If you could only rely on 1 assault caliber, which would it be?

offeror

Out of the same assault weapon, let's say it's semi-auto, if you could only defend yourself with .223 or 7.62x39, which would you choose and why? I don't care if it's mini14 vs. mini30 or two AR bores or two AK bores, but given that the gun was identical in terms of accuracy and reliability, so that only the cartridge and its effectiveness were at issue, which would you feel would most likely stop/wound/kill the enemy? You may discuss bullet weights, and I would also be interested in perceived differences, if any, in the effectiveness of jacketed point, hollow point, and soft point.

Redleg

Aw, man! You kind of left out the real bullets. The ones with actual knock-down power. Those that are chambered in 155mm.

robsguns

Keys to this conversation, as I see it are: defend, and, yourself. I'll take the 7.62 if I am ONLY defending myself. That means to me that I am not repelling an enemy from a distance, not a large force, and I want them dead now, with a large entrance and exit wound. I have just described what the 7.62x39 is extremely capable of, no if and or doubts about it. Any weight bullet you put in it, doesnt make a difference to me.

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SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC

offeror

Redleg --A fine point, but kind of hard to stash in my living room....!SSgt --Thanks a lot for that clearcut response. Keep them coming, folks. I'm interested.

.250Savage

No question: 7.62x51 NATO. Preferred launching platform M14/M1A, but as long as you got a good cartridge, I ain't fussy. Heck, even a short-chambered Garand would do fine. Oh yeah, standard 147gr FMJ works all right for me, throw in a few black tips and incindearies just for grins & giggles...

Evil ATF

If I could only have one caliber, it'd be 7.62 NATO (.308) hands down.If I could only have one "assault" caliber, it'd be 7.62x39mm in me AK!YAR Matey!

Shootist3006

30-06 is the only right answer. Don't need any of those mouse guns, I want to be able to shoot through a concrete wall and kill something on the other side. I also want to engage the other guy while I am out of his range but he ain't out of mine.

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Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis

mudge

.30 cal. for me too. In a Garand or M-14. True, I can't carry as much ammo as the .223 aficionados can but with that kind of power I shouldn't need as much. With the .30 cal. I can take you out long before you're within effective range with your .223.Mudge the marksman

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I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS!

offeror

I limited the question to the two most popular mid-range "assault rifle" calibers on purpose because in populated areas and for most home defense/self defense purposes you wouldn't necessarily want any more gun than that. It seems the .30 caliber wins the informal poll.I am fully aware that these days, home defense may mean more than one perp at a time, and I could have easily added to this topic the question, what would you do if we were talking looters after a tornado/earthquake/fire or a mob of the L.A. riot variety. But I don't have to, because I'm sure the answer would be the more perps, the larger the .30. I must say I was impressed by those few store owners who held off the mob with their handguns in L.A. -- even though the looters came back during the night in some cases and torched their businesses. At least they TRIED to save their property.We are in a world where the rifle cartridge, in rifle or carbine, is making more and more sense for defense in the non-military setting. I think the lighter weight .308s are making more and more sense (because the round is perhaps easiest to find and acquire, an important consideration when society breaks down a bit). Personally, I'm going to take a long look at that H&K G3 Carbine that Federal is offering at the gun show this weekend, and any other interesting delivery system for a .308. I've been interested in owning another black rifle one of these days, when I can afford a bit more hardware, and if so I may look for an AR10 in carbine length. Meanwhile, I'm kinda comforted to know you guys don't look down too much on my current choice, the AK-47 in 7.62. Even though some of you would like me better if I owned a Tanker (my favorite Garand).

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"The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."

thesupermonkey

22 Lr. The only round you can carry a couple thousand rounds of and not die of exhaustion.

simonbs

...SuperMonkey crouches low, holding a brace of Jennings J-22s with mini-bayonets fixed. Straped onto to his LBE is 10,000 rounds of copper-coated hollow points. The Monkey is prepared for his arch-enemy, the...

HAL-9000

Well this is always a good argument/discussion. I believe the best all around weapon/cal for every situation would be the AR 5.56. It is light, effective, accurate, resuppliable.( but I do go along with the idea already presented, use what your enemy uses.)In combat its rare to shoot beyond 100 yards, really really rare to shoot to 300 yards. From 300 to 500 yards all I have to do is hit you, don't need a kill shot.Accurate rapid fire with a 308 is really, really hard to do. AKs, on the whole, are not accurate weapons. Good for spray and pray.I'd take a HBAR.

Shootist3006

Hal, you have missed the point. With the .308 (or better yet the 30-06) you don't need accurate RAPID fire, you only need ACCURATE fire. spray and pray is good for busting out of an ambush but any other time it is just a waste of ammo; might as well just pray.

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Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis

mlincoln

The question we're really asking here is are people willing to get with the times and accept modern theories of combat and war. Time and again research has shown what the previous fellow noted: most combat happens at rather short ranges, most people are not good shots, most people are even worse shots when the target is shooting back, and the assault rifle concept is the best way to address these problems. Giving a fellow a gun that doesn't recoil much, that is spilling over with rounds, and that works well at the range most combat takes place is the best way to make him into an effective soldier.Also, we need to realize that most combat is not the one careful shot after another we would like to think it is. A rifle has to be able to spray a bunch of rounds into a kill zone and to deliver suppressing fire. It must also be able to throw out a tons of rounds to break an ambush or in some other close combat situation. A Garand or bolt gun or whatever just can't do that job. An assault rifle can.You fuddie-duddies need to get with the times!

22WRF

Sorry you only gave us 2 choices. Neither which I would want. But then you did say "assault weapon" which means "spray 'em" to me. I would rather take my chances with a tack driver and my choice would be Winchester Model 70 Varminter .308 24" heavy barrel.

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NRA Pistol InstructorP'cola. FL Home of the Blue AngelsnIshnabe'k

mudge

OK...If I have to choose between the two you gave us, I'll take the .223. I've got one that will put 10 out of 10 in the kill zone at 100 yds. in rapid fire. (Yeah...on a rainy, moonless night, with a gusting crosswind. )You sure I can't flip the selector over one more notch?Mr. Lincoln....."FUDDIE DUDDIE THIS"Mudge the sharpshooter

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I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS![This message has been edited by mudge (edited 01-03-2002).][This message has been edited by mudge (edited 01-04-2002).]

thesupermonkey

Gawd Dang you people, your not listening to what I'm saying!!!! The best round for ANY situation is the 22 Lr. shot out of a nice lite Jennings with attached mini-bayonet with hand painted day glow orange side mounted nyte sytes!!!!Monkey the exasperated...

simonbs

...terroist, OBL. Suddenly, without warning, Monkey bursts into a sprint heading for cover. Luckily, since Monkey is only carrying 10,000 rnds of .22lr ammo, he is not weighted down and is able to avoid a sneak attack by OBL...

thesupermonkey

Hey Simon!I was reading your profile, and uh well...I was interested in hunting some family as well and was wondering where I'd get a permit for something like that? Got a few in laws I'd like to bag this season. What kind of lures do you use? Shooting and hunting your family, at least some fun stuff is still legal...Munkey

pops401

308........I trust me

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I'll buy just one more gun and I'll quit.....HONEST....History is a vast early warning system

simonbs

(since Monkey's latest remark)...To our dismay, our hero being cocky and full of himself, turned into a smart@$$, and OBL's ally the ATF caught him by surprise. Now our hero, J22s and ammo confiscated for attaching a bayonet with a pistol grip, is...

Evil ATF

...under arrest."Come with me, Monkey" says Evil. "I'm with the Gubbermint and here to help you."

sig-man

Is the 12 guage a NATO round ? I hope so because that's what I would choose in the form of an 870 Remington...

Txs

If I were restricted to one caliber and not just one weapon, I'd go with the .223.The .308 and the '06 rule when it comes to long shots, but are less suitable for situations that call for rapid fire at close quarters. The .223 strikes a better balance over a wide range of tactical situations.In a good scoped rifle this round will keep hits on a head at 300 yds. A full size AR, with burst fire capability, is good for making rapidly aimed hits from up close on out to a couple of hundred yds. A full-auto/burst fire equipped SMG size weapon would be just the ticket for up-close engagements where weapon mobility, high rate of fire and low recoil are essential.For use against a large mob, lots of ammo is a requirement. The mother of all mob scenarios was seen in Somalia. If our Rangers in Mogadishu had been armed with .308's there would probably be more deceased and less wounded Somalis, but there would have also been a higher US casualty rate due to troops running out of ammo.

offeror

The point of the exercise was to take the two most popular "grunt" rounds -- the .223 as supplied by the U.S. and the 7.62 as supplied by the former Soviet Union -- and compare them directly for effectiveness. I could have asked it another way -- if you had to buy a Mini-14 or a Mini-30 for home & property defense, which would you select. This suggests the focus is on the benefits of the round, not the delivery system. Obviously, the AR has a reputation for finicky operation in the field, and the AK has a variable reputation for accuracy. But if these two overwhelmingly popular rounds are shot out of equal guns, which performs better on attackers? I notice nobody felt the differences in point worth mentioning (hollow, soft, metal cased)...Thanks for all the points of view.

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"The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."

ED P

I prefer 7.62x39- though as most know the .223 has more wounding power if used in a full 20" barrel. Even a 16" barrel supposedly cuts down enough on velocity to significantly diminish the attempted wounding effect, at least from what I've read at ar15.comStrictly from a reliability standpoint (whether AK or Mini-30) a cartridge of greater rim diameter leaves more room for slop (after market mag that doesn't seat as well, bent feed lips, etc...) for feeding correctly, and I've also heard the 7.62x39 (and the new 5.45 round) deliberately use a thicker rim material for less chance of separation from the cartridge.The real downside I see to 7.62x39 is that it has alot more kick, and is far more difficult to control on full auto. I've had the chance to shoot a full auto AK once, and found it climbed very quickly, by the 3rd round I was over a foot off the target. The 5.45 Soviet cartidge definitely took a lesson from the 5.56 for full auto climb, and wounding ballistics. Having given my view on your original question, I'll stick my neck out to differ with all the people who keep a .223 or 7.62x39 cartridge for home defense, and say unless you're planning to hike 20 miles a day, in which case a lighter round makes sense, I think .308 or 30-06, or any bigger caliber makes more sense.If you're just defending your homestead, use the home field advantage. Weight or number of rounds in a pack doesn't matter when you can store it in a toolbox in your home or vehicle.[This message has been edited by ED P (edited 01-03-2002).]

robsguns

I think a few of you strayed from the question, at least as I took it. The question dealt with personal self defense, not squad tactics and jungle missions. I believe in a situation of self defense the idea is to expeditiously and effectively neutralize your attacker, from a close proximity. You understand what I mean?mlincoln,I think you may be the fuddy duddy. The military did away with your theory on shooting tactics at the end of Vietnam. That was the reason for going to a weapon that has only a 3 rd. burst, and a better training ciruculum, via more range time, and emphasis of shooting skills. I like to knock on the Army sometimes, but I believe even they have adopted the way of training soldiers to shoot, as the Marine Corps does. I dont work with a bunch of non shooters, and its not a good idea to have to carry an excessive amount of ammo, its just dead weight. Thats the reason Marines are trained in the one shot one kill method, to this day.

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SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC

simonbs

Hey Munkey,I've found the best lures to use to attract family members are the following:Death of a rich uncleThrowing a Christmas partyOffer to give away guns, furniture, etc.I don't use permits, guess I'm a poacher.Happy hunting.

mudge

Sgt. Roberts.....Thank you!! You seem to be one of the few who agree with my point of view on the reason for the "3 shot burst".What is gained by being able to carry more ammo, (.223 v. .30-06) if you're going to use 10 rounds to take out 1 of the enemy? Mudge the disciplined

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I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS![This message has been edited by mudge (edited 01-04-2002).]

mlincoln

Sgt. Roberts, you're assuming that just because the military is now doing something new, it's an improvement. S.L.A. Marshall and Grossman have shown that getting a person to stick his head up on a battlefield his weapon is a very, very difficult thing to do. The rates of the regular US combat troops who did so during WWII was below 25%. Marshall and Grossman cite a bunch of different factors, but key among them was the shooting training they were given. They were trained on quiet firing lines with round targets and were taught to relax and squeeze the trigger. Quite the opposite of what they faced on the battlefield. The Quickfire--I believe that's the right term--program instituted for the Vietnam War greatly increased the number of men of aimed and fired their weapons. I believe the figure was something like 90%. That's a huge increase.Also, if you go with the one shot-one kill method, you deny the theory of kill zones, suppressive fire, and machine guns in general. Some believe that a major reason German infantry was such a powerful force during WWII is their belief that the first thing to do during a fight is to get the machine gun well forward and have it hose down the enemy's position. Some allied soldiers remarked that the German infantry man was nothing more than a ammo carrier for the machine gun.PS Please don't take any offense with the fuddy-duddy remark. Some of the old fellows on the board don't get going unless you give them a little poke. And thank you for all you're doing to protect our country.

robsguns

mlincoln,The people you mention I am not familiar with, I admit. However, I disagree with the volume of fire theory. It only works in the methods you talk of, kill zones and suppressive fire. But we are again not talking about the topic of self defense when we start talking about squad tactics and machine gun fire. I believe that is what the original post was intended to do. Self defense of a person, not a force. Also, the training on a quiet firing line has also changed, a lot of things have changed over the last ten years. Qualification occurs on the firing line, not training. There is a lot of newer training that entails much more, that I cant even begin to cover in this amount of space. I am speaking on the Marine side of the house, I dont know what the Army does. But they arent far off of us.The entire reason for the great amount of rounds fired, vs. low kill ratio during the Vietnam conflict, was due to the methods you mention that were in place at that time, it was proven to be a poor way to eliminate the enemy, and that is why it is no longer done, nor do we have automatic weapons in the hands of the entire fireteam, squad, platoon. The machine guns are for a purpose, and that purpose should not be confused with the rifleman's. But hey, way off base here, I still say 7.62x39 for SELF DEFENSE, not that I'd want to carry it in war, but around the house, you bet, thats why I have one, still working on the AR 15.

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SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC[This message has been edited by robsguns (edited 01-04-2002).]

robsguns

Real physical pain sucks, I cry for my mom every time I get diarrhea, ouch, or throw up, ugh, but getting shot, that should be relatively mild comparatively, dunno though, never been shot. Hey, has this topic been posted yet? Ed says it has, never mind.

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SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC[This message has been edited by robsguns (edited 01-04-2002).]

ED P

I've been stabbed, and found it suprisingly painless. I'd imagine it's where you get shot or stabbed, I got it about 5" deep in the thigh, but in the gut would probably be a different story.P.S.- I think there was a Have you ever been shot topic a couple months back here.[This message has been edited by ED P (edited 01-04-2002).]

marvhucker

Consider Nukes. Marv(Sgt USMC 66-70, Quit)

BlueTic

I'AM OFFENDED BY THE USE OF THE TERM ASSAULT.... But I'll get over it. I've seen speed, weight, stopping power. Question 1. What are you assaulting??? Indoor use - short range, go lite .223.. Outdoor use - long range, get somethin medium .308 or 30-06. If your taking out a building with a plane - box cutter. "ASSAULT" thats what it means - NOT what we do around here - no matter how hard the lib's want to believe. My rifles are not assault weapons!!!!!

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IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY RIGHTS - GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY (this includes politicians)

gunnut

Im with Redleg on this one, nothing like a 155 HE coming down 13F AKA thE NuT

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~Secret Select Society Of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets~