Alternatives to Public Education

ndbilly

I've seen a number of references in different threads here regarding the fact that our typical public school student is being force fed great gobs of liberal tripe, especially in the form of misinformation regarding the RKBA. The NEA is an openly Democrat organization and likely to remain so. I believe that the same may be said of state teacher's unions. If you'll recall your own education experience, particulary that of those first four or five grades, I think you will agree that many of the attitudes and opinions expressed by those authority figures remain with you today or took a lot of time to sort through and, perhaps, to refute. The point is that our children are being taught by a group of people who, for the most part, take positions exactly opposite our own on subjects we are passionate about, particularly the Second Amendment. So, what's to be done? Vouchers? Mixed reviews at best. Home schooling? Nice for those who can do so but not a practical solution for an entire nation of children. Private/parochial schools? Even if you decide to go this route, the cost is becoming prohibitive and turning many of these schools into elitist institutions. I don't have an answer and have argued this question for many years. The situation is not getting better. I would be most interested in your opinions.

ndbilly

Songdog - Yeah. I've heard that about Japan. The educational system, especially. These kids stress themselves out getting into a good college but once they're there, they don't have to do much since the rest of their lives are pretty much guaranteed.

turbo

Ndbilly,My wife and I, sent our kids to private school, two reasons, one we taught them OUR valus in our home, and we wanted these values reinforced by teachers that hold to the same values we espouse; two, becuase we also realised that the public school system, has within it's institution, some really liberal ideologs, who have no real foundation nor discipline in their own lives and yet because of their insecurities have this desire to teach others so that others will agree with them, while they themselves are unteachable.They would have you believe your not even fit to teach your children, because you don't have a formal education. Horse Manure..Teaching is a job to many of them. There are very few good teachers, with moral convictions in the public system today, that would stand up to this liberal elitest group who has hijacked the system from the hands of the administrators and the parents.I dare to say they are militant, with the backing of the teachers unions, Take notice that they all, always back Democratic candidates and the more liberal they are, the more enamored they become with their candidate.The government has been pouriong money into the system for years with dismal results.It's beyond me, how any thinking parents, can see this problem and be against vouchers.My wife and I, paid taxes for public education just like all other working persons, never got the benefit of those taxes and then on top of it, paid for the private school tuitions charged by those schools our kids attended, right to the end. And let me tell you that it was well worth the sacrifice.We made it a priority, to make sure our kids got the best possible opportunity to get what they deserve.Since it's a Federal Government mandate that all children attend school, parents need to become active in their childrens education, it isn't enough to send the tax money.Institutions like the educational system, will not change on their own, you've to really shake them up, to get them to deliver, just like business, competition is something they dread, because the private schools which you call elitest, have been producing good solid education for years, in the basic R's, and when they also demand the basic courtesy standards of their students, everybody winds up winning.I say giving parents the right to choose where their children will spend be educated with their Vouchers, together with 100% of the cost associated with each students education per year, is what will turn things around.[This message has been edited by turbo (edited 01-13-2002).]

songdog

ndbilly- Did my post get poofed? If it did, i am sorry if it affended anyone out there.songdog

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Be bold in what you stand for, careful in what you fall for.

badboybob

If you teach your children the proper values beginning at an early age they will turn out ok in spite of all the socialist bs they are exposed to. I did with mine and they did.

ndbilly

SONGDOG - I have no idea what happened to your post. SorryTURBO - My own children attend a parochial school and my concern is that schools like these are becoming too expensive for the average family. Believe me, it's a strech and a half with my two. "Elitist" in that all who wish to send their children to other than the public schools might not be able to do so because of cost. Our decision was largely based on our religious beliefs. Is it possible to get a good education in a public school and still not lose sight of what's important within a particular family? Of course. Thousands of people do it every day. Overall, however, it is becoming more difficult to shovel the sand against the tide. One quick story and I'll shut up.My wife is a teacher. Had 14 years in, mostly in a parochial high school. Was out of the classroom for about twelve years and went back to a public high school in 1999. Came home every day with some new story of rude behaviour, loud, foul language, "problem" students, etc. Capper came when a girl showed up on her 16th birthday wearing a lei made of condoms. she was showing her support for the practice of safe sex, she claimed. Why her parents allowed it, I'll never know but the fact that the administration, when notified, did nothing about it, was most telling. Wife now works in another field, not because she was so shocked or so disturbed but because it is not possible to effectively teach in such an atmosphere. And that atmosphere is becoming more pervasive in more schools every day. IMHO, when schools lost the right to permanently expel students for repeated and flagrant violations of the rules, the schools lost control of the students. The ability to say, in the gravest cases, "Take a walk" remains the single biggest disclplinary difference between private and public educational systems and allows the former to retain an atmosphere conducive to quality instruction.

thebutcher

I grew up in a town where Christians are a minority. This Haloween, three non-christians showed up as a priest and two pregnant nuns (impregnated by the priest). Not only were they not sent home, they won the award (given by the faculty) for best costume.When our church complained, we were met with the most ignorant and offensive responses from the town and school officials.

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The definition of an "expert":An "X" is an unknown quantity and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.

turbo

nDBILLY, It's obvious that you are against vouchers.Your to sensitive to the sound bites, do your math and you'll find out that if parents were able to get 100% of what the government pays to educate a child, you could go to a parochial or private school with that money pay your tutition and have money left over. On the other hand if you'll settle for 40% of that total amount, you would pay the difference out of your pocket, and yes it would be expensive., Problem is that parents, hear the other sides argument for not having vouchers, and right away they role over dead, and assume what they just heard is the gospel. "The school system will collapse", nonsense I say.Your assuming that private schools are more expensive, than public schools.Here in Kalifornia, if you got the full amount to use as you please you get a dynamite education in a good quality christian school, and as bonus your child wouldn't have to put up with the pressures of, gangs, drugs, the vulgar language even the teachers and stundents use in classes, or any of the other peer pressures, kids must put up with in public schools.Just this afternoon I was listening to a radio talk program, where parents were calling in concerned, about the requirement for 7th graders in the public schools, being required to take classes in the Koran, where they had to memorize the five tenets of the muslim faith and learn several prayers, and wear the turban, and know what the color designations were, and as a requirement for passing the class, they had to have there paper evaluated by a muslim cleric, before grading, the observance of "ramdam" was to be experienced. All this in a setting were the christian faith is outlawed, Imagine that?Instead of whinning about whats wrong with the system, parents are experiencing, parents need to ask themselves; "What am I doing about changing the system?When the president says; "everybody that pays taxes, should get a tax refund", and then the opposition comes out with; "these tax refunds proposed by the President are for the rich"...Your not one of those that are against tax refunds, because the rich will also get one, are you? I hope not.I am against giving a tax refund to anybody that didn't PAY taxes, this includes the homeless. In spite of popular beliefs, rich people pay there fair share of taxes, they are just as entitled to a tax refund as anyone else. IT'S THE AMERICAN WAY, EVERYONE SHARES EQUALLY. IT'S TO THE DEMOCRATICS PARTIES ADVANTAGE TO CREATE SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS.You see, if they can get a special status for a certain class of people ei: "Legalizing all illegals in one fell swoop", one, this wouldn't cost them (Democrats) nothing, and two, who do you suppose would vote democratic from hence on.These WEDGE issues are the way the savy politicians on the left reach the waffling, unsofisticated, ignorant citizens, who fall for this ploys, cause they sound so nobel, but the fact is they divide us. And since any house devided cannot stand, those that continue to just walk around with there head in the clouds, vote to the cadence of these "sound bites" never realizing what or where the problem really lies. So they are always whining. Something doesn't seem right but they can't quite put their finger on where the problem lies.[This message has been edited by turbo (edited 01-15-2002).][This message has been edited by turbo (edited 01-15-2002).]

DarkStar11

TURBO -- In CA you have the option of state-funded home-based charter schools, too, where the parent has much more control over the education and it doesn't cost them anything.

turbo

Dstar,You are absolutely right about that, however you still must continue paying taxes to support the system.Very few young families raising children today can afford to have either parent stay home and do the teaching to their own children.In other words, there is no relief from the tax burden for taking on the job that is by law entrusted to the public schools.And by the way, when parents decide to teach their own children, they have to buy all the classroom texts. and lesson plans.It' tuff, todays concerned parents are really behind the eight ball.Having gone thru it all, I just see vouchers as exactly what parents needto force changes within the system that will not come about by them selves.Even now teachers are already fighting against the regulations to have qualified teachers cerified in the curriculim being taught, required by this lates Federal School Bill.

DarkStar11

Turbo,Yes, your taxes go to the system, and yes, it requires effort from the parents that decide to homeschool.No, in CA the parent does not need to purchase all the texts. There are charter based home school programs (and charter site-based programs!) that are sponsored by public schools, that provide the funds for the educational materials. The only texts the parents must purchase are those considered religious. Some (all?) of the charter home school programs even have credentialed teachers on site with the children (and parents) at least 1-2x a week. Some of the home based charters even supply computers, internet access and online curriculum to the students -- and it doesn't cost the parents a dime. Your CA taxes are paying for these things! (despite the very best efforts of the Teachers Union and State Congress-folk from LA and SF areas). [This message has been edited by DarkStar11 (edited 01-15-2002).][This message has been edited by DarkStar11 (edited 01-15-2002).]

ndbilly

turbo - Was not on line last night.Wasn't whining but wondering. So far as vouchers are concerned, I re-read my posts and don't believe I said I was against them. I said that vouchers aren't always the answer. I wish we had them here in Il. As william81 mentioned, we do get a capped tax credit but, in my case, the amount represents about 10% of what it costs to send my two children to parochial school. It's a start and I'm grateful. Tax cuts and refunds? Bring 'em on! I don't give a hoot if you're rich and get one. I don't see the connection. Everybody pays, everybody gets relief.Paying taxes and paying for an education in a school not supported by those taxes is a choice my wife and I have made. We don't like it but we live with it. Also, just for the record, non-public schools do get the benefit of tax dollars in a number of ways. Subsidized school lunch programs, textbooks (except for religious texts), lab equipment, gym equipment, bus service, the services of reading and math specialists for students diagnosed with learning disabilities, counseling services. I'm sure there are others. What they do not get help with are some of the bigger ticket items like the operation of the school itself and teacher's salaries and benefits. In a way, it ain't awful since we get back some of our tax dollars but don't have to let the government interfere.

turbo

Sorry I wasn't trying to insult you.If your getting 10% of the what it costs to school your children in the public system, your really getting taken advantage of.It's just that Vouchers is the answer, not what they are offering, but the entire amount that it costs ought to be given to every parent as an entitlement, afterall thats what this is for our children an ENTITLEMENT. The teachers unions are against this claiming, this would sure lead to the downfall of the public school system. What a crock. This would improve education, raise the bar as they say, why? because now we would be able to measure, success.What a sweet deal for them if they could give everybody ten percent, and not have the kids to teach. That's highway robbery.There are no options, and everybody is confused on this issue.Garaunteed, if vouchers were given out for 100% tuitons, the old teachers that have tenure, (they don't have to produce like the ones that don't) would be running around getting their house in order.Parents need to demand their rights,and their childrens rights.Healthy competiton would not hurt this system we have in place know.Pouring more money into it is not the answer..[This message has been edited by turbo (edited 01-16-2002).]

218Beekeep

We home school ours,Boy-9,Girl-7.He was in his room reading 'The Slaying Of The Minotaur'an hour ago,when I last checked on him.He is also very much into Rudyard Kipling.."oh best beloved"I do not believe it a good system for an eight year,for example,to be in a classroom all day long with one teacher and a bunch of eight year olds,in this case he is being influenced mostly by eight year olds.I have had conversation with 12 year old home schooled kids,who could relate and converse with 5 year olds,and 65 year olds.Where the public school system would have him only able to relate to children exactly his age..218

turbo

I have noticed this to be true with most kids that have their parents involved in their education, and maily it is because of this atmosphere which is conducive to learning. Parents need toi be involved.School should not a traumitic experience for kids, unfortunately it is, in the big inner city schools.Unitl discipline and respect is required from students, no amount of money will change the atmosphere that exists in these schools.