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9mm vs 45cal. Does it Matter?

RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
edited July 2002 in General Discussion
I was at the Gun Store Yesterday and the owner made a comment that I thought I would post here. The Owner said that there really isn't much difference between a 9mm and a 45cal. because of the Devastating Ammo made today. That 9mm and 45cal. are Equal because of this.

I tend to agree with this. I own several 9mm's and a 45cal. and therefore try not to be Bias on the Issue. I don't think a lot of People will agree with me but "Che Sara, Sara".

What do You Think about This?

Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
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Comments

  • Richie RichRichie Rich Member Posts: 439 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Rugerniner, I read a article in the big issue of a mag. that does the "one stop shot" coparo's and a .40 was first a 357 was 2nd, 45 was 3rd and 4th, a 9 was fifth. The 45 had 2 top 5's. the type of ammo and bullet grains play a big part, for example the 40 was a 155 hydro shok 97%, 357 a 125 jhp, 45 3rd a 230 grn hydro shok, 45 4th a 185 grn golden sabre+p, the 9 was 115 grn jhp +p. these 5 rounds were all 93% and up one shot stops. They do say that shorter barrels should use a lighter hp.I guess the thing that seperates the two would be energy foot pounds which the 45 would win hands down on the nine. Good luck and hope the info helps.
    ps I carry a 45
    Rich

    Remember,"your woman may not find you handsome, But atleast she'll find ya handy". I love that show..............
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  • TazmuttTazmutt Member Posts: 862 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I agree that both rounds are more than sufficient to stop an aggressor but the fact will never change that a 45 has more "knock down power" aka ft/lbs of energy than the 9mm. The 9 IS a snotty little round, I love it and would depend on it in crisis situation.
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  • E.WilliamsE.Williams Member Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I had read somewhere that the .357 magnum had a 98% OSS.That is what I trust the most.But I have never cared much for 9mm though I definately wouldnt want to get shot by one but out of the 2 I would rather be on the grip end of a .45acp.

    Eric S. Williams
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  • sfettysfetty Member Posts: 349 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Shot placement is a more determining factor than caliber selection. A well placed 9mm 124gr.JHP is more effective than a misplaced 230gr JHP .45ACP round. Never rely on ballistics for caliber selection without first practicing with the firearm and caliber you have selected. I would rather take my chances, if I had to, with an untrained bad guy with a .45 than a highly trained bad guy carrying a .22 pistol.
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    All things being equal, a bigger hole bleeds out faster and a heavier bullet delivered at the same speed hits harder. But of course all things are not equal. The opening post quotes a gun dealer's generalization, the following post gives the standard response about bullet weight, expansion, velocity, and temporary cavity. Then there's the term "energy dump." Perforation is less effective than impact. Then we have the rather persuasive foot-pounds of energy input. I tend to agree with that the most. We know that one reason the .32 and .380 are marginal has to do with smaller number of ft-lbs. We know that a round as small as the .22 can actually skip off the skull like a stone and slide around the head under the scalp rather than penetrate the bone.

    The most accurate information I've seen on this suggests that the 9mm is very effective IF the round is the 115 gr. hollowpoint delivered at over 1000 fps. The .357 is a primo stopper IF the round is the 125 gr. delivered at 1250-1300, and so forth. The term "big and slow" no longer necessarily applies, except in the case of the .44 Special which is traditionally loaded so as not to blow up older cowboy style revolvers. The .45 ACP has always been a military round and was limited to round nose more becase they fed more reliably in old style autos than any other reason. Now that we have .45 in HP and going faster thanks to Peter Pi's CorBon and other companies making rounds with better ballistics, I'll give the edge to the bigger bullets, because the 9mm is still sensitive to the type of ammunition used for its full effectiveness.

    I'd have to say I feel better with a .40, a .357, a .44 SP, or a .45 ACP on average than I do with anything smaller and if I do carry a 9 I will go with the recommended hi-vel ammo in the 115 gr. weight. I will only own a 9 again if I want a particular gun, not because I choose the caliber. Even the Hi-Power is now available in .40, and unless I felt tradition-bound to pick the 9mm (or got a great deal on one), I'd probably feel better buying even the Hi-Power in .40.

    Having said that, I fully realize that one's chances of survival are greater if shot with lesser rounds than the 9. Even the .380 well placed can be a serious thing, for sure. But if you watch enough medical shows you begin to realize that in the emergency room, the damage of the bigger, more powerful rounds are often harder to deal with and therefore more deadly in general. A lot of people shot with 9s go home.

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
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  • sfettysfetty Member Posts: 349 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Offeror, I certainly do agree with everything you said. However, I have seen far too many people with carry permits carrying large caliber handguns for the very reasons you mentioned and rightfully so, but couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with the darned thing.

    Whenever I see a post about caliber effectiveness posted, I always have to stress the importance of practicing with whatever firearm and caliber is chosen. With that being said, you just can't hardly beat a 230gr JHP .45ACP Federal Hydra-Shok.
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Good lord. Well, if you have so little money for guns that you keep the first one you buy, you might get stuck with one you can't handle. As for me, I have shot a number of calibers and a number of brands, and I can group my shots in the silhouette's chest very reliably. I only know this because I have been to the range and practiced with the ammo I carry, including Hydra-Shok and CorBon. Not to do so would be very unwise indeed. I would not advise carrying a gun until one CAN reliably and with regularity put his or her shots in the "boiler room." If one can't do this, one should opt for a smaller caliber until one can.

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
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  • Shootist3006Shootist3006 Member Posts: 4,171
    edited November -1
    quote: 9mm vs 45cal. Does it Matter
    YES, it does matter!

    As several have stated above, a bigger hole does more damage than a small one.

    Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis
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  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Not one person addressed the Issue!

    The Subject of the Thread was about the Devastation of Ammo made Today making the difference between 9mm and 45cal Marginal and if anybody agreed . Of course a 45cal. makes a bigger hole. A 50cal. makes a bigger hole than a 45cal.

    357., 22's and 40cal. don't enter into the subject.

    Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!

    Edited by - RugerNiner on 07/25/2002 07:51:24
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
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  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Member Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    As long as the bullet expands there isnt a bunch of difference. However, since hp's DO have a tendancy to fill up on clothing, effectivly making it a RN solid, I go with the 45. Even if the bullet pretends to be a solid, its a bigger hole.

    Those people who see nothing but grey areas, no black and white, are lost in the fog.
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  • 4GodandCountry4GodandCountry Member Posts: 3,968
    edited November -1
    Shot placement is the most critical aspect in any gunfight, the only way most experts will recommend a 9mm over a 45ACP is if you cannot control the 45ACP. Most experts tell their people to carry the largest caliber they can handle. I would personally choose the 45ACP but if I had a 9mm, which I don't, I would still feel comfortable with that.

    When Clinton left office they gave him a 21 gun salute. Its a damn shame they all missed....
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  • NighthawkNighthawk Member Posts: 12,022 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Every one has their preference the 9mm is under rated Federal has developed a 130gr Premium Defense round that ups the aggie ballisticly any way.Shot placement will always be the most important part of self defense.


    Best!!

    Rugster
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ruger --
    I think we are addressing your point, but you may not be getting the answer you wanted. The truth is, if you shoot two expanding bullets of different diameters, and both expand reliably, the bigger bullet will expand to a larger size than the smaller expanded bullet. So even with your dealer's concept of modern hollowpoint technology, a bigger bullet is still a bigger bullet. And .45s are loaded hotter than they used to be, so the "big and slow" theory has less relevance as well. And the bigger heavier round still has more foot-pounds of energy to dump in the perpetrator. But, I'm sure it sounded like a good idea at the time.....

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878

    Edited by - offeror on 07/25/2002 17:15:16
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  • Shootist3006Shootist3006 Member Posts: 4,171
    edited November -1
    ruger, a great number of people did respond and did address the issue. Given the increase in effectiveness of today's expanding bullets, the .45 STILL makes a larger hole. If a modern hollow point expands 2X the original diameter then a 9mm will make a hole that is 0.71 inches in diameter BUT a .45 will make a hole of 0.902 inches. A nearly 30% increase in wound channel is not a 'marginal' difference but a significant advantage.

    Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis
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  • LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    I had a guy tell me once that a 9mm wouldn't even penetrate heavy clothing. I offered to prove him wrong after he got into some insulated coveralls and a leather jacket, but he declined.

    If I shoot someone with my 9mm Glock, loaded with my usual 115 gr. +P jacketed hollowpoints, they ain't gettin' up.

    Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.
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  • Matt45Matt45 Member Posts: 3,185
    edited November -1
    All things considered I think the 9mm is a great range pistol, and a defensive weapon, IN A LAST DITCH SCENARIO.

    I'd still much rather have a .45, and carry that caliber for that reason. As far as ammo making up the difference, 115Gr JHP +P's do make up for a lot of the standard 9mm shortcomings, but if I have to shoot someone, I don't want the SOB to EVER get up. I want the relative comfort of being able to be slightly off target in a stressful situation and knock the agressor down, hence my love for the knock down power of the .45ACP, no matter if it's ball, JHP or what.

    Another big part of this, (and this covers both sides of the coin), is the need to practice Mozabique drills (2 in the chest, 1 in the head), this is critical for anyone who carries a pistol defensively and/or may find themselve in a gunfight, no matter what the caliber.

    Reserving my Right to Arm Bears!!!!
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  • homer4homer4 Member Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    ...big difference.

    "...Abby someone""Abby who"..."Abby Normal"
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  • cbxjeffcbxjeff Member Posts: 17,643 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Guys, I'm no expert but I know a little about energy. The term "knock down power" has been mentioned. Both rounds will produce a good size wound especially with newer HP rounds. The bad guys will bleed and hurt like hell, but that 45 will actually knock the person to the ground. Men can walk/stumble toward you as the life is pouring out of them, but they rarely will get off the ground and attack again.

    Just what I have learned from LEO and Mil friends over the years.

    cbxjeffIt's too late for me, save yourself.
    It's too late for me, save yourself.
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  • lokdok1lokdok1 Member Posts: 383 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I remember reading a while ago that between the two rounds, 45ACP and 9mm, that the 45 delivers more of a whollop to the central nervous system than the 9mm. Wasn't that a determining factor for the militarys switch to the 45ACP?


    Bartman
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  • daddodaddo Member Posts: 3,408
    edited November -1
    A well placed shot with a 9mm will be as deadly as a not so well placed shot with a .45.
    One issue here is carrying, and what I mean is, if I had to carry a heavy .45 around all day, I would eventually leave it home more than not and would be therefore unarmed. However; a smaller lighter 9mm semi. can be carried without much trouble and I would most likely have it with me all the time.
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  • interstatepawnllcinterstatepawnllc Member Posts: 9,390
    edited November -1
    Size ALWAYS matters,.......just ask the 9mm. BTW, it's que sera sera
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  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    interstatepawnllc;
    quote:que sera sera
    Is French
    quote:Che Sara, Sara
    Is Italian

    lokdok1;
    The Military went from 45cal. to 9mm not the other way around.

    Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    And Che Guevera, was Latino.

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
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  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    "I am not interested in dry economic socialism. We are fighting against misery, but we are also fighting against alienation. One of the fundamental objectives of Marxism is to remove interest, the factor of individual interest, and gain, from men's psychological motivations. Marx was preoccupied both with economic factors and with their repercussions on the spirit. If communism isn't interest in this too, it may be a method of distributing goods, but it will never be a revolutionary way of life."

    Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
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  • offerorofferor Member Posts: 8,625 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    daddo --
    I don't think size/weight is much of an issue anymore. There are big 9s still being introduced for some reason, and small .45s like the new Chief's Special, Taurus PT145, compact Glock in single or double stack, etc. Practically every gun made for the 9mm is also made in .40, so there's still no reason not to go to a bigger caliber and better stopper anyway, unless you really handle a smaller, less recoiling round better -- in which case, stick with the 9 in a Kel-Tec 11, I guess. But I have .45s that are no problem, nada, to carry all day, while I sure wouldn't want a Beretta 92 or a USP in 9mm hanging off me all day (no offense, Beretta boys). In fact, I have had the problem you address, and I have gone to smaller and smaller guns until I finally have small enough big bores that they are eminently carry-able all the time, and I mean ALL the time, among them the old classic Star PD, and a new Taurus PT145 which I swear fits most of my Glock 27/26 holsters perfectly. That's hard to beat. And I still have my G27 stoked with CorBon or Hydra-Shok. Pick up one of those perennial gun magazines with the reference section in the back -- they always have the handgun weights listed, and I think you will find that there is no longer an absence of lightweight .45s. You may have had a point a few years ago, but even then there were alloy .45s in compact sizes, the only difference was they were single stack and the law hadn't yet stolen the 9's hi-cap advantage. Nowadays, even the little PT145 can carry 10 rounds of .45 in that G27 holster, so what am I missing out on?

    Don't take this as criticism of the 9; I'm simply saying there's no real reason not to carry the .45 except personal preference, any longer. Either you like the round better, or you like a particular brand of gun and are limited to their offerings, in which case you may have some limitations. For example, obviously if you're a Sig man you would rather carry (all day) a 228, or perhaps even a 226, than a 220. But other than brand preference, the selection of guns out there and the new lighter materials no longer gives the 9mm much, if any, size/weight advantage.

    I don't rely on "plastics" to make this point, of course. If you don't like "plastic," there's still plenty of .45s in alloy that are a pleasure to carry (including the aforementioned PD, if you can find one), from aluminum to titanium to you name it.

    Still, an interesting thread. Times have changed somewhat, but it's not difficult to make a case that new technology is actually favoring, not the 9mm, but the larger calibers. Double stacked .45s, lighter trigger pulls, alloys and polys, have all helped keep the .45 competitive with smaller calibers. No longer does the .45 have to have a heavy trigger/hammer spring -- remember the AMT Backup in 45 -- people complained that it had a 14 lb. pull and the company responded that it needed that for reliable ignition. No more. Now we have an abundance of engineering solutions and even LDA for the heavier rounds.

    Enough ramble. I meant to quit a paragraph ago.

    - Life NRA Member
    "If cowardly & dishonorable men shoot unarmed men with army guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary...and not by general deprivation of constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
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  • LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    I own a couple of .45 caliber weapons, including a 13-shot (12+1) Para-Ordnance P12-45. However, I put just as much defensive value in magazine capacity as I do in ballistics. When I feel the need to be VERY well armed, I holster-up my Glock 17 with a 19-round magazine full of 9mm +P ammo. But hey, that's just me.

    Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.
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  • Dyer_MakerDyer_Maker Member Posts: 1,018 ✭
    edited November -1
    I have had both a .45 and 9mm(which I still have). I shoot the 9mm more so I carry them. The .45 round is a great bullet but its alot more expensive to practice with. I'm feel that either the 9mm or .45 are both great self defense rounds. I would not want to be shot with either one myself lol. I think its a personal choice. I prefer the 9mm myself and I know that I'm in the minority. I have two right now and looking to add another. You all can keep your .45's lol.
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  • leeblackmanleeblackman Member Posts: 5,303 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Seems like everyone is so concerned with this whole one stop shot mess...

    Sorry, no matter what you shoot a person with, there's never a guaranty that your going to neutralize them with one shot instantaniously. It may take several. But I don't think that the caliber is really the deciding factor. I think more of it has to do with the psychy of the person your shooting. The physical and mental abilities of them to function while hurt under stress before they bleed out.

    If I'm wrong please correct me, I won't be offended.

    The sound of a 12 gauge pump clears a house fatser than Rosie O eats a Big Mac !
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  • interstatepawnllcinterstatepawnllc Member Posts: 9,390
    edited November -1
    Rugerniner,.....Touche. Thanks for the language lesson. Bwhaaaaaaaahaaaaaaa!!
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  • azzeaterazzeater Member Posts: 187 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I know that you didn't ask about .40's but i like it best because it has more power than a 9mm, shoots clean and doesn't throw my hands like a .45. I wiegh 160lbs. so i'm not big enough to efficienlty shoot a .45. My .40 sprinfield p9 is my favorite gun in the whole wide world.


    hey all!
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  • leeblackmanleeblackman Member Posts: 5,303 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I weight 150lbs, don't have any problems shooting the .45acp. As a matter of fact when I first started shooting IDPA and USPSA I weighted about 135lbs.

    If I'm wrong please correct me, I won't be offended.

    The sound of a 12 gauge pump clears a house fatser than Rosie O eats a Big Mac !
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