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offeror,I will give you the last word, following this, my last post, I must say that I've enjoyed the discussion.I am not for teaching religion in public schools, I am against teaching the religion of evolution, or humanism. And what would be the point in teaching the Bible, everybody for the most part rejects it out of hand.Concerning your understanding of the word "hear say"; Let me ask you this one thing, You have never met George Washington in person (don`t tell me your over 200 years old, please), but yet you know with assurance that he lived and died, I never met Jesus in person, but I am convinced that he lived, died and rose from the tomb. How is it, that the same history that convinces you of the personage of George Washington , you accept as gospel, and my faith in the historical Jesus is, hear say? And yet, there is more written accounts by witnesses about Jesus, through out the world, than about Geo Washington. In fact He is still written about today. Two or three witnesses is sufficient to ascertain a true and factual testimony of an account.I would be derelict in allowing you to walk away believing that we are close in what you and I believe in this discussion, we`ve engaged in.Our philosophical positions on what is considered the real crux of this matter, leaves us at different ends of a spectrum separated by a gulf, as different and opposite as day is from night, which will not allow us to even view life's issues, death and eternity in the same way.Faith in the revealed written account of Gods Word, is essential when seeking or coming to HIM, because he says of himself, "But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." (Heb 11:6)You presuppose or assume that I believe in Him only because, I believe in the historical account by which he reveals himself. There was a time when I not only didn't care about these things, but cared much less about whether the Bible was accurate or not. but like all others who have preceded me, In my hour of need, he revealed Himself to me, in a way that transformed my life forever. This is the promise of the lifting off of the veil which covers our eyes, that prevented me from seeing my Savior, for who he really is. He never claimed to be God, the scriptures reveal him as God. The Spirit of God gives this testimony.I once was, as many have stated, "a unbeliever, and didn't really know what I believed", and I also called myself a Christian; anyone that doesn't consider themselves an atheist in this country, and honestly doesn't know or understand these things considers themselves to be a Christian just because they occasionally attend some church. An honest person, that is, to say a person who is honest with himself, first would admit, that he "does not know or understand" the things of God. That would certainly, go a little way in agreeing with what the CREATOR GOD has already revealed to us about ourselves as natural men .(ICo2:14) Others on the forum are more honest when they state, I am trying to believe, but don't know; and others have said, "No matter, I would rather believe Darwin and his gaps, than believe the bible.These are more honest in that they willingly admit their ignorance, or their unwillingness to come to grips with the matter that ails all human beings, I won't believe in spite of the historical evidence is pretty definitive, and an acceptable answer, as you have stated to dismiss it all with calling it allegory, stories with no foundation is not honest, when the evidence exists. Discernment is the equation that makes faith in the impossible, possible.Your own words reveal that that you not only don't know nor understand, for, you say, that His word is a figment of someone's imagination, and hear-say, plainly rejecting it out of hand, as a fairy tale or better yet; a lie. Since you won't believe the testimony the Scriptures give concerning Jesus or his Apostles;. consider what you have been a witness to, in your generation, as living testimony of the existence of God.1. The return of Israel, as a nation among the nations of the world, first spoken of in book of Exodus , and revealed as "the apple of GODS eye".Is it by chance, that this nation, so utterly destroyed and scattered throughout all the nations of the world for more than 1900 years, once again be reestablished within the borders, delineated in the book Deuteronomy described as a land "flowing with milk and honey"?. A homeland given to their Patriarch Abraham, the same man described in the Bible as the father of many nations, referring to Israel, Arabia, Syria, Jordan, and many other middle eastern countries, who are prophesied to being envious of Israel, and their very existence, "in the latter days", and, who according to their own testimony , that they consider Abraham their father also. Is this a fable? How is it, this nation, rose from the bone heap? It was prophesized Deut 28,29,302.That this new nation should be inhabited not by just any people but The Jew, the offspring of Abraham, who were the inhabitants of this land, being brought forth from the every corner of the world, described in the Gospels as "his people" whom Jesus brought the good news to, who rejected and killed Him. Whom God made certain promises to, both as a people and a Nation, yet to be fulfilled. How could God fulfill any promises to them as a people and as a nation, if this nation didn't not exist, for there are still prophecies according to His word yet to be fulfilled, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days........He says,(Heb10-16), this day has not arrived as Israel today would revert to animal sacrifice if they could just get there hands on the temple mount, (they want to believe in the Creator God of the Bible, they have the 5 books of Moses, because God himself has put eternity in their hearts, so they still follow the Old Covenant); and again concerning this same day , when Israel will believe in Jesus as their Messiah Savior (Eph2;11, concerning the New Covenant.Is this dumb luck, or just coincidence, or, is the Nation of Israel just a figment of someone's imagination? For those who have come to share this faith in the God of the Bible, our faith in Him is based on Him delivering first on his promises to Israel, for if He does not, then WE aren't standing on a "solid Rock", and yes I would agree, WE are crazy. But thanks be to God who has revealed himself, according to HIS own Word to us, and He has given us the faith to believe, Him at his Word, and has written this account of not only His Son but all those who have preceded us into eternity, that we might be encouraged while living here and waiting for his return, according to His promises. Whose promises were made for any one who will simple believe Him at his Word."These things have I written, to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God" (1Jhn5:13)What does Wicca, or all other Allah's of the world, have to do with this.? They are the real fables, and fictional gods of men's imaginations. None of these address the creation of the heavens and earth ,man, nor the end of them and man,as told in the Bible.If I was a gambling man, I would wage odds that the Republican Party and the NRA have more God fearing people among their ranks than, atheists and agnostics. I will explain why?, in another post on this forum, the result of a little research I did while asnwering a question in another forum.The end.[This message has been edited by turbo (edited 01-31-2002).]
"...consider what you have been a witness to, in your generation, as living testimony of the existence of God."Turbo--Well spoken, and I believe that you believe it and are one of those who has studied your religion and are therefore not a "blind believer," but have done your best to be a scholar in your own belief system. I respect any person who has done that.Your statement above, which I have quoted, seems to suggest that I question that there is lots of daily evidence for the existence of God. I never said that, and that is a key clue to my point. We differ in the details, that's all. You don't need to make me or anyone else out to be a liar to believe whatever you want, and it would be irrational to do so, because there are so many with divergent views that you would have to conclude the human race was a lying race, and that they were largely crazy indeed. What I have done is tickle the tendency of some to declare one "version" is the only right one. I like to think they do it almost without knowing they're doing it, because if they do this knowingly I would have to brand them conceited and rude, given that we daily bump into all sorts of people of differing belief systems, including The Jew you made a point of. It is apparently assumed in some circles that if evolution is taught as science, it conflicts with the idea that God exists. It doesn't, of course. But it's pretty clear that there were no men for millions of years while the dinosaurs had the run of the planet, and before that when the continents were cracking apart and volcanos were spewing everywhere as the planet cooled. An inhospitable place to be, during those times, I would think. The number 7 as used in the Bible was a favorite old term for completeness, fullness, and while I'm sure they could count to 7 in those days, they had another definition for use of the word. The number 7 need not be taken literally therefore. Creation in the fullness of time is quite as satisfactory a translation, even if one is interested in taking the Old Testament literally, which is unwise, since obviously Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel were not the only four people on the planet at the start. The Bible lets that slip when it admits one of 'em left home and found a wife in another land. Hmmmmm.... I didn't mean to do this again. I was going to salute you and stop writing. I certainly have had nothing but pleasure in the discussion, or debate, or whatever this is, and not a heated word spoken. I don't even take the use of the word "liar" personally. I understand it's about the logic of the thing we are talking over.It is probably absolutely necessary for people of one faith to say of other faiths "They are the real fables, and fictional gods of men's imaginations. None of these address the creation ... as told in the Bible," as you did above. Wars in the Middle East are often fought over this very problem. And such statements are a problem, because behind them is so much conviction that men die for their right to be right.And that alone may be the biggest obstacle to the "peace on earth" we all claim to want at Christmas time. One might say that, according to the church I was brought up in, the Jews have only read half the book, the Mormon's have read one too many books, the American Indians didn't have a book, and the Muslims are reading an erroneous book. But of course, it is impolite to suggest that there is any arrogance in that, because, as the old joke goes, "we're not conceited, just convinced." Ri-i-ight.I salute your principles. I personally choose to believe a slightly less, shall we say, rigid version of spiritual history, for which there is also abundant evidence. You are mistaken when you assume I don't believe.Since you have given me the last word, I'll defer to quoting you, so the first shall be last. Let us all listen carefully to your words, and may our Higher Power bless us all in this year of defense of our freedoms:"An honest person, that is, to say a person who is honest with himself, first would admit, that he "does not know or understand" the things of God. That would certainly, go a little way in agreeing with what the CREATOR GOD has already revealed to us about ourselves as natural men."
daddo...you asked: "if we evolved from monkey's-why do we still have monkeys?" Well, here's a question...if one strain of a virus comes from another, why do we still have that original virus? It's called branching off from the smallest mutation in DNA that causes a change. And that mutation may cause another change, etc... I have a really good article that one of my professors wrote...I think I might scan it and let you all read it if I get the time. But until then, my opinion is...If you want to learn science and evolution, go to school. If you want to learn Creationism, then go to church. And by the way...there is more evidence to support evolution than there is to support creationism. You can use carbon dating to figure the years of the rock layers, which is waaaay older than what the literal translation of the bible says. This says to me that there is enough time (millions of years) for evolution to occur. It is a very realistic concept/theory. I just have trouble believeing that the earth, and all the life as it exists today, was formed in 6 days. This is just my opinion, and I am not an atheist. I would really like to believe that a devine being created the earth millions of years ago, AND evolution then took place and brought us where we are now.
Beware those that can witness the majesty of a redwood, the flower in full bloom, thebirth of a child,and still not see that something other than happenstance exists.God will never be trumped by those who through simply explanations,to his miracles,try to render them less important than they are.,
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