has been found between suicide rates and rates of gun ownership.(2) All the evidence gathered indicates those who want to commit suicide can and do easily switch to other methods. For instance, in Japan the suicide rate is much higher than it is in the United States, though in Japan drowning is a more popular method. One of the speakers noted that "success" rates are higher in America when a gun is used in suicide, but all this proves is that those who are intent on killing themselves (as opposed to crying out for help) turn to a method they know will do the job. Suicide is a great tragedy that should be addressed, but it should not be used as a propaganda tool by the anti-gun lobby.The video fails to address two other questions: what information are they using to determine defensive gun uses, and how many of the homicides were justifiable? Crime statistics are often based on arrest records, even if the defendant was found innocent or justified in court.The four speakers who added their comments to the video presentation said part of the problem revolves around domestic violence. Again, this is a terrible problem, but not one that justifies victim disarmament. How many shootings involving domestic violence were actually cases of self-defense? Women like Debra Collins used a gun to defend against violent men. (Of course, Debra didn't "fire" her gun so she doesn't count as far as Ted Pascoe is concerned.) And it's not as if a gun in the home turns men into violent lunatics. Unfortunately, some violent men choose to hurt or kill their wives and girlfriends with whatever tool is in their possession. The absence of a gun would not usually lessen the violence against women, especially because men are on average physically larger than women. The way to address the problem of domestic violence is to put violent men in prison, help women escape dangerous relationships, and let women defend themselves -- not disarm peaceful citizens.The vast majority of gun owners are safe, responsible, peaceable citizens. They make themselves and their families safer by having a defensive gun in the home. They also make non-gun owners safer by helping to deter criminals. The anti-gun lobby wrongly conflates normal gun owners with the small minorities of criminals and suicidal persons, and it wrongly ignores nearly every case of self-defense with a gun.If we look at general crime rates, we find guns are used defensively more often than they are used in the commission of a crime. Additional gun restriction laws are likely to increase crime by rendering guns less useful for self-defense. But a reasoned, balanced discussion of the facts was not the aim of First Monday. The "22 times" claim was just one thread in the dishonest propaganda presented by Pascoe's group.The Smoking Gun?One theme that ran through the anti-gun video was that guns should somehow be compared to cigarettes. One of the speakers explicitly said that, just as cigarettes are treated as a public health problem, so guns should be treated. The video showed numerous tobacco executives testifying that cigarettes aren't addictive. Therefore, so implied the video, the "gun industry" also lies about its products. Photos of Joe Camel and other cigarette icons were shown perhaps as frequently as were photos of guns.
    Ted Pascoe and Bob Glass hold a spirited discussion following the First Monday presentation.
    Of course, "guilt by association" is listed as a logical fallacy in textbooks. For example, David Kelley writes in The Art of Reasoning (200), "Another situation in which people often commit the fallacy of the undistributed middle is the attribution of guilt by association." Here, the association seems to be, "Cigarette companies market their products, and gun companies market their products, therefore gun companies must be as bad as cigarette companies!"The association seems pretty silly, yet Tom Mauser, who both appeared in the video and spoke at the Denver event, said, "You have to understand -- this is an industry." What's more, it's an "unregulated industry!" (Of course, Mauser never explained how requiring retailers to get a license from the federal government and letting the BATF rummage through retailers' records on demand doesn't count as "regulation.") The video claimed gun advertising is "only a little different" than cigarette advertising. Speaking live, Mauser said, "I really want to emphasize it -- we're talking about a gun industry -- they're selling weapons." Apparently if gun makers don't give away their products, their motives are automatically suspect.What evidence did the "First Monday" video, or any of the speakers, present that the "gun industry's" marketing is in any way deceptive? No such evidence was presented.(3) In his opening remarks, Pascoe said groups like the NRA "claim that guns make us safer." The NRA has referred to a gun as "a woman's best friend." Colt likened a gun to a fire extinguisher in that both are home safety devices. And Baretta referred to guns as "homeowners' insurance."To back up its claims that such marketing is false, all the First Monday group could muster was a warmed-over Kellerman study that is itself flagrantly deceptive. Pascoe and crew completely ignored the overwhelming evidence that guns are used defensively more often than they are used in the commission of a crime. They completely ignored John Lott's comprehensive survey of concealed carry laws which show such laws reduce violent crime. They completely ignored the many concrete cases of self-defense which have been reported (albeit usually via alternative media outlets). They completely ignored the cross-county analysis which indicates higher rates of gun ownership are associated with lower crime rates.The strategy of the First Monday group was obvious: demonize gun sellers and the NRA. In his opening remarks, Ted Pascoe said groups like the NRA are "reprehensible" and they spend "millions [of dollars] promoting their agenda." Of course, groups like Gun Owners of America and Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership are never mentioned. The 80 million American gun owners are never mentioned."This is about money," one speaker on the video claimed. It's obvious that gun manufacturers sell guns for money. It's a more strained argument but perhaps plausible to the target audience that the NRA is also motivated by money (even though the NRA is funded by its membership, not gun manufacturers). Apparently the argument is that any industry which attempts to make money is inherently corrupt and must be "regulated" by the state. So by demonizing the "gun industry," Pascoe and crew find it totally unnecessary to ever explain just what's wrong with the gun industry today.The Psychology of the Disarmament MovementA child psychologist who spoke at the event made the shocking and entirely original suggestion that teenagers desire safety, acceptance among their peers, and control over their lives. Surprise -- these are the very values offered by gun manufacturers! In addition, guns are "powerful symbols" to children! "Guns and kids should not be mixed," the psychologist concluded. Apparently this implies the gun industry should be more heavily regulated. QED.(Of course, cars are also "powerful symbols" for minors, and car manufacturers also tout the virtues of their cars in terms of safety, peer acceptance, and control. And cars are involved in a lot more teen deaths than guns are.)The video described a study about the NRA's "Eddie Eagle" program. This program tells children that if they find a gun they are supposed to "stop, don't touch, leave the area, and tell an adult." After a group of young children watched an Eddie Eagle video and listened to a speaker talk about the issue, the children were let loose in a playroom which contained deactivated guns along with toys. The children often went for the guns first. (5)I have little doubt that the Eddie Eagle program so administered would not be very effective, even considering the fact that the children were probably aware on some level that the environment of the test was an artificial one. However, the First Monday video completely ignores the fact that children whose parents teach them responsible gun safety grow up to be very safe around guns and tend to avoid crime. (Responsible, conscientious parents, whether they own guns or not, tend to raise responsible, conscientious children.)But why does the First Monday video even include a section about Eddie Eagle? One person remarks, "The NRA, I don't think they care if it works." A few moments later comes the quote, "This is about money." Aha! The NRA consists of sinister, wicked people who care more about money than the lives of children. Therefore, their positions on the issues are automatically false, and obviously guns need to be "regulated" more heavily than they are today.Disarmament "For the Children"After an introduction, the video began by informing us, "Guns kill over 30,000 people every year." Guns have "made America into a killing field." The video specified domestic violence, "school violence," and "kids shooting each other." The clear implication was that gun violence by and large is represented by such incidents as the shooting at the Baptist Church in Texas.That's pure deception.Yes, America has a high rate of homicide relative to Japan and many European nations. But the 30,000 figure must be presented with care.First, justifiable self-defense shootings, including shootings by police officers, shouldn't be counted. Next, guns don't cause domestic violence; they are sometimes used in instances of domestic violence. If all the guns were somehow magically whisked away, domestic violence would continue on more or less the same trajectory. Further, suicides should not be included because all the evidence shows those intent on killing themselves can and do easily switch to other methods.Finally, America has a high homicide rate because it has an incredibly high rate of gang violence. It ought to (but doesn't) give the anti-gun lobby pause to contemplate the statistics showing violent crime is much higher in large cities -- where gun laws are most severe -- whereas violent crime is much lower in rural areas where rates of gun ownership are high and gun laws are relatively lax.Pascoe took written questions from the audience, and to his credit he read one of mine: "Professor Jeffrey Miron of Boston University found drug prohibition increases the American homicide rate by 25% to 75%. If you want to reduce violence, aren't you looking in the wrong place?"One of the speakers, a doctor who says he discusses guns with his patients, responded to my question, saying there are "multiple factors" behind the crime rates. He said if you "take the guns away" there will be "no gang gun violence."Apparently, this is what passes for profundity among members of the anti-gun lobby. If people don't have guns, they won't commit GUN violence! Of course, if we reduce gun violence but leave over-all rates of violence unchanged, we haven't really accomplished much. The doctor also neglected to explain how he intends to take all the guns away from gang members, who are already experts at manufacturing and distributing illegal items. If simply passing a law would achieve the desired results, gangs wouldn't have any drugs, either. It's already illegal for any felon or drug dealer to possess a gun, but those laws don't seem to have deterred gang violence. Because prohibitions create violent black markets, Miron wonders if gun prohibitions might actually increase rates of violent crime in America.The upshot of this discussion is that disarmament has nothing to do with saving little kids from gun violence. Nearly all the "children" who are "shooting each other" are older teenage gang members fighting over turf or drugs. The reality is that accidental gun deaths have declining over the last century to record lows today. By focusing on young children and innocent suburbanites, the First Monday video presents a false picture of the victims of gun violence, and it uses "the children" as a propaganda tool to further its disarmament agenda. Obviously, it's a good thing to address problems of American violence. But the First Monday crowd isn't going to help us do that by lying about guns.Back-Door Gun BansThe anti-gun lobby knows it gets into trouble when it talks about out-right gun bans. Yet it is attempting to push gun bans through the back door.
    Bob Glass challenges Ted Pascoe to a public debate on the issue of civil arms. Pascoe declined.
    Pascoe said he wants to place guns under the regulatory power of the Treasury Department. Of course, by this he meant the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, created in part to enforce taxes on guns. (Federal gun laws are based on a tax scheme passed in 1934.) At an opportune pause in Pascoe's remarks, I threw out, "Would the BATF 'control' guns with the same efficiency it 'controlled' the situation at Waco?"Just what sort of additional powers does the anti-gun lobby want to grant to the BATF? A document from the Violence Policy Center fills in some of the details (Where'd They Get Their Guns? An Analysis of the Firearms Used in High-Profile Shootings, 1963 to 2001).Guns are virtually the last unregulated consumer product. Specific firearm design characteristics -- concealability, high capacity, and large caliber, among others -- make certain guns more prone to use in multiple shootings. Today, the gun industry is virtually free of any government oversight regarding the design, manufacture, and distribution of firearms. The result is the ready availability of assault weapons; ultra-concealable, high-capacity, high-caliber "pocket rockets;" and junk guns small and light enough for six-year-olds to carry and fire. The Firearms Safety and Consumer Protection Act (H.R. 671 and S. 330) would end the firearms industry's deadly exemption from health and safety regulations. The bill would empower the Department of the Treasury to set minimum safety and design standards, issue recalls, and ban specific firearms in extreme cases when no other remedy is sufficient. In other words, the BATF may ban any gun it deems to be too large or too small, and any semiautomatic gun with a capacity to be determined by the BATF. What sort of "design standards" might the BATF concoct? What guns might it "recall?" What methods will the BATF use to enforce its "recalls"?Note that VPC defines all or nearly all semiautos as "assault weapons." Of course, semiautos and small handguns are some of the most effective tools for self-defense, particularly for women whose hands are smaller on average.Note also that nobody argues that today's guns are inherently dangerous; that is, the guns are not unsafe to the responsible user. The explicit argument of the anti-gun lobby is that guns should be banned if they are used for committing crimes (regardless of whether they are effective for self-defense). But any type of gun may be used in a crime (just as any type of car may be used in a crime), so the logic of the position leads to comprehensive bans.Tom Mauser explicitly said he wants a "registration system" for all guns. The video claimed that "crime guns" consist of "assault [semiauto] rifles" and "powerful handguns," including small handguns. Those are the "favored guns of criminals." Of course, that category is so broad it includes most guns. The grouping is illegitimate; no specific type of gun is a "crime gun," and semiautomatic rifles are rarely used in crimes.Pascoe couches his position in terms of "common-sense product regulations," but skeptics will be concerned about giving the BATF with its sordid history the power to ban and recall guns at whim.The Experts Who Would Run Our LivesF.A. von Hayek warned us of "fatal conceit."Tom Mauser (speaking live at the event) said he wants to put "bullet indicators" on "semiautomatic revolvers." This was not a mere slip of the tongue, as he repeated the phrase several times. There is such a thing as a "semiautomatic revolver," though I've never seen one because they're exceedingly rare. (I can't imagine why anyone would want one.) But clearly, Mauser has no idea what he's talking about when it comes to firearms.Mauser also seems not to realize that "bullet indicators" are incredibly unsafe on pistols. There's only one safe way to see if there's a round in the chamber: that's to drop the magazine, pull the slide back and LOOK. Always treat a firearm as though it's loaded! Never point it in an unsafe direction! If Mauser would care to learn anything about firearms before he deigns to write gun laws for America's 80 million gun owners, he would realize "bullet indicators" are superfluous at best and downright dangerous at worst. No person is safe who relies on such a device.Mauser also wants more regulations concerning gun locks. Similar concerns apply. If young children or irresponsible persons are around, no gun lock is adequate. There's a reason why a popular joke is to ask children to take off child-safety caps. Those who live in a home without children or other irresponsible persons need no gun lock. Indeed, they are made less safe with such a device, because their gun is made less useful for self-defense against violent criminal attackers.Gun safety has been increasing for decades. These gimmicks listed by Mauser can only make guns less safe. But why is there this conflation of unintentional gun deaths and homicides? Why does the anti-gun lobby talk about things like "bullet indicators" in the same breath that it mentions empowering "Treasury" to "regulate" guns? In short, it's subterfuge. Things like "bullet indicators" sound great to the ignorant do-gooders of the world. Statements like, "We want to let the BATF ban and recall any gun at whim" go over less well.Guns and September 11In his opening remarks, Pascoe said there is a "pall over all of us since September 11." He said our goal is that "all violence is prevented." He referred to the fact that gun sales are up 30% in Colorado, following a national trend. He said that fear leads to the power of the NRA.The introduction to the video also referred to the "tragedy of September 11." The woman on the tape asked us to "use the pain and grief of September 11 to energize our efforts against all violence." A nice sentiment. But Mauser added (live) that it is "people living in fear" that causes them to purchase guns. "Increased sales are going to go on for a long time," he said.It is surely true that Americans are more fearful than they were before last month. However, it's a mistake to characterize the motive to buy a gun as some sort of irrational paranoia. It's simple preparedness. Similarly, it's healthy to stock up on groceries if you're expecting a hurricane.The anti-gun lobby continually attempts to malign the motives of gun owners. Gun owners don't care if children die, we are told. If people buy a gun, it's not because they are being prudent, it's because they are "living in fear."Mauser referred to gun owners as "Rambo wannabes." Mauser referred to the police officer who was "shot by two twins who liked guns." Apparently the essential point is not that these were evil men, but that they "liked guns." In the video, Mauser said he was "shocked by what I saw at the gunshow" he went to. He saw people buying guns! Mauser saw one "young man" looking at a gun, and he "couldn't help but think -- what did he have on his mind?" Apparently, Mauser can't conceive of a person wanting to buy a gun (especially a "high-capacity" gun) for self-defense or for target practice.Mauser said armed citizens would have "few opportunities to shoot down terrorists." True. People have few opportunities to use the fire extinguisher or cash in on their life-insurance policy, but those are nice things to have around. If a significant number of Americans carried a concealed handgun (say, 5%), chances are very good that any attempted terrorist act would meet with armed resistance.Referring to September 11, Mauser said, "We're being terrorized by guns." The doctor who spoke said America is suffering the equivalent of "4.5 terrorist attacks yearly" in terms of gun violence.Here again is the fallacy of guilt by association. "Some people are killed by terrorism. Some people are killed by guns. Therefore, guns are similar to terrorism." Of course, an armed citizenry is a demonstrated deterrent to terrorism, as the Israelis know well. The First Monday speakers didn't care to address the issue of whether they would have armed a passenger or pilot on the hijacked flights, if it had been in their power to do so.There is no doubt but that Tom Mauser suffered a horrible tragedy and he deserves our sympathy. However, his political advocacy is simply off the mark. Mauser was an anti-gun activist before Columbine for all the wrong reasons, and he continues on that same path. Some comments he made at the meeting indicate the problems with his perspective.Mauser told us that his son "crouched under a table in the library" of Columbine. "I heard the 911 tape" after the fact, he told us. He listened as students were murdered "one by one by one. I heard the gunshot that killed my son." We all feel sorrow and outrage about this horrific crime, and Mauser's account saddened us all. He has truly gone through what no father should ever have to suffer.As I listened to his words, the words of an Israeli rang in my ears: in Israel, the children are taught to either escape or attack en masse. Tom Mauser was able to hear the entire 911 tape of his child being murdered. What good did that 911 tape do? It brings a whole new meaning to the phrase, "Dial 911 and die." Mauser heard the children being murdered "one by one by one," and during that time nobody did anything to stop it!Many Americans have learned to be always passive, to rely on the proper authorities for protection. That strategy just doesn't work. Self-defense is a moral imperative. Columbine could have been prevented at so many steps along the way it makes a person sick. The police were informed about death threats before the fact! At the time of violence, though, nothing but self-defense is effective. And armed self-defense is the best recourse. The only gun laws proven to reduce mass murders and crime generally are liberalized concealed carry laws.International ComparisonsPascoe claimed the United States suffers higher rates of violence than other countries because of our lax gun laws and high gun ownership rates. "To say there's not a connection is ludicrous," he said.There's not a connection. What's ludicrous is that Pascoe doesn't bother to back up any of his claims with serious evidence.As David Friedman summarizes in the June 2001 Liberty Magazine,The high U.S. murder rate is frequently attributed to the high rate of gun ownership in the United States, relative to most comparable nations. One problem with that explanation is that while it is true that there is a significant correlation in international comparisons between gun ownership and murder rates, that correlation is driven by a single observation -- the United States. Regressions with the United States omitted show much weaker results, despite the existence of other countries with relatively high gun ownership rates -- and without anomalously high murder rates. A second problem is that the behavior of murder rates over time, both in the United States and elsewhere, does not seem to be closely linked to gun ownership or legal restrictions thereof. That suggests that U.S. murder rates are due to something other than gun ownership, and that the gun ownership rate is either unrelated to the murder rate or a consequence of it. Friedman agrees with Miron that drug prohibition increases the homicide rate in the United States.Legal AccountabilityOne of the speakers suggested we get serious about prosecuting straw purchasers. (Could an NRA membership be next?) While current laws make a mess of it, in principle it should be illegal to knowingly purchase a gun for somebody who's going to use the gun to commit a crime. Doing so is akin to driving the get-away car. If you know somebody is planning to commit a crime, you have a responsibility to intervene and notify the authorities and/or the intended victim. People who buy guns knowing they will be used for criminal purposes may be held criminally or civilly accountable. This does not justify any sort of registration or tracking scheme.Mauser lamented the laws which forbid lawsuits against gun manufacturers "for anything other than direct negligence." In other words, if somebody commits a crime with a gun (or car), you can't sue the gun (or car) manufacturer. That's a good thing. What's more, while libertarians are all for holding negligent manufacturers civilly accountable, we certainly disapprove of government-initiated law suits.Mauser also stumbled into the issue of prior restraint. At one point, he lamented the legal shortcoming that if "they're not in trouble with the law [we] let them go." He was talking about people with "bad" guns. I found Mauser's remarks disconcerting, to say the least. However, Mauser soon backed off from his statement. He admitted we "can't arrest them just because of that [possessing certain guns]." It's a relief to hear that Mauser at least pays lip service to the presumption of innocence. Still, I think Mauser's comments reflects a certain tension in his thinking. On one hand, he wants to legally prohibit an entire range of peaceful activity; on the other hand, he senses the problem of sending (armed) enforcers out to capture people who haven't done anything wrong.Incidentally, speaking of prior restraint, the video asked, "Who could argue against" the Brady registration bill? The video suggested the NRA argued against it, even though gun owners know too well the NRA actually helped draft the Brady law and campaigned for its passage. Even anti-gun researchers admit in JAMA that Brady has not reduced homicides. And John Lott has found that Brady increases rape. The Brady law makes it harder for law-abiding citizens to purchase a gun for self-defense -- sometimes by outright denying a purchase illegitimately -- while it does nothing to deter criminals. And Brady has already registered thousands upon thousands of peaceable gun owners with the BATF.A Disarmament Activist Turns ViolentOn at least two occasions in Colorado, an anti-gun activist has attacked a civil arms activist. On the night of First Monday, a disarmament activist tried to pick a fight with a TRT member.
    This disarmament activist tried to pick a fight with a member of the TRT.
    Inside the building the guy told Bob Glass that Glass was "in his way." Glass bowed and extended his arm signaling the guy to proceed. The guy told the TRT members present that they should leave because "nobody cares about you people." He also said, "I can make your lives miserable." When asked if he worked for the IRS or some other government agency, he declined to comment further.Outside the building, the guy exchanged verbal barbs with a couple TRT members. The guy left the immediate area for a few minutes, then returned and said, "I told you those were fighting words." He held his keys between his fingers in a tight fist.At that point, Bob Glass said to the man, "Let it go. It's not worth it." Fortunately, other members of Pascoe's party were able to drag the guy away before he could physically attack anybody. Positive DiscussionFortunately, everybody else was much more civil. After the formal presentation, Glass stood up and formally challenged Pascoe to a public debate. Pascoe declined. I held upbeat, positive conversations with several members of the audience. Most people in the room were well-intentioned, even though many gun foes hadn't looked deeply into the issue. I learned something interesting about Ted Pascoe -- he had traveled to Africa in the Peace Corps and was hosting a teacher he met there. The teacher was friendly and engaging. I had a really fun time, actually. Yes, these issues are of grave importance. And I believe that if civil arms advocates continue to approach the issue with passion and intellectual honesty, others will see that disarmament is a counter-productive policy.
    Notes(1) Bruce Tiemann, who reviewed this article, adds, "This is the Kellerman study, which originally claimed 43 times. Even Kellerman retracted the 43-to-1 claim, and replaced it with 22. Nevertheless, what you quote misrepresents the statistic, which is accurately, 'a gun in the home is 22 times more likely to KILL friend or family than KILL an unknown intruder.'" This is an important distinction. Even when a gun is fired in self-defense, the criminal rarely dies. So the sub-set of all defensive gun uses in which the gun is fired is small, and the number of times the criminal is killed is even smaller. In other words, Kellerman ignores virtually all instances of defensive gun uses.(2) Tiemann adds, "Actually, a 'study' of equal honesty to Kellerman's is that suicide is 5 times more likely among new buyers of handguns... of course this study did not attempt to correct for those people who specifically bought a gun for this purpose.(3) Tiemann adds, "It is important to mention here that the tobacco industry lied about the health effects and addictiveness of tobacco products, not only to Americans but before Congress, under oath. No similar deceit has been perpetrated by the gun industry. If lying [is] bad and actionable, the First Monday people need to be hauled into court."(4) Tiemann relates, "It is important to note that the NRA receives *100%* of its money from membership fees and donations. The NRA receives ZERO [dollars] from 'the gun industry' -- all corporate contributions go to the National Shooting Sports Association, a sporting-only and non-legislative [organization] legally distinct from the NRA."(5) Tiemann adds, "I don't know about this particular case, but there are similar ones where kids were shown Eddie Eagle and then told to go into a room with 'toys' and that they should 'play with the toys.' Lo and behold, real guns were mixed in with the toys, and the children played with them. In other words, these children were lied to about the contents of the room." http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?id=2638
    AMA president admits bias on gun researchby Dr. Michael S. BrownDr. Richard Corlin, the new president of the American Medical Association, started his term with a bang Tuesday night. His inaugural address was devoted entirely to the issue of gun violence. Unfortunately, he simply repeated many of the myths and misconceptions that have burdened the gun control movement.The only area in which he seemed to offer a new initiative was in calling for more research on the causes of gun violence. Although honest study is sorely needed, Dr. Corlin ignores the sordid history of gun research by the medical community.During the early 1990's the anti-gun lobby developed the strategy of fighting gun violence as if it were an epidemic. Guns were likened to viruses that must be eliminated. Proponents of this theory were so dedicated and dogmatic that they turned their backs on ethical research practices and even the scientific method.They knew in their hearts that guns were an unmitigated evil force in society and their studies were designed to prove this in a way that society could not ignore. Even if the resulting data failed to support the pre-planned conclusion, it was tortured into submission anyway and distilled into a memorable sound bite.Most people remember the one that says you are 43 times more likely to be killed by a gun in your home than to kill an intruder. Not only is that factoid false, due to deliberately induced sampling error, but even if true it is useless. The basic thesis ignores the fact that guns are frequently used to ward off criminal attack without a shot being fired. Sometimes criminal intruders are shot at, but not hit. Sometimes they are hit, but not killed. This study has become the classic example of results-oriented research, or more simply, junk science.Read any study that claims to examine guns as a public health menace and you will find a similar skewed logic, since researchers who subscribe to that theory have already made up their minds that guns are evil and do not wish to be bothered by inconvenient facts.The leading instigator of these results-oriented, anti-gun studies is Dr. Arthur Kellerman. History will probably rank him, and now Dr. Corlin, in the same category as Trofim Lysenko, an infamous Soviet geneticist who brought politics into agricultural genetics, producing decades of crop failures and suffering for his people.Some of this junk science was financed with taxpayer dollars through the Centers for Disease Control. When gun rights supporters objected Congress rightly cut off funding. The gun haters have been crying about it ever since and Dr. Corlin, who misses the point entirely, complained about it again in his speech.The fact that Dr. Corlin is announcing his strong bias in advance destroys any hope for the honest and ethical study of this issue. He even offers us the emotional basis for his deeply held feelings. He states that a woman who worked in his office was killed in what seems to be a gang-related drive-by shooting in Los Angeles.He does not say why he prefers to investigate gun violence rather than gang violence, but there is a standard explanation for this kind of tunnel vision. It is simply much easier to blame the weapon instead of the complex human behavior and societal influences that are the real causes of violence.Most people who choose this philosophical path have little or no experience with the responsible civilian ownership of guns. Not surprisingly, Dr. Corlin says that he grew up in Newark where, he recalls, there were no guns. Thus it must be terribly difficult for him to understand why people might want to own them.This mirrors, in reverse, the experience of many middle aged and older gun owners. They often relate how they grew up in areas where everyone had guns and even brought them to school, yet shootings of any kind were unheard of.Americans should prepare for another junk science plague. It appears that the resources of the AMA are going to be devoted to a new campaign of Lysenkoism in the service of the anti-gun lobby.Perhaps more AMA members will leave the increasingly politicized organization, but Dr. Corlin explains that the show must go on. He is dealing from a position of strength, since the AMA is no longer dependent on dues from its declining membership. Most of their funding comes from cozy outside deals such as producing expensive diagnosis code books which physicians are forced to buy if they wish to bill for their services under the current government-mandated standards.Lysenko would be proud. He twisted science to promote a political agenda, and Dr. Corlin is preparing to follow in his footsteps.Dr. Michael S. Brown is an optometrist and board member of Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws. His email is: rkba2000@yahoo.com. His archives on the web can be found at http://www.KeepAndBearArms.com/Brown. http://www.keepandbeararms.com/information/XcIBViewItem.asp?id=2136
    THE STRANGE ROLE OF DOCTORS IN THE GUN DEBATEby Dr. Michael S. Brown If you were going to choose a team of experts to help resolve the question of gun rights versus gun control, who would you pick?Your first choice should be a good criminologist; then perhaps a police officer with extensive street experience. To analyze the cost of gun violence and the cost of gun control, you would choose an economist. An expert on the causes of suicide would be very helpful as would a skilled statistician to sort through the various studies.You would probably not choose a doctor, yet a small number of doctors have assumed a large role in the anti-gun lobby. Various trauma surgeons, in particular, have asserted that their experience in treating gunshot wounds makes them experts on gun control legislation. This is patently absurd. You wouldn't ask advice on traffic laws from someone who repairs damaged cars. There are experts who are trained to conduct scientific studies and recommend new traffic laws when needed.Most doctors are predisposed to anti-gun thinking by their urban liberal upbringing. Treating numerous gunshot victims may exaggerate this existing mindset. Most Americans will never see a gunshot wound, but some trauma surgeons see so many that they begin to view the world as overwhelmed with gun violence. This skewed world view can result in a very human emotional urge to "do something" about the problem of gun violence. This same motive is commonly found in family members of gun violence victims; since the real causes of human violence are so complex, they must lash out at something simple like the type of weapon used. Doctors who treat these victims may be responding in much the same way.Medical doctors who support political movements use their credibility as medical professionals to lend weight to a particular cause. This credibility comes from their training which teaches doctors to use the scientific method to diagnose and treat medical conditions. When physicians support a political cause, most people would assume that they are applying the same standards.Unfortunately for these social activist doctors, all reputable research shows that gun control laws simply don't work. To support the anti-gun lobby, they must turn their backs on their scientific training and give in to their personal bias.This awkward situation led some doctors to carry out public health studies designed to produce anti-gun statistics. This is known as "results-oriented research" or "junk science".These studies are distinguished by certain characteristics. The anti-gun researchers frequently choose small populations or geographic areas that they believe will produce the desired outcome. They ignore the fact that guns are often used to deter crime without shots being fired and they typically misrepresent the conclusions of earlier studies on which they are basing their own research. Their statistical analysis is always questionable and they sometimes refuse to make their raw data public to avoid close scrutiny. Perhaps the most striking characteristic is the way that the results are always turned into an anti-gun sound bite with an outlandish number representing the harm done by firearms.The most famous of these studies is the one that declared firearms to be 43 times more likely to kill someone in the home than to kill an intruder. Like all of the anti-gun studies, this one has been dissected by numerous people who delight in pointing out the way in which the data were tortured to produce the desired results. A classic discussion of these flawed studies is "Guns in the Medical Literature - a Failure of Peer Review" by Edgar A. Suter, MD.This wave of criticism may be partly responsible for some improvement in the quality of published articles. The Journal of the American Medical Association, for example, recently published a study by Ludwig and Cook which found that the much touted Brady Act had no effect on the national homicide rate.Perhaps this marks a return to intellectual honesty that will convince anti-gun doctors to take a more logical look at the problem of gun violence. They should at least admit to the public and to their fellow doctors that their opinions on gun legislation have nothing to do with their medical credentials.
    Dr. Michael S. Brown is a board member of Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws, on the web at: http://www.KeepAndBearArms.com/dsgl. Dr. Brown's archive on our site is located here: http://www.KeepAndBearArms.com/Brown. References:Evaluating the "43 Times" Fallacy - David K. Felbeck http://keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=423 Guns in the Medical Literature - A Failure of Peer Review - Edgar A. Suter, MD http://rkba.org/research/suter/med-lit.html?suter#first_hit How the CDC succumbed to the "Gun Epidemic" - Kates, Shaffer, Waters Reason Magazine http://www.reason.com/9704/fe.cdc.html For Your Own Good - The AMA's Campaign Against Guns - Timothy Wheeler, MD http://www.claremont.org/wheeler4.cfm
  • Josey1Josey1 Member Posts: 9,598 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    AMA Joins Gun Grabbers NewsMax.comTuesday, May 1, 2001 Spurred on by their president-elect, the American Medical Association is getting ready to take on the defenders of the Second Amendment. Some AMA members are vowing a last-ditch fight to stop what foes say is just thinly disguised anti-gun propaganda.According to Chicago Business, under its president-elect, Richard F. Corlin, the AMA is primed to call for increased funding to study data on firearms injuries at its June 20 annual meeting - a ploy, Second Amendment advocates warn, that puts the national medical association squarely on the side of anti-gun radicals.Gun control lobbyists have long demanded expanded research into the facts surrounding firearms injuries such as the types of guns involved, what led up to the incidents and the kinds of wounds suffered by the victims - information certain to be used in anti-gun propaganda."We don't have that kind of information about gun injuries. It makes it difficult to develop policies," Robert Seltzer, executive director of New York-based Doctors Against Handgun Injury, a consortium of medical groups, told Chicago Business. "If we knew more about the relationship between the victim and the suspect, we could develop policing strategies."Because such data is easily manipulated the National Rifle Association and other Second Amendment defenders such as Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws and Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership warn that the research could be twisted to serve the purposes of the anti-gun lobby.Said Dr. Michael Brown, a Vancouver, Wash., optometrist and a member of Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws: "There is so much potential for misusing the data for political purposes. We have very little faith they would deal with it honestly." Brown told Chicago Business that he viewed the issue as a city vs. country fight. "The doctors that go into medical politics like this are almost always the urban liberal-type folks.""They are not scientists; these are social planners," said John A. Bennett, an AMA member and a member of Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws, referring to the doctors who undertake research on firearms issues. Speaking to Chicago Business, Bennett, a family-practice physician in Sequim, Wash., said that while he was skeptical of Corlin's objectivity, he would reserve judgment. "I am free to quit," he said.Corlin, who will take over as AMA president at the June meeting, insists he is not expanding AMA policy or advocating gun control."We are doing what we have always done, and that is advocate on a variety of issues [that are part of] our mission statement, which is the advancement of science and medicine and the betterment of public health. "We did it with polio. We did it with tobacco. We did it with AIDS awareness and health insurance, and any other issue that we think is a public health epidemic," Corlin said.He failed to specify when firearms injuries suddenly became epidemic.The planned call for more research funding will not be universally welcomed at the annual meeting, however. There have been objections, notes Chicago Business. "The dissension reportedly extends into the AMA's boardroom, where, one source says, 'there wasn't unanimity.'"Explained Susan Adelman, a Southfield, Mich., pediatric surgeon and AMA trustee: "There was worry that the position would be misinterpreted. Dr. Corlin is trying to walk a very careful line. He is trying to take a mature position within AMA policy, to gather information that allows players to formulate proposals."Read more on this subject in related Hot Topics:Guns / Gun ControlHealth Issues http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/4/30/223849.shtml
    AMA Campaign Takes on NRA 5/10/01 e-mailthis! printthis! The American Medical Association (AMA) is calling for big increases in funding for research on firearm injuries, Crane's Chicago Business reported April 30.The campaign is expected to anger the National Rifle Association (NRA), which has long opposed such funding. Recently, the NRA successfully lobbied Congress to block funds for similar research planned by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).AMA President-elect Richard F. Corlin, the prime mover of the organization's plan, is ready for the opposition from the NRA, as well as an internal fight from the group Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws, which backed the NRA in defeating the CDC's gun-violence research effort.Doctors who undertake research on firearms issues."are not scientists; these are social planners," contends John A. Bennett, an AMA member and a member of Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws. But Corlin countered, "We are doing what we have always done, and that is advocate on a variety of issues that are part of our mission statement, which is the advancement of science and medicine and the betterment of public health. We did it with polio. We did it with tobacco. We did it with AIDS awareness and health insurance, and any other issue that we think is a public-health epidemic."Although Corlin did not provide specifics on the AMA campaign, the overall initiative is expected to encourage the collection of data on the number and type of gun-related injuries nationwide. The information would provide policymakers with a basis for decision-making. Rate of Multiple-Victim Homicides on Rise School Crime Declines Slightly Domestic-Homicides Decline Tied to Gun Availability U.S. Murder Rate at 35-Year Low Violence and Discipline Problems in the U.S. Public Schools: 1996-97 Gun Violence: The Real Costs Before 1864, guns were used in 17 percent of homicides. By the end of the century, that number had risen to 47 percent. (Journal of American History) more Doctors Against Handgun Injury International Action Network on Small Arms (IANSA) http://www.jointogether.org/gv/wire/news/reader.jtml?Object_ID=267499
  • OrphanedcowboyOrphanedcowboy Member Posts: 351 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    No matter how you slice it, I Like Josey1, he's informed, Keep up the good Work!
    Orphanedcowboy@msn.com
  • stanmanstanman Member Posts: 3,052
    edited November -1
    Nothin' much left for me to say Josey...... GREAT JOB!!
  • JudgeColtJudgeColt Member Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Great information! I and several other lawyers I know have dropped our membership in the American Bar Association for the same reason.
  • ironsitesironsites Member Posts: 97 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Josey just about covered it. If guns are taken from the law abiding citizens, the ER's will be full of the helpless law abiders instead of the bad guy's. I wonder which, these Dr.'s would rather see more of?
  • cpilericpileri Member Posts: 447 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'd rather see none, that's why I am asking for your help. I do appreciate the comments, though.But hard facts are what i need and time is a wastin'.Carl
  • IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    cpileri: Did you receive the emails I sent you with the material I was able to obtain?
  • BoomerangBoomerang Member Posts: 4,513
    edited November -1
    Carl - Something I have always wanted to have is a copy of the 21,000, or so, laws that govern the ownership and manufacture of guns. How many times have we all heard this statement of "fact" from the NRA. Think about it, if we had this packet of laws available to us, then this in itself should be all the data one would need to convince a misguided, reasonably thinking individual that believes that more gun laws are needed. Noticed that I used the phrase "reasonably thinking individual". These are the people we need to target and bring over to our side. The Rosie-O's of the world will never be convinced so I care not to waste my time. I truly wish the NRA would make this information available to us so we can more easily defend our positions. It is really hard when someone says "Show me these laws", and all I can respond is with a dumb look and say "Well that is what the NRA says". Man that is weak. Since the NRA elects to not publish this data on their website it makes one wander if there truly are as many laws as they cite or just an exaggeration of the facts.Good luck in your endeavor to convince this individual.Boomer
    Protect our Constitutional Rights. [This message has been edited by Boomerang (edited 11-05-2001).]
  • cpilericpileri Member Posts: 447 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If I find a reference to these 20K laws, i will post it.If not, i am sure a law clerk will do it for a fee. Not willing to pay $$ yet, myself.Carl
  • BoomerangBoomerang Member Posts: 4,513
    edited November -1
    My point exactly Carl. Why has the NRA not provided this to us? What do our dues go for if not for this?Boomer
    Protect our Constitutional Rights.
  • M.OpaliskiM.Opaliski Member Posts: 244 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Good point Boomer, I copied the following from GunLaws.com
    How many gun laws are there? "How many gun laws do we have," is a subtly biased question, of the type, "are you still beating your wife?". It implies that there is a "correct" or "best" number of gun laws, and asks, also implicitly, are there enough gun laws. This leads to a no-win debate on whether there are enough or not.Everything criminal about guns is already illegal.There are more laws than a person can reasonably be expected to remember, and they are growing annually.There are countless legal traps for the unwary. Even for the wary.Because criminal activity is already outlawed, new laws tend to affect only honest individuals and not criminals, and so of course people object to them.The idea of "gun control law" has come to mean "infringement law," a rule that incrementally disarms a civilian, and has little or no bearing on crime control, which is supposed to be the goal. Infringement laws are illegal, and it's right for decent people to object to them and to the people who promote them.If the goal of the laws is to outlaw crime, then there are enough, because all these luridly promoted acts of infamy involve many laws being violently broken (look at the long list we published for Columbine, at gunlaws.com). Ask if there is sufficient "crime" control, and everyone seems to agree there is not.So, how many already?Counted how? The Brady law, for example, is one law passed by Congress, but more than 3,000 words long (some laws are only a few words; the 1999 budget bill -- one law passed by Congress -- was 400,000 words, and included entire new bodies of law). Brady ended up as several different numbered statutes on the books, and amendments to others. How many laws is that?It originally required a waiting period, now it's a national background check, and it even regulates airline baggage. Would you call that three "laws"? Attempts to count the various things controlled by a law are fruitless -- the law is designed to expand and encompass any case brought before it.You still want numbers? The book that describes the Texas gun laws is nearly 300 pages long. The unabridged federal guide is almost 400.Most (though not all) of the language in an enacted "law" ends up as numbered and named "sections" or "articles." By Bloomfield Press' count, Texas has 228 numbered gun laws. Federally, there were 231 numbered statutes in February, 1996, but federal gun law has grown by 14,715 words, a full 20%, since then. No count of newly assigned section numbers has been made -- no one knows precisely how many there are.Which brings us to the most metrical way of figuring how many laws there are. Texans are under 42,042 words of state gun law, and 88,584 words of federal gun law -- a total of more than 130,000 words of law. An average novel is around 40,000 words.So now you have a number. In Texas, you have to follow 130,000 words of law to stay legal, and on the flip side, we have this huge body of rules to use against bad people. What does that do for you? How do you interpret it against the obvious bias -- is that enough words? Let's go for 200,000, you think? Maybe 500,000, hey, go for the gold, a million. That ought to be enough to outlaw crime.With such an overwhelming glut of gun law on the books, maybe we should (perish the thought!), try repealing some and concentrating on those that are more effective? Or even look at the endemic roots of the problem -- why do people in modern society become vicious predatory animals, and how should we handle them and protect ourselves?The how-many-gun-laws question is specious and deceitful. Guess what. Crime is already outlawed.Examine every new law proposed and ask:1 - does it address a crime with a victim that is not already covered by law (exceedingly rare),2 - On a personal level -- will it affect you in some way, or make your actions criminal if you do not follow it (frighteningly common), and3 - is it a smart way to expend limited police and court resources, or would those precious tax dollars be best used elsewhere.Don't forget, criminals and an armed public are not the same thing.
    Support your RKBA ... MatthewNRA Life MemberTalk Radio Junkie opaliski@hotmail.com TheFirearmsEnthusiast
  • Andrew AdamsAndrew Adams Member Posts: 227 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Dr,Here is a review article that includes the citation of the precedent about police having no duty to protect. It covers Warren v. District of Columbia.Police Have No Duty To Protect Individualsby Peter KaslerSelf-Reliance For Self-Defense -- Police Protection Isn't Enough!All our lives, especially during our younger years, we hear that the police are there to protect us. From the very first kindergarten- class visit of "Officer Friendly" to the very last time we saw a police car - most of which have "To Protect and Serve" emblazoned on their doors - we're encouraged to give ourselves over to police protection. But it hasn't always been that way. Before the mid-1800s, American and British citizens - even in large cities - were expected to protect themselves and each other. Indeed, they were legally required to pursue and attempt to apprehend criminals. The notion of a police force in those days was abhorrent in England and America, where liberals viewed it as a form of the dreaded "standing army." England's first police force, in London, was not instituted until 1827. The first such forces in America followed in New York, Boston, and Philadelphia during the period between 1835 and 1845. They were established only to augment citizen self-protection. It was never intended that they act affirmatively, prior to or during criminal activity or violence against individual citizens. Their duty was to protect society as a whole by deterrence; i.e., by systematically patrolling, detecting and apprehending criminals after the occurrence of crimes. There was no thought of police displacing the citizens' right of self-protection. Nor could they, even if it were intended. Professor Don B. Kates, Jr., eminent civil rights lawyer and criminologist, states: Even if all 500,000 American police officers were assigned to patrol, they could not protect 240 million citizens from upwards of 10 million criminals who enjoy the luxury of deciding when and where to strike. But we have nothing like 500,000 patrol officers; to determine how many police are actually available for any one shift, we must divide the 500,000 by four (three shifts per day, plus officers who have days off, are on sick leave, etc.). The resulting number must be cut in half to account for officers assigned to investigations, juvenile, records, laboratory, traffic, etc., rather than patrol. [1] Such facts are underscored by the practical reality of today's society. Police and Sheriff's departments are feeling the financial exigencies of our times, and that translates directly to a reduction of services, e.g., even less protection. For example, one moderate day recently (September 23, 1991) the San Francisco Police Department "dropped" [2] 157 calls to its 911 facility, and about 1,000 calls to its general telephone number (415-553-0123). An SFPD dispatcher said that 150 dropped 911 calls, and 1,000 dropped general number calls, are about average on any given day. [3] It is, therefore, a fact of law and of practical necessity that individuals are responsible for their own personal safety, and that of their loved ones. Police protection must be recognized for what it is: only an auxiliary general deterrent. Because the police have no general duty to protect individuals, judicial remedies are not available for their failure to protect. In other words, if someone is injured because they expected but did not receive police protection, they cannot recover damages by suing (except in very special cases, explained below). Despite a long history of such failed attempts, however, many, people persist in believing the police are obligated to protect them, attempt to recover when no protection was forthcoming, and are emotionally demoralized when the recovery fails. Legal annals abound with such cases. Warren v. District of Columbia is one of the leading cases of this type. Two women were upstairs in a townhouse when they heard their roommate, a third woman, being attacked downstairs by intruders. They phoned the police several times and were assured that officers were on the way. After about 30 minutes, when their roommate's screams had stopped, they assumed the police had finally arrived. When the two women went downstairs they saw that in fact the police never came, but the intruders were still there. As the Warren court graphically states in the opinion: "For the next fourteen hours the women were held captive, raped, robbed, beaten, forced to commit sexual acts upon each other, and made to submit to the sexual demands of their attackers." The three women sued the District of Columbia for failing to protect them, but D.C.'s highest court exonerated the District and its police, saying that it is a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen." [4] There are many similar cases with results to the same effect. [5] In the Warren case the injured parties sued the District of Columbia under its own laws for failing to protect them. Most often such cases are brought in state (or, in the case of Warren, D.C.) courts for violation of state statutes, because federal law pertaining to these matters is even more onerous. But when someone does sue under federal law, it is nearly always for violation of 42 U.S.C. 1983 (often inaccurately referred to as "the civil rights act"). Section 1983 claims are brought against government officials for allegedly violating the injured parties' federal statutory or Constitutional rights. The seminal case establishing the general rule that police have no duty under federal law to protect citizens is DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services. [6] Frequently these cases are based on an alleged "special relationship" between the injured party and the police. In DeShaney the injured party was a boy who was beaten and permanently injured by his father. He claimed a special relationship existed because local officials knew he was being abused, indeed they had "specifically proclaimed by word and deed [their] intention to protect him against that danger," [7] but failed to remove him from his father's custody. The Court in DeShaney held that no duty arose because of a "special relationship," concluding that Constitutional duties of care and protection only exist as to certain individuals, such as incarcerated prisoners, involuntarily committed mental patients and others restrained against their will and therefore unable to protect themselves. "The affirmative duty to protect arises not from the State's knowledge of the individual's predicament or from its expressions of intent to help him, but from the limitation which it has imposed on his freedom to act on his own behalf." [8] About a year later, the United States Court of Appeals interpreted DeShaney in the California case of Balistreri v. Pacifica Police Department. [9] Ms. Balistreri, beaten and harassed by her estranged husband, alleged a "special relationship" existed between her and the Pacifica Police Department, to wit, they were duty-bound to protect her because there was a restraining order against her husband. The Court of Appeals, however, concluded that DeShaney limited the circumstances that would give rise to a "special relationship" to instances of custody. Because no such custody existed in Balistreri, the Pacifica Police had no duty to protect her, so when they failed to do so and she was injured they were not liable. A citizen injured because the police failed to protect her can only sue the State or local government in federal court if one of their officials violated a federal statutory or Constitutional right, and can only win such a suit if a "special relationship" can be shown to have existed, which DeShaney and its progeny make it very difficult to do. Moreover, Zinermon v. Burch [10] very likely precludes Section 1983 liability for police agencies in these types of cases if there is a potential remedy via a State tort action. Many states, however, have specifically precluded such claims, barring lawsuits against State or local officials for failure to protect, by enacting statutes such as California's Government Code, Sections 821, 845, and 846 which state, in part: "Neither a public entity or a public employee [may be sued] for failure to provide adequate police protection or service, failure to prevent the commission of crimes and failure to apprehend criminals." It is painfully clear that the police cannot be relied upon to protect us. Thus far we've seen that they have no duty to do so. And we've also seen that even if they did have a duty to protect us, practically- speaking they could not fulfill it with sufficient certainty that we would want to bet our lives on it. Now it's time to take off the gloves, so to speak, and get down to reality. So the police aren't duty-bound to protect us, and they can't be expected to protect us even if they want to. Does that mean that they won't protect us if they have the opportunity? One of the leading cases on this point dates way back into the 1950s. [11] A certain Ms. Riss was being harassed by a former boyfriend, in a familiar pattern of increasingly violent threats. She went to the police for help many times, but was always rebuffed. Desperate because she could not get police protection, she applied for a gun permit, but was refused that as well. On the eve of her engagement party she and her mother went to the police one last time pleading for protection against what they were certain was a serious and dangerous threat. And one last time the police refused. As she was leaving the party, her former boyfriend threw acid in her face, blinding and permanently disfiguring her. Her case against the City of New York for failing to protect her was, not surprisingly, unsuccessful. The lone dissenting justice of New York's high court wrote in his opinion: "What makes the City's position [denying any obligation to protect the woman] particularly difficult to understand is that, in conformity to the dictates of the law [she] did not carry any weapon for self-defense. Thus, by a rather bitter irony she was required to rely for protection on the City of New York which now denies all responsibility to her." [12] Instances of police refusing to protect someone in grave danger, who is urgently requesting help, are becoming disturbingly more common. In 1988, Lisa Bianco's violently abusive husband was finally in jail for beating and kidnapping her, after having victimized her for years. Ms. Bianco was somewhat comforted by the facts that he was supposedly serving a seven-year sentence, and she had been promised by the authorities that she'd be notified well in advance of his release. Nevertheless, after being in only a short time, he was temporarily released on an eight-hour pass, and she wasn't notified. He went directly to her house and, in front of their 6- and 10- year old daughters, beat Lisa Bianco to death. In 1989, in a suburb of Los Angeles, Maria Navarro called the L. A. County Sheriff's 911 emergency line asking for help. It was her birthday and there was a party at her house, but her estranged husband, against whom she had had a restraining order, said he was coming over to kill her. She believed him, but got no sympathy from the 911 dispatcher, who said: "What do you want us to do lady, send a car to sit outside your house?" Less than half an hour after Maria hung up in frustration, one of her guests called the same 911 line and informed the dispatcher that the husband was there and had already killed Maria and one other guest. Before the cops arrived, he had killed another. But certainly no cop would stand by and do nothing while someone was being violently victimized. Or would they? In Freeman v. Ferguson [13] a police chief directed his officers not to enforce a restraining order against a woman's estranged husband because the man was a friend of the chief's. The man subsequently killed the woman and her daughter. Perhaps such a specific case is an anomaly, but more instances of general abuses aren't at all rare. In one such typical case [14] , a woman and her son were harassed, threatened and assaulted by her estranged husband, all in violation of his probation and a restraining order. Despite numerous requests for police protection, the police did nothing because "the police department used an administrative classification that resulted in police protection being fully provided to persons abused by someone with whom the victim has no domestic relationship, but less protection when the victim is either: 1) a woman abused or assaulted by a spouse or boyfriend, or 2) a child abused by a father or stepfather." [15] In a much more recent case, [16] a woman claimed she was injured because the police refused to make an arrest following a domestic violence call. She claimed their refusal to arrest was due to a city policy of gender- based discrimination. In that case the U. S. District Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit held that "no constitutional violation [occurred] when the most that can be said of the police is that they stood by and did nothing..." [17] Do the police really harbor such indifference to the plight of certain victims? To answer that, let's leave the somewhat aloof and dispassionate world of legal precedent and move into the more easily understood "real world." I can state from considerable personal experience, unequivocally, that these things do happen. As to why they occur, I can offer only my opinion based on that experience and on additional research into the dark and murky areas of criminal sociopathy and police abuse. One client of my partner's and mine had a restraining order against her violently abusive estranged husband. He had recently beaten her so savagely a metal plate had to be implanted in her jaw. Over and over he violated the court order, sometimes thirty times daily. He repeatedly threatened to kill her and those of use helping her. But the cops refused to arrest him for violating the order, even though they'd witnessed him doing so more than once. They danced around all over the place trying to explain why they wouldn't enforce the order, including inventing numerous absurd excuses about having lost her file (a common tactic in these cases). It finally came to light that there was a departmental order to not arrest anyone in that county for violating a protective order because the county had recently been sued by an irate (and wealthy) domestic violence arrestee. In another of our cases, when Peggi and I served the man with restraining orders (something we're often required to do because various law enforcement agencies can't or won't do it), he threatened there and then to kill our client. Due to the vigorous nature of the threat, we went immediately to the police department to get it on file in case he attempted to carry it out during the few days before the upcoming court appearance. We spent hours filing the report, but two days later when our client went to the police department for a copy to take to court, she was told there was no record of her, her restraining order, her case, or our report. She called in a panic. Without that report it would be more difficult securing a permanent restraining order against him. I paid an immediate visit to the chief of that department. We discussed the situation and I suggested various options, including dragging the officer to whom Peggi and I had given the detailed death threat report into court to explain under oath how it had gotten lost. In mere moments, an internal affairs officer was assigned to investigate and, while I waited, they miraculously produced the file and our report. I was even telephoned later and offered an effusive apology by various members of the department. It is true that in the real world, law enforcement authorities very often do perpetuate the victimization. It is also true that each of us is the only person upon whom we can absolutely rely to avoid victimization. If our client in the last anecdote hadn't taken responsibility for her own fate, she might never have survived the ordeal. But she had sufficient resolve to fend for herself. Realizing the police couldn't or wouldn't help her, she contacted us. Then, when the police tried their bureaucratic shuffle on her, she called me. But for her determination to be a victim no more, and to take responsibility for her own destiny, she might have joined the countless others victimized first by criminals, then by the very system they expect will protect them. Remember, even if the police were obligated to protect us (which they aren't), or even if they tried to protect us (which they often don't, a fact brought home to millions nationwide as they watched in horror the recent events in Los Angeles), most often there wouldn't be time enough for them to do it. It's about time that we came to grips with that, and resolved never to abdicate responsibility for our personal safety, and that of our loved ones, to anyone else.
    1. Guns, Murders, and the Constitution (Pacific Research Institute for Public Policy, 1990). 2. A "dropped" call in police dispatcher parlance is one that isn't handled for a variety of reasons, such as because it goes unanswered. Calls from people who get tired of waiting on hold and hang up are classified as "drops" as well. 3. KGO Radio (Newstalk 810), 6:00 PM report, 09-26-91, and a subsequent personal interview with the reporter, Bernie Ward. 4. Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981). 5. See, for example, Riss v. City of New York, 22 N.Y.2d 579, 293 NYS2d 897, 240 N.E.2d 860 (N.Y. Ct. of Ap. 1958); Keane v. City of Chicago, 98 Ill. App.2d 460, 240 N.E.2d 321 (1968); Morgan v. District of Columbia, 468 A.2d 1306 (D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1983); Calogrides v. City of Mobile, 475 So.2d 560 (S.Ct. A;a. 1985); Morris v. Musser, 478 A.2d 937 (1984); Davidson v. City of Westminster, 32 C.3d 197, 185 Cal.Rptr. 252, 649 P.2d 894 (S.Ct. Cal. 1982); Chapman v. City of Philadelphia, 434 A.2d 753 (Sup.Ct. Penn. 1981); Weutrich v. Delia, 155 N.J. Super 324, 326, 382 A.2d 929, 930 (1978); Sapp v. City of Tallahassee, 348 So.2d 363 (Fla.Ct. of Ap. 1977); Simpson's Food Fair v. Evansville, 272 N.E. 2d 871 (Ind.Ct. of Ap.); Silver v. City of Minneapolis, 170 N.W.2d 206 (S.Ct. Minn. 1969) and Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 61 (7th Cir. 1982). 6. 109 S.Ct. 998 (1989). 7. "Domestic Violence -- When Do Police Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect?" Special Agent Daniel L. Schofield, S.J.D., FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin January, 1991. 8. DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services, 109 S.Ct. 998 (1989) at 1006. 9. 901 F.2d 696 (9th Cir. 1990). 10. 110 S.Ct. 975, 984 (1990). 11. Riss v. City of New York, 22 N.Y.2d 579, 293 NYS2d 897, 240 N.E.2d 860 (N.Y. Ct. of Ap. 1958). 12. Riss, Ibid. 13. 911 F.2d52 (8th Cir. 1990). 14. Thurman v. City of Torrington, 595 F.Supp.1521 (D.Conn. 1984). 15. "Domestic Violence -- When Do Police Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect?" Special Agent Daniel L. Schofield, S.J.D., FBI Law Enforcement Bulletin January, 1991. 16. McKee v. City of Rockwall, Texas, 877 F.2d409 (5th Cir. 1989), cert. denied, 110 S.Ct.727 (1990). 17. McKee v. City of Rockwall, Texas, Id. at 413.
    When you want to dial long distance...AT&T, .223, or Jeremiah 33.3?Member:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets
  • HerbyJrHerbyJr Member Posts: 41 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The JPFO has some good info on this subject. Try this link: http://www.jpfo.org/doctors.htm Good luck and let us know how it turns out.H.
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