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Campaign Finance Reform: Silencing Freedom to Gain Power

Josey1Josey1 Member Posts: 9,598 ✭✭
edited February 2002 in General Discussion
Like to thinkyour opinion counts? Under the guise ofreforming election funding,Sen. John McCainand others are attempting tomuzzle your voiceconcerning critical national issues--including theSecond Amendment.And with the mainstream mediatrumpeting his cause,the truth isn't seeing the light of day.--Until now. Campaign finance reform--especially in the guise of S.27, the McCain-Feingold legislation that passed the Senate in April--is a direct killing attack on every individual American's First Amendment right to use political speech to protect the entire Bill of Rights.Campaign finance reform is not about big dollars influencing elections. It's not about crooked politicians and a tainted process. It's not about corruption. It is about who will control information to the electorate; with the big media and incumbent politicians having a total lock on speech, ideas and political thought in America.It is about a television/radio blackout of truth, opinions and beliefs of individual Americans who pool their power by choosing to belong to organizations such as NRA--which gives them the collective clout to reach millions of voters through paid issue advocacy.In short, campaign finance reform would put the NRA out of business when it comes to impacting Federal elections and public policy.If NRA cannot do its job in politics, then open season on the Second Amendment will follow.Real understanding of any legislation is only found in the black letter of the law. After 11 days of debate, with scores of amendments considered and many accepted, the black letter of the McCain-Feingold Act demands:That all violations of the legislation are criminal offenses calling for Federal prison sentences and steep fines. Such violations in S.27 run the gamut from numerous possible filing and paperwork errors--to placing television and radio "issue" advertisements that don't meet a government standard--to having normal lobbying discussions construed as illegal campaign "coordination" activities. Any of this could mean prison terms for officials of organizations such as the NRA and their employees simply for attempting to exercise the groups' collective First Amendment rights.A ban on broadcast, cable or satellite television and radio issue advertising by groups such as the NRA. The electronic media blackout would be enforced 60 days before a general election and 30 days before a primary election (or runoff) if the government determined that the advertising content "refers" to a Federal candidate.Massive reporting and notification of "disbursements" and "expenditures" by lobbying organizations such as NRA. This requirement is so burdensome that during a hot political year thousands of reports would have to be filed--literally by the minute on the minute. For some issue organizations, the reporting requirements alone could be impossible to meet. Again, there is criminal liability for employees of such issue organizations who fail to prepare accurate reports on exacting deadline.Meeting legal hurdles--under the guise of avoiding "coordination" with candidates--for organizations using corporate or member-donated funds. These new hurdles would make "independent expenditures" all but impossible--effectively killing the real power in grassroots political campaigns. If the government were to declare that door-to-door campaigning, phone banks, get-out-the-vote rallies or even posting yard signs were even vaguely "coordinated" with a candidate or political party, those activities could be declared illegal, making these expenditures subject to criminal prosecution. These are just the more egregious parts of the legislation in terms of shutting grassroots lobby groups out of the electoral and political processes.The fight against McCain-Feingold was led in the U.S. Senate by Kentucky Republican Mitch McConnell, who called the legislation a "target rich environment for challenge in court." Soon after Senate passage, Sen. McConnell met with a free speech coalition of which NRA is a member. Included are the American Civil Liberties Union, the Christian Coalition, the Business-Industry Political Action Committee, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, the National Right to Life Committee, the National *'n of Manufacturers and the National Rural Letter Carriers *'n. This fast-growing confederation of groups is pooling talent and resources to fight McCain-Feingold on Capitol Hill and in the courts. Unions, such as the AFL-CIO, face the same harsh "issue advocacy" restrictions and oppose S.27.Literally every nonprofit lobbying institution in the nation is affected in the same way. S.27 will silence all of the voices of all of the individuals who support virtually every cause during elections through organized "issue advocacy." With the potential opposition of every lobbying organization in the nation, how did McCain-Feingold ever see the light of day on the floor of the Senate?S.27 will silence all of the voicesof all of the individuals whosupport virtually every causeduring elections throughorganized "issue advocacy." First, John McCain (R-Ariz.) emerged from the last Presidential election as the candidate of choice for the national media. They are his following--his fawning constituency.Given to savoring that power and a pulpit that reaches a majority of the nation, free of charge, every night and every morning, on the tube and in print, McCain has emerged as a media-styled super-power.Which leads to the second reason campaign finance reform eclipsed everything in the Senate for nearly two weeks in March and April--the 50-50 split between Democrats and Republicans and the "power-sharing" agreement that resulted.In the Senate, power-sharing means that nothing gets done without consensus. But in reality, the Democrats--who are far more aggressive--are often running things, especially if they can get the super-senator to swing their way.McCain was led down a primrose path by a Senate Democratic leadership that is doing all it can to keep him beholden. In reality, it is pushing to derail President George W. Bush's chance for a second term. And more importantly, it wants a Senate majority of radical Democrats. And that would prove an unprecedented threat to the Second Amendment. John McCain is its Judas goat--leading the sheep to slaughter.McCain's relationship with the Democratic leadership paid off when he demanded to bring his campaign finance bill directly to the floor. By doing so, McCain short-circuited the entire normal, deliberative hearing process. Not one word of testimony in the first Senate session of the 107th Congress was heard on campaign finance reform. Not one ordinary American appeared in support or opposition to this legislation. That blackout of public comment was McCain's ace in the hole.Groups that would have coalesced to fight this legislation simply didn't have the time to energize their troops. The flurry of confusing "reform" amendments made oppressive bill language even worse. The final bill that emerged, after a 59-41 roll call vote April 2, is as dangerous an affront to liberty as anyone could imagine.For all lobbying organizations, what this legislation actually does must be viewed in the worst sense of practice and enforcement. For the NRA, imagine New York Senator Chuck Schumer as U.S. Attorney General in a future administration, with the power to prosecute his choice of victims with hordes of lawyers at his disposal. Keep in mind that every violation in McCain-Feingold is a Federal crime, many with five-year-prison terms and heavy fines.Take for example the question of "coordination." Under current law, a nonprofit lobby such as NRA's Institute for Legislative Action can spend an unlimited amount of money in a political campaign for grassroots mailings to members; advertising directed at the public in general (issue advocacy); operating phone trees, or organizing volunteers, etc. NRA-ILA bears the costs of virtually all grassroots work from its headquarters and in the field.The unregulated funds that pay for these activities under McCain-Feingold are called "soft money," which is nothing more than funds donated to NRA-ILA by individual Americans--mostly members--who support the NRA's preservation of the Second Amendment."Hard money," on the other hand, is the Federally regulated money that comprises direct contributions and in-kind contributions to candidates or parties. For organizations such as NRA-ILA, contributions can total no more than $5,000 per election, and must be given through its political action committee (PAC), the NRA Political Victory Fund. The same goes with in-kind contributions--services that are done in direct cooperation with a candidate, committee or party. And "hard money" must be raised separately and only from individual donors who are limited to how much they can give a PAC.The line between a coordinated campaign with hard money limits and an independent expenditure campaign under existing law is very clear. Organizations such as NRA follow the law assiduously, because it is unambiguous.McCain-Feingold redefines all of the rules and all of the definitions with respect to "coordination"--with the effect being that it would be virtually impossible to avoid crossing the line.A lobbyist who does his or her job and meets with a candidate on key issues could be charged with "coordination." Say, the lobbyist talks to a member of Congress about Project Exile--enforcing the armed violent felon provision of Federal firearms law--and the incumbent candidate embraces the concept in his campaign: That would be taken as "coordination."You can't think of an adthat NRA could runthat an anti-firearms-rightsAdministration wouldn't ban. And who decides?Some Federal bureaucrat. The standard for what constitutes "coordination" is impossible to meet. A normal independent expenditure, say, a get-out-the-vote rally with NRA President Charlton Heston, Executive Vice President Wayne LaPierre and NRA-ILA Executive Director Jim Baker, could be construed as coordinated with a candidate if any one of the three had talked to the candidate or anybody connected with the candidate--or even with somebody with the candidate's national party. That would mean that every NRA activity remotely connected to that rally could not exceed a total cost of $5,000--and then only if NRA's PAC had not already given regulated cash or hard money. All the spending over and above that $5,000 maximum would be illegal.Under the McCain-Feingold Act, the folks who wrote the checks, and Mr. Heston, Mr. LaPierre and Mr. Baker--as officers of the NRA--would be open to prosecution. How could you prove an NRA member mailing in support of a friendly Federal candidate was not coordinated if the standard were, "at the request or suggestion of, or pursuant to any general or particular understanding with, such candidate, the candidate's authorized political committee, or their agents, or a political party committee or its agents?" That covers the political universe, and would kill grassroots electoral participation.This is clearly an attack on the First Amendment right of association. The McCain-Feingold outright ban on issue advertising on any television or radio medium is just as crazy.As introduced in January, McCain-Feingold exempted groups such as NRA-ILA and PACs. It was divide and conquer. The notion among "reform" strategists was to take a step at a time--exempt groups such as NRA now, and come back for them later.That thinking was shattered when Sen. Paul Wellstone (D-Minn.) roared in with an amendment placing issue advocacy groups and PACs squarely under the heel of McCain-Feingold's all-smothering strictures.Specifically mentioning NRA, Wellstone told the Senate that "perhaps over $100 million was spent by independent groups trying to influence Federal elections with sham ads during the 2000 cycle ... More than 70 percent of these sham electioneering ads sponsored by groups are attack ads that denigrate a candidate's image or character as opposed to 2 percent, the good news, of the candidate-sponsored ads" (emphasis added)."Any group, any organization, any individual can finance any kind of ad they want" (emphasis added).Nobody could misunderstand Wellstone or what he was talking about--silencing independent political voices he disagrees with. Wellstone's words take what others argue as a "slippery slope" to the extreme. His amendment is the first step off a cliff.Because the ban on broadcast ads is triggered by the phrase--"refers to a clearly identified candidate for Federal office"--McCain-Feingold is so dangerously all-inclusive that virtually any advertisement or communication aired by any issue advocacy group during the 30- and 60-day campaign blackout periods would be banned.An NRA ad, run in New York, that presents a purely intellectual treatment of the Second Amendment--without any specific reference to a candidate--in an election where gun control is an issue, could easily be construed as "referring" to a candidate. The NRA is for the Second Amendment--candidate Chuck Schumer wants to get rid of it. Blackout.An ad for Eddie Eagle, in an election where "gun safety" is an issue, could be construed as obliquely "referring" to a candidate. NRA is for gun safety. So is candidate X. Blackout.You can't think of an ad that NRA could run that an anti-firearms-rights administration wouldn't ban. And who decides? Some Federal bureaucrat. And running an unapproved ad could mean criminal prosecution and heavy fines under the Brave New World of John McCain and Russ Feingold (D-Wisc.).Except for the criminal penalties, the crushing McCain-Feingold stricture on expenditure of funds that affect political speech is identical in concept and intent to Federal campaign spending laws that the United States Supreme Court declared unconstitutional in 1976.That case--Buckley v. Valeo (424 U.S. at 1)--has been cited in at least 20 lower court decisions upholding the principle that money spent in the exercise of free political speech is essential to free speech itself. Buckley declared that laws regulating money spent for "issue advocacy" served to "prohibit all individuals who are neither candidates nor owners of institutional press facilities, from voicing their views" (emphasis added). The language struck down by Buckley was virtually identical to McCain-Feingold.So where is the media? Where are those who piously practice their part of the First Amendment? The big boys among them love McCain-Feingold. Destruction of someone else's free speech is more power to them.The print media love it, because the ban on broadcast issue ads will simply mean more ad revenue in their pockets. And the network news--which considers its function as "gatekeeper" of all information--loves it because they are specifically exempted from S.27. What they really want is to be the only broadcast influence on voters during elections.Senator Phil Gramm (R-Texas) warned of other consequences of McCain-Feingold on the American political process: "If we limit the power of people to spend their money, we strengthen the power of people who exert influence in other ways. We don't reduce power. We don't reduce whatever corruptive influence may exist among the people who want to influence government. We simply take power away from some people and, by the very nature of the system, we give it to somebody else."McCain-Feingold was a sneak attack, and that only works once.House Majority Whip Tom DeLay thinks it can be stopped, and the Texas Republican Congressman will be tireless in his opposition. The dynamic in the House is entirely different from the "power-sharing" of the Senate. And the House rules are much more difficult to short-circuit.So where is the media?Where are those who piouslypractice their part of theFirst Amendment?The big boys among them loveMcCain-Feingold. Destruction of someoneelse's free speech ismore power to them. Still, the big-media spin machine keeps repeating the mantra that campaign finance reform has passed the House in previous sessions, but, in truth, it moved with the total assurance that it would die in the then Republican-dominated Senate. For some who voted for the concept in the past, it was a throw-away vote for the benefit of "progressive" supporters. Now--with a real vote--the outcome could be different.And the House is beginning to hear from the very grassroots voters McCain-Feingold would silence. When the e-mail, snail-mail and telephone calls really begin to arrive in staggering numbers, the political atmosphere in the House will change. But only then.The irony of ironies--in the mess that John McCain has personally dumped on the American people--is that in McCain's own view he admits that what he wants to fix may not actually be broken, referring to what he calls "the abundant evidence of at least the appearance of corruption." Appearance ain't good enough.In his opening statement for the long floor debate McCain said, "Do I believe that any law will prove effective over time?"No, I do not."Were we to pass this legislation today, I am sure that at some time in the future, hopefully many years from now, we will need to address some new circumvention."The system isn't broken, and John McCain's fix will only serve to destroy it. http://www.nraila.org/Articles.asp?FormMode=Detail&ID=60

Comments

  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I can't read all of it, I'm sick now.
    If you want my guns you will have to kill me first. I was born free and to take that from me you better be ready to fight.
  • Gordian BladeGordian Blade Member Posts: 1,202 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    7mm, I know you're south of the Mason-Dixon and I'm north (in my heart, even if I move south). But as long as the issue is truly freedom, I'm with you guys. I'm very sad that so many people would even consider this in the name of some kind of abstract political "fairness". I hate to think we Yankees saved the Union just to see both the 1st and 2nd Amendments flushed down the toilet. Not to mention the 4th and 5th.
  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't know what to think. I grew up lovin the USA, seein the President on tv used to be a big deal, now I hesitate to look. I just get so confused as to why these people want to do this. What will they gain by turning us into subjects. They already have more power than we can ever imagine. It is sad and infuriating to see this. Josey, you are starting to get like the mail man, not sure if I want to see what you have for us each day! You give us good news than slam our ego's with this. Ohh well , guess we need to hear it.READ MY SIGNATURE. I MEAN IT. UNTIL YOU PROVE ME AS A CRIMINAL, DON'T TRY TO DISARM ME. DON'T TRY TO STIFLE WHAT I HAVE TO SAY ABOUT YOU(SPEAKING TO ALL ANTI AMERICAN POLITICIANS). I WILL FIGHT. I WILL DEFEND MY FREEDOM GUARANTEED BY THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. YOU WILL KILL ME, THIS MUCH I KNOW. I CAN NEVER FIGHT OFF AN ATTACK BY YOU, I WOULD RATHER DIE THAN TO GIVE IN TO YOU MCCAIN. OR ANYONE ELSE LIKE YOU. YOU CAN HAVE MY GUNS WHEN YOU PRY THEM FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS. I AM AN AMERICAN CITIZEN. I AM FREE. IF YOU DON'T LIKE ME BEING FREE, GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY. I WILL DEFEND MY FREEDOM TO THE DEATH.
    If you want my guns you will have to kill me first. I was born free and to take that from me you better be ready to fight.
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    We are in trouble.
    Happiness is a warm gun
  • mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Last night I saw, for the FIRST time on TV, someone who was pointing out the fact that campaign finance reform will stifle independent groups ability to voice their opinions on candidates. I'd never heard anyone go into that on TV before. It was always "soft money" this and "hard money" that. That's a bogus ploy. Money can't corrupt anyone who isn't willing to be corrupted. The Campaign Finance Reform Bill is nothing more than a means to keep the incumbents in office by stifling any descent.I wrote my Senators, Bobby Byrd (the impoverished) and Rocky Rockefeller (the far from impoverished) about campaign finance reform and got a reply from Rocky. He said,(and I paraphrase), that campaign finance reform was the greatest thing he'd ever fought for.Byrd doesn't respond to his constituents. At least not to anyone I've talked to. By the way...did you ever see anything as childish as the "I was poorer than you" thing he got into with O'Neill last week. The dude is senile.Mudge the politico
    I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS![This message has been edited by mudge (edited 02-12-2002).]
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Mudge- I saw some of that. O'Neill was this close(I have my thumb and finger an inch apart) to pointing out BYRDS illustrious carreer in the KKK. I wish someone would call that "white *(his words, not mine)" on his past.Of course, the media is mumb on that little bit of history.
    Happiness is a warm gun
  • thebutcherthebutcher Member Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Senator Byrd has the highest percentage of black people on staff than any other senator. Everyone seems to think that he gets a ride because he is a democrat. He gets a free ride because in the last 20 years, he has voted for civil rights bills almost 100% of the time. When a pol calls someone Barney Fag, and has a reputation for voting against homosexual rights, it is more probable for him to be called a bigot. Taking Byrd's words out of context is ludicrous. In fact, it is exactly why people want campaign finance reform, because they all lie, they all cheat, and they all get bought off.
    The definition of an "expert":An "X" is an unknown quantity and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    BUTCHER- What homosexual rights are you talking about??!! Is that how you justify the media ignoring Robert Byrds "White *" comment, but spent weeks editorializing, and front paging the "Barney Fag" statement?Show me ONE thing that Dick Armey did, to infringe on the rights of homosexuals. ONE THING! And I am not talking about giving homosexuals some type of preferential treatment. I am refering to any comment or legislation that would have taken away rights from homosexuals, that all other americans have.I suppose because Armey does not think that homosexuals should have rights and "superequal protections" that the rest of America doesnt have, I guess that makes him a homophobe.ROBERT BYRD WAS A KKK MEMBER FOR GOODNESS SAKE! NOTHING DICK ARMEY EVER DID EVEN COMES CLOSE TO THAT!
    Happiness is a warm gun
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    ...And one other thing BUTCHER-"they all lie, they all cheat, they all steal, and they all get bought off." Could you explain exactly how restricting people from donating money will prevent that? It wont. The only thing that could prevent that, is if people stop voting for liars cheaters and stealers. It is all in the electorates hands-AND THE ELECTORATE DOES NOT CARE!! So explain how restricting the amount of money someone can give a candidate will prevent those things.How 'bout full disclosure? Wouldnt that be enough. Full dislosure would allow people to know who gave what to who. Nothing unconstitutional about that. But guess what? People still wont do their homework and find out these things, because people DO NOT CARE. Hey, why not just raise taxes, and have political campaigns publicly funded? Ill bet you love that solution!So explain Butcher, exactly what campaign finance reform is going to accomplish?
    Happiness is a warm gun
  • thebutcherthebutcher Member Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'll answer as best as I can.Dick Armey does not believe that homosexuals should be a protected class. He voted against legislation that would make it illegal to fire someone based solely on their sexual preference. I consider that worse than a "white *" comment.As far as CFR goes this is my philosophy. If corporation x gives a candidate $10,000 through the DNC or RNC or a PAC, and then legislation comes through affecting such corporation, a lobbyist goes and says a yea vote will mean that we double contribution and a nay vote means we halve it. We are no longer talking about campaign contributions, we are talking about bribes.Campaign donations should be restricted to individuals only. No labor unions, no corporations.
    The definition of an "expert":An "X" is an unknown quantity and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Do you also consider that worse than being a member of the KKK?Perhaps Dick Armey was voting "against" government involvement where it does not belong. Usually that is the case with conservatives who vote against more government control. And the good ole left portrays any type of vote against "progressive" legislation, legislation that gives the government more control, as a vote for rascism, homophobia, etc..I do not know why homosexuals, or any other group should be classified as "special citizens". "equal protection" does not mean "better than equal protection".And finally, why do you think that congress can usurp the first amendment. It says specifically that congress cannot make laws with respect to speech. So why is it OK for them to violate that?One more thing-What exactly is campaign finance going to accomplish?
    Happiness is a warm gun
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry I forgot. You feel that only individuals should be allowed to donate money? So I guess you feel that groups like the NRA, NOW,Right to life organizations, so called "abortion rights" organizations, should not be allowed to exercise their rights guaranteed to them in the 1st amendment.
    Happiness is a warm gun
  • thebutcherthebutcher Member Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't see how it is super-protection to say that you can't fire someone on the basis of their race, religion, disability, or sexual origin. Please explain. I can't fire you for being straight or white either.And I don't think anyone should be restricted in what they say. If the NRA wants to run Bush ads on the morning of an election I believe they should be able to. But the decision that money=speech was a bad one and donations to a political campaign are bribes, not speech.CFR will reduce the bribes. After the SC throws out the advertising amendment (which by the way was only supported by 3 democrats but passed because of 49 republicans voting for it) it won't restrict anyone's speech.
    The definition of an "expert":An "X" is an unknown quantity and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.
  • Big Sky RedneckBig Sky Redneck Member Posts: 19,752 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I'm not educated as well as some others on here, I'm not cable of making sound arguments or making political speeches but I'll tell you what an undereducated hick see's in this. Mccain is covering his *. he has come to be a devil in disguise. He is a snake, a back stabbing piece of filth who will hide behind his political affiliation to justify himself. he and other crooked politicians know that negative campaining against himself will surley stifle their careers in politics. So they may continue raping the constitution they use this and disguise it as good to keep the NRA or other groups from advertising the evil they have done and get them booted out of office.
    If you want my guns you will have to kill me first. I was born free and to take that from me you better be ready to fight.
  • mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    McPain was on O'Reilly last night and admitted that the advertising ban in the CFR bill COULD be unconstitutional. Quite an admission for him.Like I said in my previous post....MONEY WILL ONLY CORRUPT THOSE WHO ARE WILLING TO BE CORRUPTED! However....Some of those who claim they "can't be corrupted" simply haven't had their price met yet.Mudge the cynic
    I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS!
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    If they are really bribes, as you say, arent their laws on the books to deal with that.I would like to see you clarify that algebra problem of yours(if X votes this way, Y will give him Z, but if X votes the other way, Y will only give him half of Z). If this situation is as rampant as you clearly believe, I certainly think bribery cases could be brought against X and Y, but I do not think they exist to the extent that we have to turn the first amendment on its head. And if there are such dealings, how 'bout full dislosure? One would think, that if these problems were so detrimental to our country,but were not illegal, the electorate would VOTE THEM OUT OF OFFICE. BUT GUESS WHAT? THE ELECTORATE DOES NOT CARE ABOUT THESE LITTLE PET ISSUES OF THE SOCIALIST DEMOCRATS. But as they always do, the democrats have to fix these things for our own good, because we are blind to their wisdom. Thank god anti-constitutionalists are out there fixing all of those things the writers of the constitution missed.
    Happiness is a warm gun
  • thebutcherthebutcher Member Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    There are laws against bribery. You can't take a senator out for a $100 dinner. You can contribute $10,000 to his PAC because otherwise you infringe on free speech. Where is the logic in that?Banning ads is unconstitutional. Stopping bribery isn't.
    The definition of an "expert":An "X" is an unknown quantity and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    If it is bribery, they should be prosecuted. But donating money to a candiddate who represents you interests(and that is really what they are doing, notwithstanding the whining of the anti first amendment gang)is not bribery. And once again, if these skunk politicians are accepting money that is questionable(though legal) in the eyes of the electorate, then the electorate has the ultimate power-they do not vote for them.But because the electorate for the most part, does not care about the issues that the anti 1st amendment crowd cares for, the anti first crowd has to create laws to get around the concerns of the electorate.Look at how the socialists whine about the environment. And in order to further their environmental agenda, they try to portray certain businesses as anti-environment, and then extend it to the politicians who support these businesses by saying these politicians are only voting that way because of donations received by those businesses.The leftists whine about the environment, whine about the businesses who they claim are detrimental to the environment, and then whine about donations their political adversaries receive from these businesses who are supposedly destroying the environment. They do all of this whining, hoping to influence the electorate, so that the electorate will vote for those who are the "good guys". But the electorate does not bite,because the electorate sees the whiny leftists for what they are, so now the little * socialists have to create laws that will infringe on the rights of "all" americans, because they are not getting the results they want through the ballot box.This is classic behavior from the leftist gang.When they cant get what they want through legislation, they find other ways-ie civil suits.When they cant get voters to see their way, they create campaign finance laws to stifle their opponents.
    Happiness is a warm gun
  • mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Any money given to a candidate is, in effect, a "bribe". You are giving to this particular campaign because the candidate reflects many of your views. Your are hoping this person gets elected so your views will be put forth. Whether it's $1 or $100,000, it's still, in essence, a "bribe".IMHOMudge the politico
    I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS!
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    MUDGE- I do not see that as a bribe. A bribe is money given to influence a decision. Giving money to someone who reflects your beliefs, because you want him in office because he reflects your beliefs, does not equate to a bribe.
    Happiness is a warm gun
  • thebutcherthebutcher Member Posts: 374 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Two points. One, the NRA is notorious for directly linking votes with money. That is a bribe. Second concerns the environment. I live across the street from a lake. We now can only eat one fish per month out of that lake. The reason? Coal plants in West Virginia, Ohio, and PA. Now, what RIGHT do politicians in Ohio have to pass laws which determine the quality of my drinking water in MA? They don't.
    The definition of an "expert":An "X" is an unknown quantity and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.
  • salzosalzo Member Posts: 6,396 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    So you are saying that pro gun voters vote pro gun because the NRA entices them with money?I guess you automatically assume from my post, that I think ALL environmental legislation is wacko. Typical. Anytime someone opposes some environmental legislation, they become "environment haters."Could you explain why it is that corporations,pacs, etc., should not be allowed to contribute money, but the every day Joe on the street should be allowed to? I know leftists do not like to talk about this, but big business is what keeps this merry go 'round of a country going. Business is the main factor with respect to the economy. I know that leftists think taking money from the people is what keeps the economy moving, but it is not. So the point is, why, if they are responsible and influential in the countries well being, why should they be prohibited from expressing themselves through donations into the political arena? Keep going after big business, and youull see this country go down the drain. So business keeps us on top, but they should not be allowed to participate in elections. I guess it is only those who are a "drain" on society should be allowed to contribute(gee, I wonder what political party would benefit the most from that)But that brings me to my next point; If politicians were not allowed to collect the money from these cash cows, how are they supposed to pay for their campaigns. They are not going to be able to support a campaign on individual contributions.I have an idea. Congress should require newspapers, television, radio, bill board owners, any type of advertising or media medium to give politicians FREE ad space. Now that would be funny. After taking those same businesses out of the political game, and given them no voice, you could then force them to give free services to the government.
    Happiness is a warm gun
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