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Great Gun inventor?

gunone4gunone4 Member Posts: 39 ✭✭
edited November 2002 in General Discussion
Really enjoyed joining this community of gun lovers.My question is, Who do you all think is the great gun inventor of all time?My choice is John Browning With over 80 firearms to his credit most still used today.I would like some of your thaughts.

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    DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,938 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I would agree. Kalashnikov second, Stoner third.


    Resident Wittgensteinian
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    dheffleydheffley Member Posts: 25,000
    edited November -1
    Mr. John Browning first, Charles Garand next.

    The NRA is on our side!
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    pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,844 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    No doubt Browning is first.

    The gene pool needs chlorine.
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    greeker375greeker375 Member Posts: 3,644
    edited November -1
    Many years ago while visiting my in-laws in Utah, I had occassion to visit Browning Arms Co in Green Mountain, Utah. My Father-in-Law was an auditor for the state and had to go up to obtain some documents. While there I was introduced to the grandson of J.M.Browing, by then an old man himself. At any rate, what he told me about J.M.B made me believe him to be THE # 1 firearms inventor. Others may have had some genius for an individual gun,i.e. Kalishnikov, Garand, Stoner or even Johnson. But, for all types of actions and operating systems, John M. Browning has to the top kick of all time.
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    gunone4gunone4 Member Posts: 39 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks guys.Where do you rank;Sam Colt and Christian Sharps
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    22WRF22WRF Member Posts: 3,385
    edited November -1
    No doubt John Browning, Sam Colt at the top of the list.
    Under great contabutions:
    Greener (Hammerless)
    Richard Gatling (Gatling gun)
    Maxim (Portable machinegun)

    I Refuse to be a VictimGrumpy old man

    Life, Liberty, and Pursuit of All Those that Threaten it
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    Judge DreadJudge Dread Member Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ALL of the mentioned avove ......but Charles Garand has the TOPS ..
    without his invention we woud be speaking german....

    But what the heck ! We ended being a fasist country anyhow.......
    Call it The Home security sindrome...


    JD

    Donate to free energy R&D Just Paypall $$$ to:
    arkresearch@hotmail.com
    Intelligence is not measured in paper but in the ability of adaptation and analysis performance in multy-tasking problem solving work....
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    mrmike08075mrmike08075 Member Posts: 10,998 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    berthier, lebel, walther, bayard, bergman, korovin, mannlicher, rollin white, borchadt, etc... many duplicated the same work/ideas/patents. most are forgotten in history. certainly we are all familier with colt, smith, wesson, browning, williams, garand, etc... they are local notables. a closer look into the obscure and often foriegn makers/inventers yields some interesting reading. often there ideas were co-opted or stolen. some died in pennyless obscurity while there ideas were credited to others.

    What other dungeon is so dark as ones own heart, what jailer so inexorable as ones own mind.
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    rpo242rpo242 Member Posts: 570 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    These guys are great. I think Bill Ruger has to be in there close to the top, with as many models as he has come up with. They all seem to either fill a market or create one. Just a thought.

    You can't miss fast enough.
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    ED PED P Member Posts: 190 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Hiram Berdan, the guy who invented the brass cartridge and bolt action rifle, around 1870.
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    pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,844 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Don't get me wrong, I like (AND OWN) quite a few Rugers, but Bill does not rate as a gun inventor. He made small changes in a design and then produced a sturdy, dependable firearm. For the money, one of the best there is.

    The gene pool needs chlorine.
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    RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,637 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I have to agree with Pickenup. Bill Ruger did more refinements and improvements to most guns from the inventors of great guns and made them better. But he still has some inventions that are all his, that are tried and proven.

    How Can You Compete With This?

    Mikhail Timofeevich Kalashnikov
    More Than 70,000,000 AK47's Have Been Produced Worldwide Since 1949.
    Used by more than 50 Armies World Wide.



    Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
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    REBJrREBJr Member Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    rugerniner, you can't compete with klashnakov, hands down #1
    for somebody to actually mention stoner is obscene, how many men died holding his jammed up inferior weapon? stoner should have been shot as a traitor, maybe they tried with a m-16, and it jammed!!!!-Ralph

    It was never supposed to be like this.
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    snarlgardsnarlgard Member Posts: 1,310 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:
    rugerniner, you can't compete with klashnakov, hands down #1
    for somebody to actually mention stoner is obscene, how many men died holding his jammed up inferior weapon? stoner should have been shot as a traitor, maybe they tried with a m-16, and it jammed!!!!-Ralph

    It was never supposed to be like this.

    whoa down there reb. stoner made a very good weapon untill the politios
    got ahold of it and change things to make it cheaper
    Macnamara (spl) change the requirment to chrome the barrel and chamber to cut cost and shiped the weapons with no cleaning equipment
    or armorers that were trained in the weapon upkeep
    HE should have been charged with murder for every one lost for his bad decisions
    But instead everone blamed the weapon.

    Lt. snarlgard RRG
    SMILE...MAKE EM WONDER WHAT YOUR UP TO
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    REBJrREBJr Member Posts: 1,210 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My opinion stands, stoner produced an inferior weapon and rushed it into production, only after mem died and pressure was put on him did he fix his design flaws. The man traded lives he didn't own to make money winning a govt contract. In my book that's a traitor. The govt side of it is a whole 'nother discussion. Yes, now after the repairs, the AR type is a fine weapon -Ralph



    It was never supposed to be like this.
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    snake-eyessnake-eyes Member Posts: 869
    edited November -1
    I thought the whole reason the M-16 jammed when it was first sent to Vietnam was because Uncle Sam used cheap powder that fouled the operating system, was later corrected by changing gun powder..Think it was on the history channel awhile back.

    *In 1909 Henry Ford created the Model T and it got around 30mpg..today's Ford's may be safer and more luxurious but in 100 years we've not really gotten further on a gallon of gasoline have we?*
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    Jody CommanderJody Commander Member Posts: 855 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Kalishnikov?????
    Trigger system: design taken from Brownings patent for the 1900 SL shotgun.
    Gas system: design from William' adaptation of Browning's system for using barrel gases to propel a piston unlocking a turning breech block.
    someone explain exactly what Kalishnikov did NOT steal from Browning? sure, his refinements were cheaper to produce, but by using this as a judging criteria, why are we not all driving a Yugo?
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    Jody CommanderJody Commander Member Posts: 855 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    "CHARLES" Garand?
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    LABWILDLABWILD Member Posts: 506 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    John Browning is No. 1. I recently read a book about him. Bill Ruger deserves at the least an honorable mention.
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    RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,637 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm starting to think by some of these post that John Browning invented everything there is about guns and no one else contributed anything.

    Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
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    Jody CommanderJody Commander Member Posts: 855 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ruger9r:
    Have to give the Devil his due, Browning was the most prolific gun mechanic/designer in the short history of self contained cartridges. While on the subject of giving due, Bill Ruger was a innovative developer and marketer, he used existing designs modified to be saleable to the average shooter, until he came along, most of the marketing in firearms was directed at hunters and target shooters. Bill Ruger changed all this, his guns were manufactured to be sold to plinkers and others who just enjoy shooting informally, he taught every other gun company in the world a lesson,you will sell a lot more average guns at average prices to average people when you gear your product to the market. Yep He was a genius, a genius that made and sold a good product at a good price, ain't many of those around.
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    steve45steve45 Member Posts: 2,940 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    My vote goes to John Browning. I still wonder what the U.S. would have used for machine guns in WWII without him. REBJr, Snarlguard and Snake-eyes are correct. The Government in its wisdom put a rifle into combat with no cleaning kits, used a powder much dirtier than Stoners specs demanded and made other unauthorized design changes. It wasn't Stoners fault or design that failed on those infantrymen.
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    offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Geez, nobody has mentioned Gaston Glock!

    I think Browning deserves a big nod, and I have to say that inventors often get their best "ahas" by improving on other peoples' ideas. The brilliance of Kalashnikov was the attitude he took toward what a gun should be. Of course, seeing him on TV now, he borders on having a bit too much ego about it, but with 50 million or so of his specific model in the world I guess he has a right to a certain amount of smugness.

    Stoner gets too much heat. His early prototypes were somewhat different from what the military ordered him to build for them. They have to take a share of the blame, and I think that gets Stoner off the hook. Given what he was looking at in the military of his day, the gun(s) he designed were innovative. The military simply sidelined his "futuristic" gun and kept "developing" it their way, while in the meantime fielding the M1A. Kalashnikov had the luxury of rising to a level of influence and prestige as a sort of whiz kid that gave him more freedom to design his way. Even so, his first design was never built (in favor of the SKS), and his early AKs had problems due to welding inadequacy. And the forged receivers were too heavy by over 2 pounds. It wasn't until welding technology caught up with the AK that the guns became as good as we know them now in the post forged-receiver era, despite the fact that a forged receiver Soviet boat anchor will cost you more on the collector's market.

    Nobody likes the M1 Carbine well enough to pick Carbine Williams, and fewer know enough of the history to pick Colt or Wesson, I suppose. And Winchester wasn't really a gun designer at all, was he? He was a CEO type. Though they make good guns. Of course, whoever made German's first Sturm-Gewehr should get a mention for innovation, but I don't know who that was.

    Or we could just pick the whole Jennings family, for making a series of guns that any American can afford to jam.
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    JDFRICKJDFRICK Member Posts: 104 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Most of you folk's for got more about gun's then I know.However,Ive read some,and Ive seen some documentries.I have to say my vote is MR.BROWNING .He was a genius.

    JIM FRICK
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    v35v35 Member Posts: 12,710 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I thought Kalishnikov took the trigger mechanism from the Garand.
    His claim to fame was that he drew off a lot of gas from the huge AK gas port to power a heavy bolt carrier against a powerful operating spring. The combination could overpower rust, mud, dust, ice and dirty and deformed ammunition to fire reliably. The heavily reinforced magazine lips resisted deformation in combat conditions.
    These areas are exactly the weaknesses of the AR15/16

    How about Pederson whom Browning called a genius. He designed some great guns for Remington-and then there's his Pederson device for the '03 Springfield ; a secret weapon. To appreciate his work you have to handle and shoot his guns, take them apart and look at the parts and the novel way he solved mechanical problems.

    Stoners AR 15-16 gas system, blowing gas directly into the action is a fundamental design defect for a combat weapon. I rank his work with that of Hugo Borchardt/Georg Luger. Both designs are flawed in reliability for combat conditions. At least in the case of the Luger, the U.S. Army rejected it for good and proper reasons. The alleged fixes to the AR didnt address the fundamental problems.
    It was heart breaking to read accounts of the many GIs who were bayonetted while trying to clear AR16 jams.


    Spagin who designed the PPsh41, a stamped cheapo that was accurate and very effective in WW2 and Korea.

    Bill Ruger has had a 50 year run with ever improving guns. He didnt sit on ancient designs like Colt and S&W but kept innovating. That's why Colt and S&W are sucking wind while Ruger is healthy.
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    gunone4gunone4 Member Posts: 39 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I noticed no one mentiond the Berretta famaliy Who has been making firearms since 1526.
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    Jody CommanderJody Commander Member Posts: 855 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    v35:
    Look at the trigger/safety assembly of a Remington model 8 (Browning design) and see if it looks like Mr.Kalishnikov may have borrowed. Garand borrowed from Browning too,the first semi-auto rifle design that is known to have worked was Brownings adaptation of a lever action Winchester, He used gases from the barrel to activate the lever, it was a tool room expieriment but worked and led to further development of gas bleed/recoil systems.
    An argument can be made that the Mauser designs impacted gun history the most, world wide.
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    gruntledgruntled Member Posts: 8,218 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    #1. The first guy who came up with the hand cannon.
    2. First matchlock
    3. First flintlock predecessor
    4. The man who invented percussion ignition. (I think the name was
    something like Forcyth)
    5. First self-contained cartridge (Volcannic, BB Cap?)
    6. Only then the people you have been nameing.
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    pickenuppickenup Member Posts: 22,844 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Browning history link;

    http://huntingsociety.org/HistBrowning.html

    October 7, 1879 U.S. Patent No. 220,271 was granted for the single shot rifle.

    February 16, 1886 Patent No. 336,287 was granted on a lever action repeating shotgun. Known as the Winchester Model 1887, it was the first successful repeating shotgun.

    November 7, 1892 Filed first patents on the Colt Model 1895 Automatic Machine Gun.

    September 14, 1895 Filed patent application on first semi-automatic pistol.

    February 8, 1900 The first of four patents were filed on the revolutionary autoloading shotgun. It would be manufactured by Fabrique Nationale in 1903 and by Remington Arms Company in 1905.

    July 10, 1902 Patent application was filed on a pump action shotgun that would become the Stevens Model 520.


    http://www.theunionstation.org/browning.htm

    many of his inventions were manufactured and sold under names such as Winchester, Remington, and Colt.



    Seems to me that Browning had a rather large influence on alot of the companies that we are familiar with. No?

    The gene pool needs chlorine.
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    GatofeoGatofeo Member Posts: 230 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    1. John Browning.
    2. Samuel Colt, not only for his inventions. His talent for marketing was unequalled at the time. He also, through his factory, advanced the sciences of metallurgy and modern business practices.
    At a time (1850s and 1860s) when most workers were considered expendable and unworthy of basic decency by employers, Sam Colt built housing, schools and recreational facilities for his workers near his factory.
    He was a great advancer in sociology and labor rights too. If you worked at the Colt factory in the 1850s or 1860s, you made a very good wage, in comparatively safe conditions, compared to other factory workers of the day.
    3. Joshua Shaw, who reportedly invented the percussion cap in the early 1800s. By the 1830s it was widely distributed as an ignition system. Without the percussion cap, the modern primer and cased ammunition would not be possible. Someone would have invented the percussion cap eventually, as is true with nearly all inventions, but Shaw is believed to be the first.
    4. The J. Stevens Arms & Tool company workers who, in 1887, invented the cartridge we call the .22 Long Rifle. This is the world's most popular cartridge. It's used by every major military force in the world, usually for training, but sometimes for more nefarious purposes (assassination comes to mind).
    The modern .22 Long Rifle cartridge generates more energy, compared to its size, than any other cartridge extant.
    5. The inventor(s) of black powder. It is believed that an ancient Chinese recipe for a longevity potion is the basis for gunpowder. However, there is also evidence that black powder was invented in the Middle East, probably Arabia. Who knows? Without this compound, we'd all be talking about bows, slings, whether to use a large or medium stone against intruders or how long an arrow was needed to kill game.
    I'd have to give the nod to the above inventors, instead of choosing just one.

    "A hit with a .22 is better than a miss with a .44!"
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    offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    v35 and gruntled both make good points.

    The other thing I was thinking is, it would be funny if the truth was that the very things that make the AK great -- it's basic looseness -- were really just poor manufacturing features that happened to work well.

    I still say Gaston Glock deserves a mention, as does the German, whoever he was, that developed the carbine that appeared at the end of WWII, was it the M44? -- anyway, the early German "assault rifle," and its mid-power cartridge, on which Kalashnikov claims his AK was definitely NOT based!
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    Warpig883Warpig883 Member Posts: 6,459
    edited November -1
    John Moses Browning.


    Mauser brothers.

    Colt.




    Bill Ruger was a great industrialist and marketer but is nowhere near the likes of the others mentioned above. If the question was "Who did the most for firearms ownership in the US?" Then I am sure his name would be at or near the top and justifyibly so. However the man was not a great inventer like the others named above.


    moc.murofsmraerifeht
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    RembrandtRembrandt Member Posts: 4,486 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Don't forget "Johnathan Browning"....John Moses Browning's father, he had several unique actions that no doubt spurred the younger to a career as a firearm designer...my favorite was the "harmonica rifle", a repeating blackpowder rifle capable of 5 shots.....
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