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Authorities investigating massive assassination plot by Montana militia

alledanalledan Member Posts: 19,541
edited March 2002 in General Discussion
Authorities investigating massive assassination plot by Montana militia Kalispell, Montana-AP -- Charges are expected to be filed soon in a case involving a Montana militia group and an alleged massive assassination plot.Flathead County Sheriff Jim Dupont says a group calling itself "Project Seven" was apparently planning to kill as many judges, prosecutors and police officers as possible.Officials say they found a huge cache of weapons -- including 30-thousand rounds of ammunition.Dupont says the amount of ammunition indicates "there was going to be big trouble." As he puts it, "it didn't take 30-thousand rounds of ammo to kill a turkey."He says the apparent plan was to kill enough officials to force the state to call in the National Guard.Dupont says the militia then hoped to kill enough National Guard troops to catch the federal government's attention and start a full scale escalation.It's not clear how many people belong to the group. Dupont says it was headed by a man who was arrested earlier this month after an armed standoff.
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    simonbssimonbs Member Posts: 994 ✭
    edited November -1
    Was that 30,000 LIVE rounds? Kinda makes the other guy seem like a small timer, huh?
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    offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The only thing I quarrel with in stories like this, and I do take this one seriously, is the ease with which the cops and the media add up ammo stores and make a big deal out of it. If 30 guys in a shooting association each buy a case of Wolf 7.62x39 because it's on sale through CheaperThanDirt at $69.50 per thousand, there's 30,000 rounds right there. I'm not sure what that's proof of other than the desire to get the volume discount. If I ever make the papers for some dumb infraction, they're going to at least be able to say they found "over a thousand" rounds in my home. So what? It does nothing but give the wrong impression to the non-gun-owning public. I don't reload, so I buy practice ammo in bulk, cheap.
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."[This message has been edited by offeror (edited 02-28-2002).]
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    ysacresysacres Member Posts: 294 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Can you say; Aircraft carrier on flathead lake. These dudes have a death wish. I think The taliban found out that no amount of small arms can mess with the U.S. Military.What a stupid concept to think that they could go to war with 30,000 rounds of 7.62 X 39 or whatever.
    chity chity bang bang
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    offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    By the way, this Montana militia was dumb as a box of rocks if their hope was to bring the might of the American military down on themselves on purpose. It has been proved over and over again (by such groups as Saddam's Republican Guard and the Taliban) that most people's imagination simply isn't large enough to encompass the power our military can bring to bear on an enemy. These guys don't know how lucky they are to be saved from consequences of their own stupidity.
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
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    offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    ysacres -- Whoops. You said it before I did.
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    simonbssimonbs Member Posts: 994 ✭
    edited November -1
    What a waste, though. What if these guys put all that energy into trying to change things the right way. It would have helped a lot more. Matter of fact, things like this hurt more than they help.
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    Bubba JoelBubba Joel Member Posts: 5,161
    edited November -1
    Sounds like another 'media' fabrication....
    http://www.tmorg-forums.com/
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    gunpaqgunpaq Member Posts: 4,607 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I thought that Militia groups in the United States were loyal armed civil defense type civilian organizations. Wouldn't anything else be a terrorist organization, especially one that plots the killing of U.S. citizens? Of course I'm from Pennsyltucky and don't get out much so I'm just asking.
    Pack slow, fall stable, pull high, hit dead center.
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    LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    I don't believe a word of it. Sounds like another Ruby Ridge or Waco trumped-up load of Govt. crap.With the big emphasis on national security, what a great opportunity to rout out some of these militias. Just tell a story like the one just told and all REAL Americans will back the Govt.
    Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.
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    Josey1Josey1 Member Posts: 9,598 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just as all of us with more than 5 guns in our gunsafes would be accused of having a "Deadly arsenal of assault rifles",They will say anything to justify them taking your guns away.
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    IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm going to keep my 50 lb bag of salt handy as I sift through the 'news' reports of this incident. Sounds just a little too pat. Not that Vince Foster *didn't* commit suicide and the Feebs *didn't* use flammable ordnance in Waco, etc., etc., etc.
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    offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    gunpaq --Oh no! You may have invented a new cliche, ergo: One man's terrorist group is another man's militia! Let's hope not...And yes, any group inside the U.S. and made up of U.S. citizens who uses terrorist tactics would not be a militia -- they would still be terrorists. Which is why the convicted shooter of Martin Luther King was jailed, and Tim McVey was executed.
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    offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    At the risk of taking heat here, let's also not forget that the feds were not hung out to dry for trying to investigate either the Davidians or Randy Weaver -- they were hung out to dry for grossly overreacting with violent force and probably lying about it afterward. They were chastised for killing American citizens on their own land without cause.There were charges of sex with minors and gun violations in the Waco case that probably needed to be investigated, and at the very least a gun charge (was it a sawed-off shotgun?) against Mr. Weaver. Doesn't Bruce Willis have a line in THE SEIGE something like "the military is not a surgeon's scalpel, it's a broadsword"? Trouble is, the FBI and BATF come at people with military tactics and stomp all over every human right with their big muddy boots, when all they really need to do is learn how to pick someone up for questioning with a little finnesse.
    "The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."
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    Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Not that I'm agreeing or disagreeing with what these folks were or were not planning, but keep in mind that a few fellows named Washington, Jefferson, etc. were the "terrorists" of their day. History is written by the victors, gentlemen.
    Stand And Be Counted
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    44mag44mag Member Posts: 271 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    In my opinion this whole thing is a bunch of garbage. Looks like some newspaper needed to pay a few bills and ran this story.Long Live The Montana Militia!
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    simonbssimonbs Member Posts: 994 ✭
    edited November -1
    Good point, Evil.
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    edharoldedharold Member Posts: 465 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The piece refers to the Group of Seven and refers to a Montana militia. I do not believe this is The Montana Militia, a fairly responsible group that is probably not going to off a bunch of judges and citizens.
    "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety"Benj. Franklin, 1759
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    offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Washington and Jefferson operated in the open and fought a larger uniformed standing army with comparable weapons. They were also a lot brighter than most of us. If you want to lump them with Usama and McVey, all I can say is, better you than me standing in that quicksand... Knock yourself out. But keep in mind that both winners and losers write books. History is determined down the line by more objective observers.
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    WyomingSwedeWyomingSwede Member Posts: 402 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Most of you dont know this but I am a banker by trade and a commercial/agricultural lender by profession. I have had some significant contact with both the Montana Millitia, The Posse Commitatus, and the Freemen. The leadership of these groups are craven cowards who take advantage of people who are in desperate situations and think that they have nowhere else to turn. It is not easy under any circumstances to take a mans farm, ranch or business from him. I have had some trying situations in my career. But no one held a gun to anyone's head and forced them into a bank to borrow money either. There are other remedies like bankruptcy or mediation. Threatening the bankers, judges, and LEO's who are doing their job is the last resort of people who no longer have a rational view of the situation. I have never acted any way but humanely and professionally in those situations. When I was in Northern Wyoming, I had my family threatened by a similar group. I went and had a sit down discussion with the cell leader. I gave him a little bit of my family history and our attitudes.I told him about how I would take it most personally if I found any of his boys within five miles of my place and that I would hold him personally responsible. He decided to go make his stand in Northern Montana. The leadership of these groups try to romanticize themselves by being on the "run". They suck the lifeblood out of already strained situations by draining these folks' cash for the "cause." Yes ...they are on the run...from any responsibility. They are con men and criminals. They charge $350 for a four hour class full of stuff from flag fringes to twisted views of fiat money and the Federal Reserve System. Then they start in on the IRS and conspiracy theory. They encourage otherwise good folks to commit bank fraud and felony theft by check by using counterfeit warrants(checks) drawn on an fictional account that they say that the Feds owe them. Its not the guys on the run that get hammered on this. Its the honest folks who produce goods and services for their livelyhood. They get cheated and the folks passing the warrants(check looking instruments) are the victims. The victims end up doing time. The folks with the warrants lose their hard earned goods and services. I cannot in any sense of the word compare these idiots with Jefferson or Hamilton. We do not have a perfect system by any means, but we have the most workable one of any on the planet. We have the vote and one vote can make a difference. Look at the last election, a few votes do make a difference. A minority cannot force its will on the majority...without the consent of that majority by inaction. The English philosopher Edmund Burke stated " All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." The newspaper article was just sensationalized BS. You could call Jim Dupont up in Flathead Lake right now and he would freely admit that his statements were exagerated. The reporter has to sell papers to keep his place in the world. Get used to it. I will defend any mans right to make his statements but not his right to force it upon others. Our system is not perfect but it is the best that has come along so far. And dont call these idiots patriots...cowards and leeches are more like it. Everyone in the rank and file of the groups are people in desperate financial straits. They are victims looking for a lifeline in the wrong place. You can denigrate me if you like...but I speak from experience. Walk a mile or two in my shoes. swede
    WyomingSwede
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    Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    "Washington and Jefferson operated in the open and fought a larger uniformed standing army with comparable weapons. They were also a lot brighter than most of us."Actually, they didn't graduate high school. I will grant that they were bright enough to say "enough is enough". "There are other remedies like bankruptcy or mediation. Threatening the bankers, judges, and LEO's who are doing their job is the last resort of people who no longer have a rational view of the situation."Just doing their jobs, eh? "Vee veer just folloink ordares."
    Stand And Be Counted
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    WyomingSwedeWyomingSwede Member Posts: 402 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The founding fathers first attempted protest to prove their point prior to armed force. A large segment of the population supported this view or the struggle would not have been successful. I dont see these militias with the popular support that the founding fathers had. I dont call manipulative punks patriots either. They are certainly entitled to their views, however misguided. Robert Morris, one of the first colonial bankers ...a signer of the Declaration of Independence... supported the Continental Army out of his own pocket for over two years. I dont see that support for the militia viewpoint. The Feds are not blameless in their actions at Ruby Ridge or Waco...but armed insurrection without popular support is terrorism not revolution. I don't apologize for the way I make my living. I am good at it and its how I feed my family. No one forces anyone to borrow money at gunpoint. As far as just following orders and doing my job...absolutely...thats what I get a paycheck for. Should LEO's get paid for only enforcing the laws that they personally believe in??? I hope you get my point. Don't take this as a personal attack..it is not. We have a differing viewpoint. swede
    WyomingSwede
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    Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    The founding fathers first attempted protest to prove their point prior to armed force.So have we. We've been wasting time with it for decades now, since 1968, actually.I dont see these militias with the popular support that the founding fathers had.Can someone please find out what the support percentage actually was back then? I have to run to work and I'll try to look it up when I get a free moment, but I recall it being less than 10% that supported the revolution. I could be wrong on the 10% figure, but I do know that it was a low number and certainly not the majority.Robert Morris, one of the first colonial bankers ...a signer of the Declaration of Independence... supported the Continental Army out of his own pocket for over two years. I dont see that support for the militia viewpoint.Until you're active in the militia movement, how can you tell what kind of funding we do or do not have? The Feds are not blameless in their actions at Ruby Ridge or Waco...but armed insurrection without popular support is terrorism not revolution.Not offense intended, but are you trying to tell me that because the majoritty of America has no beef with what the Feds did, that makes it okay!?No one forces anyone to borrow money at gunpoint.I wholeheartedly agree.As far as just following orders and doing my job...absolutely...thats what I get a paycheck for. Should LEO's get paid for only enforcing the laws that they personally believe in??? I hope you get my point.Actually, the answer is somewhere in the middle. You should absolutely be on the lookout for unconstitutional laws that violate the rights of the populace. That's what we pay you for. Not to burn us, kill us, shoot our children, or steal our "large amounts of cash that we must be carrying because we're drug dealers". Take no offense either, Swede. My comments aren't directly aimed at you, but rather law enforcement in general. Things are coming to a head in a hurry in our country and I'd hate to see honest men on the wrong side of the field.
    Stand And Be Counted
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    He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 50,960 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    "Until you're active in the militia movement, how can you tell what kind of funding we do or do not have?"Evil, could you or would you explain just what the militia movement is about? Most of what I have seen has been via the media. I heard some of what the Republic of Texas had to say and it seemed to me to be lunatic fringe. But, I too, have dealt with the media, so I don't know what the people really said. Would you give us a brief overview of the main points? [This message has been edited by He Dog (edited 03-01-2002).]
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    WyomingSwedeWyomingSwede Member Posts: 402 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I am not argueing with the principals of the militia movement...the contacts that I have had with them have not impressed me. Again...where do you draw the line. Do you do as Thoreau did with his civil disobedience...or take it to the next level. I feel that the glare of publicity can be the catalyst for a lot of issues from Ruby Ridge to Montana Militia. If the issues can stand an intelligent discussion...thats how you get your support. Thats how you convince the voters. If you believe in your stance...dont run around plotting in the dark of night...shout it from your rooftops and make your point to the public. Run a few of these militia candidates for local office and reform from the bottom up. I have a lot of familiarity with the militia movement. But while their may some dedicated individuals in it... the leadership that I have encountered is lessthan impressive. swede
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    Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    He-Dog:Go to www.awrm.org and you'll have all of your questions answered. Right on the main page there is a link titled "What Is The Militia?". Go there and free your mind, brother.
    Stand And Be Counted
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    Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Again...where do you draw the line. Do you do as Thoreau did with his civil disobedience...or take it to the next level.Swede:Between Waco, Ruby Ridge, and the more recent arrest of Kentucky State Militia Leader Charlie Puckett, we're sick, tired, and generally pissed off. I'm not going to say anything about "drawing a line in the sand", because doing so would quickly end with either my home being brunt down and my wife being shot in the face, or, the more pleasant alternative of being prosecuted under the new "Patriot" Act for "terrorism". If the issues can stand an intelligent discussion...thats how you get your support. Thats how you convince the voters. If you believe in your stance...dont run around plotting in the dark of night...shout it from your rooftops and make your point to the public.As we can all most certainly agree, the issues (2nd Amendment, RICO, etc.) are self-evident. We all know that gun control is bad and leads to confiscation and genocide, but what are you doing that is effective?Sure, y'all (myself included) have been writing and writing and writing to your local, state, and federal reps. What has it gotten you? More gun control, more government power over your daily lives, and absolutely zero real freedom. The public in general just doesn't care anymore. They want the safety and comfort of the Gubbermint Security Blanket. Well, I say screw that. I was born free and I'll die free. Truth be told, before my son was born, I was more of a survivalist than a Patriot. I figured that when it all came to a head, I'd just bug out to my well-stocked cabin and live out my days Mad Max-style. Well, mark my words: My son will not live that life!He will grow up free with all the rights granted to him by God and our original Constitution. He will not need to fear his government, indeed, they shall fear him. We have done everything you suggested. If we continue down that treacherous path, we will find that it becomes a dead end. By that time, it will be too late to turn back and defend ourselves. I cannot speak for the movement as a whole, but I for one have lost complete faith in our government and it's sheeple-elected officials. I'll simply wait in quiet fury until the day comes when we are prepared to take our country back.
    Stand And Be Counted
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    He DogHe Dog Member Posts: 50,960 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thanks Evil!
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    Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You betcha, bro.
    Stand And Be Counted
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    WyomingSwedeWyomingSwede Member Posts: 402 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Evil ... Interesting site. I can understand your point of view better. understand mine ... threatening ones family doesnt play in anyones book. swede
    WyomingSwede
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    Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Swede:I did not mean to say that I agreed with the part about the group gathering info on the "targets" families. I completely agree with your point, in that regard.Sorry if I gave off the wrong vibe on that issue.
    Stand And Be Counted
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    whiteclouderwhiteclouder Member Posts: 10,574 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    And I'll huff and I'll puff and I'll blow your house down.No, you won't.Clouder..
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    Evil ATFEvil ATF Member Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ???
    Stand And Be Counted
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    YankeeClipperYankeeClipper Member Posts: 669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    "When peaceful protest is impossable; Violent is inevitable" JFK
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    WyomingSwedeWyomingSwede Member Posts: 402 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke
    WyomingSwede
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    YankeeClipperYankeeClipper Member Posts: 669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You have to ask yourself why Judges can do anything they want to and we have no recourse.If they break the law the state supreme courts just change the law to accomidate the judge.Lawyers that rely on these judges to help push their agendas and cops that enforce these rulings are no better."Truly A hatred born in a Day will take 1000 years to die" - Tien Chien
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    WyomingSwedeWyomingSwede Member Posts: 402 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Judges are accountable to the electorate. They have to run and a majority vote to be retained. Less than four years ago a little eight year old girl named Kristin Lamb was raped and murdered by a sexual pervert in Powell Wyoming. This same pervert had been before the local judge twice previously on molestation charges. One charge was dismissed, the second he was given probation. That fall the judge ran again for retention...due to a groundswell of local outrage he was not retained by a majority vote. He was replaced. How can you tell me that judges are not accountable? This last week a circuit judge in Minnesota was caught embezzling from a trust fund that he was supposed to be overseeing. It had been set up by a friend of his for the good of his developmentally disabled daughter. The judge was forced out of office and will face almost certain jail time for his misdeeds. It is very easy to set back and deride the system...but if you participate in it ...it works much better. "We must all hang together...If not, we shall most assuredly hang individually."Benjamin Franklin ...After signing the Declaration of Independence.
    WyomingSwede
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    YankeeClipperYankeeClipper Member Posts: 669 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    OK Wyoming, It's your responsibility to keep us informed about the Minisota Judge.I'll bet you a good gun he does no jail time to speak of. Give me the information, I work for a company in Minneapolis.The family that had their life destroyed because of bad judge will probably not find a lot of solis in the fact that the judge lost his job.Everyone is ready to sue Doctors, why not Judges and Lawyers? J.A.I.L. is the only answer for these Judical Terrorists.
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