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Drawing against the Drop...

thesupermonkeythesupermonkey Member Posts: 3,905 ✭✭
edited April 2002 in General Discussion
One of these years, writer's cramp will eventually behoove me to put down the pen, discontinue filling out yellow forms, and go get my CHL. I've been contemplating a great deal as to how I would react under certain circumstances. From my what I've seen 90% of getting through a confrontation is to avoid the confrontation to begin with, the rest is being prepared for the ones you can't avoid. While one can continuously strive to maintain a high alertness level, I'm sure no one can stay in the 'yellow zone' all of the time. While those alertness gaps should be few and far between I can't help but wonder how I would react should I be confronted in a momentary lapse of unawareness. For example, a man accosts you wielding a gun and demanding your wallet. Do you:
A) Give up the wallet and hope you don't get shot.
B) Reach for the wallet and pull the gun.

I realize that no amount of money is worth my life or even the life of the thug whose robbing me. However, if I yield I'm putting my life in the hands of a criminal whose already made it clear he has no problem balancing my life on the tip of his finger. The thug might even be so twitchy that he shoots me when I pull out my wallet. If I draw my weapon, there is a very good possibility that he might have only been interested in robbing me, and my actions have now escalated the issue into life or death. What say you jury of wise peers? Draw against the drop?
Munkey


Don't worry about the bullet with your name on it, worry about the fragmentation grenade addressed 'To Occupant'.
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Comments

  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm thinking about a big article that Massad Ayoob wrote once about what happens when confronted. It talked about trained officers who react out of instinct most of the time, how officers can't recall how many shots they fired or if they saw the sights on the gun. According to him, no level of training can fully prepare you for a fight. As for we people who don't have training, it gets much worse. I can relater to some of his writings after dealing with a few brawls that I have a way of getting into, I tell myself I will react this way and make this move, or counter his moves with this, it hardly ever works out and I end up getting another lesson in boxing. He writes that the same is true in a firefight involving someone not drilled and trained. In other words, we can be gung ho and claim , "if that punk tries this I'm gonna give him a dose of lead poisoning". If somebody tries to mug me I'll just pull my gun and shoot him. You may or you may not do that, you may just crap your pants and forget all about that Wilson Combat .45 in your paddle holster, you may draw that weapon and shoot your self in the foot. You may never know. I hope I myself never have to find out if I can do it, I pray that I never have to pull that gun. I don't want to shoot anybody, but I tell myself I can do it if I need to, but can I? Should you surrender that wallet or fight? All I can say is from what I'v read, each situation is to be treated differently and you should have enough training and practice that when the ca ca hits the fan, instinct and training take over.

    BTW, I don't believe everything I read and take it with a grain of salt but I tend to believe a little bit of Massad's work. He may be 100% wrong, but then again, what if he's right?

    If you want my guns you will have to kill me first. I was born free and to take that from me you better be ready to fight.
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  • MercuryMercury Member Posts: 7,830 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hand over the wallet, and shoot him in the back. :) (fair's fair)

    NO! You may not have my gun! Now go crawl back into your hole!
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  • sandman2234sandman2234 Member Posts: 894 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I had that happen. They woke me up with a big pistol in my face. I had a razor sharp hunting knife just inches from my left hand,in a sheath, and a colt .45 just behind my head on a shelf. I reached over, picked up the wallet, opened it and told them "you don't want my wallet... Just take the money and leave me the pictures." The girl reached in, grabbed the bills, and backed out the passenger door. When the door slammed, I grabbed the pistol, but they were gone.

    Have Gun, will travel
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  • smokinggunsmokinggun Member Posts: 590 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I practice as much as I can. I always carry a black gun so that it will look more like a wallet than a stainless gun. It was a little hard to find, but my all black KAHR p-9 fits the bill more than anything else I have found. I could die doing(or notdoing it) it but I would probably Draw agaist the Drop.
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  • varmit huntervarmit hunter Member Posts: 1,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Monkey,I make this comment with the greatest respect for you.If you have to ask this question,You are not ready to go there yet.Is there a IDPA match near you.This has to be the very best training there is for a civilian.

    I only live two hours from you.We have a outstanding club in little ole Orange,We also have top of the line instruction, For the questions you are asking.If you would like,I would be very proud for you to be my guest anytime.

    As for me .I choose not to be a victim.Any one who points a gun at me, Is telling me he intends to take my life.He may , But he wont get it for free.

    A unarmed man is a subject.A armed man is a citizen.
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  • varmit huntervarmit hunter Member Posts: 1,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Saxon,You will find the laws concerning deadly force very different in Texas.We can use deadly force to protect property.Even the property of a third person.

    A unarmed man is a subject.A armed man is a citizen.

    Edited by - varmit hunter on 04/12/2002 00:03:46
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  • chilipchilip Member Posts: 54 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Varmit hunter.....you are partially correct. We can defend property using deadly force but only after dark. Shoot someone in your front yard who is trying to steal your car at 12 noon and you're in big trouble.
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  • varmit huntervarmit hunter Member Posts: 1,674 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Chilip,Think you need to recheck that one.It is if you dont have a resonable expectation of recovering your property.No were in chapter 6 is dark mentioned,That I can find.Just took my third reup last week.

    A unarmed man is a subject.A armed man is a citizen.
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  • mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thought about (obviously). Don't really know. Like the man said,
    "All plans go out the window when the first shot is fired."
    Kinda' got to evaluate each situation as it unfolds.
    I had to shoot a guy that broke into the house at 0130 and came through the bedroom door, screaming and waving a baseball bat.
    Let there be no doubt in your mind...in that situation, you'll double tap the perp, just like you've practiced. When the perp has the drop...I dunno. Hopefully, Mrs. Mudge will be there to nail him with the little black Glock. :):):) He ain't gonna get both of us.

    Mudge the vigilante

    I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS!

    Edited by - mudge on 04/12/2002 16:04:13
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  • instrumentofwarinstrumentofwar Member Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Monkey: Only time will tell. There are many things that will go through your mind just thinking about it, let alone if it really happens. This is one of those things that you can't plan for. If you have taken any sort of combatives/MMA one thing you WILL learn is that you cannot go into a fight already planning your moves. You have to flow with the attacker(for the time being, the attacker usually ends up being the victim if you know what I mean)until you create an opening and then flow with the most devastating or lethal option you have. That goes for armed (edged or firearm) or plain ole' hand to hand. As far as the gun/knife scenario go I personally would go for a strip over a draw if it's within arms reach. Most assailants will get close wishing for added intimidation and the hopes of drawing less attention. Make your move. Whichever you choose, ACT FAST, VIOLENTLY, LOUD, and most of all WITHOUT HESITATIONIt's a violent world out there....are you a sheep or a wolf?

    Some people just shouldn't be allowed to breed
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  • Rafter-SRafter-S Member Posts: 2,173 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:For example, a man accosts you wielding a gun and demanding your wallet. Do you:
    A) Give up the wallet and hope you don't get shot.
    B) Reach for the wallet and pull the gun.

    #1-- There is nothing in your wallet worth getting shot over--period. If you can get out of the situation with only the loss of a few bucks, your credit cards, drivers license, and CHL, consider yourself lucky.

    #2-- You have to determine if you think you are going to get hurt by this guy. That is; is he going to shoot you? It's a "yes"/"no" decision you have to make.

    #3-- If you conclude "yes, he's going to hurt me," then you have no alternative but to go against the drop and take your chances.

    I have had similar concerns about what to do in different situations. One I have always worried about is stumbling into a convenience store robbery. What to do when robbers are in action and have others drawn on as well as myself. I wouldn't want to do anything that would get someone else hurt as a result.
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  • smokinggunsmokinggun Member Posts: 590 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have noticed in practicing this situation that a safety slows me down and screws up my draw. Because of this I only carry double action or double action only without a safety. Every microsecond counts.
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  • instrumentofwarinstrumentofwar Member Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have to dissagree, think about it.

    1. You draw, this does nothing to alleviate the fact that you have a gun pointed at your head/chest/whatever. Even if you move he has the capability to track you with the muzzle, and what if you're with people(wife or such?)
    2. You reach for wallet with palms at muzzle level, saying "what do you want" or "I'm going to get my wallet", anything to get their eyes on your "wallet hand". With the other you clear the weapon away from your centerline and away from your partner. The trap pulls off balance, and the hand is placed to strip down to the piece trapping the slide/cylinder from cycling or hammer from falling. If it does fire it's off your centerline(vitals) but will be unable to fire again. With the unbalincing you step through the target (at this time if he doesn't release his grip at a bare minnimum his hand is broken) disarming, if at this time you wish you may throw a knife hand against his throat, and keep moving. Make distance, not up in the face like his mistake. Tap, rack, ready. Now, depending on the witnesses, the beatings may commence.

    No I'm not trying to say that this will work for everything. This is simply ONE way of dealing with lo/high front threats.

    Some people just shouldn't be allowed to breed
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