Mlincoln- Altruism, etc. BEWARE- Religious Content.

whiteclouder

Mlincoln:First a caveat; it would be constructive if atheists, agnostics, and non-Christians (and that include Mormons) refrain from commenting because this discussion is predicated on a belief in the Christian God. In fairness, I would be happy to treat with the excluded in another thread.Postulate: 1- Self is the same as soul , 2 -You are a Christian.You believe that you enter to your reward by being good, not by doing good. Good defined as accepting the biblical Christ as your redeemer and trying to live as He would. That first statement is the reason I had to exclude Mormons. If doing good is a reason in itself, or as it appears you define it, altruism, would you not be giving your self (soul) short shrift for the good of another? And were you not told to protect your soul (self) by the very entity you are bound to please. I agree with you that in its purist form, selflessness is the good defined in the Bible, but there has been only one instance of pure selflessness and He is the One you worship as perfect. We are plagued, I should say I am plagued, by so-called preachers who exhort us to be kind, generous, ad nauseum, for the good of our souls or ourselves. C. S. Lewis said something like `those who torment us for our own good are relentless because they do so with the approval of their own conscience', that we somehow have a duty to do good for others, that we owe them. In fact, altruism is defined as a `duty to others' and it must follow that if we do not do for others we have somehow dutifully failed. This brings on a feeling of guilt which cannot be healthy and if not healthy, damaging to ourselves (our souls). "There, you see," mlincoln shouts, "he has just made my argument." But wait, you said `Yes, I often get a bit of a glow from helping somebody out, but I also often get a feeling that I should have done more.' GUILT. Not good. Would you have felt better not helping? Ah, the dilemma of the decision, you are forever denied knowledge of the alternate choice. (Between you and me I think the choice to help is the better one but we are talking logic here.) And that closes the logical circle, you are guilty for doing it or guilty for not. Your words and a dilemma. Argument: Selfish is the same as self-servingSelfish: Looking to one's own advantage without regard for others.Self-serving: Serving one's self with disregard of the truth.You can see why the second word was coined. Leastwise I hope you can. It has to do with honesty and integrity where the first one does not necessarily. The first is, as far as I can see and I've stated as much, an honest approach to living. Look after my soul. If we all did that, strife would be non-existent (expect for a few deviants who possess no soul) because interaction with others enrich our souls. And enrichment is an end to itself, therefore a reason to do that which enriches.I have re-thought my position on self-service. Re-read some interesting papers and that found in my youth my ego had gotten in the way a couple of times. But as is always the case, persistence prevailed in the absence of spare time and speed and the light prevailed. I'll not belabor you with what the change was, it is apparent. As I said, dissertation is the mother of ideas and I thank you for the stimulus. I wait your response.Clouder..

.280 freak

Whiteclouder -I know that you didn't ask me, but .........Shouldn't your last line have been either "I await your response?" or "I wait for your response?"(Sorry, just couldn't resist!) [This message has been edited by .280 freak (edited 01-06-2002).]

whiteclouder

280:Naw, I knew you really bright ones would see what I meant. And you're right. Want a job editing?Clouder..

whiteclouder

Then do neither Dano, do neither.Clouder..

.280 freak

Clouder -Depends. I would require a starting salary of at least $5.85/hr with working days to be no longer than 10 hours with 15 minutes (off the clock, of course) for lunch.Tough negotiater, ain't I?On second thought, I'll probably pass for now; I didn't actually read your whole post that closely looking for any nit to pick, that one just kind of jumped out at me. Trying to read, and properly digest, every word of your sometimes lengthy posts would most likely prove too taxing for my provincial brain, all those synapses and neurons start popping and hissing, you know!Later,.280 freak

badboybob

As usual Clouder your reasoning is crystal clear. Many will disagree with you for they cannot understand what you're saying.For those who cannot understand "selfish" let them read "Atlas Shrugged" by Aynn Rand.The book was written more than 50 years ago and much of what it discussed has come true.

timberbeast

Who is John Galt?

Judge Dread

As a CHI or KI master i only comment that first.(Self is the same as soul), you need to create a soul , the only way to create a soul is to destroy the self (EGO) (Personality) or as a Buddist master shall say (SATAN),so the Self is not the same as soul. That is why the way to salvation is "christification" becoming like Christ,the jesus paid for your sins stuff is FALSEthe true TEACHING is take the cross and be responsible for your actions,help others become like him,if you don't do it he will the first to kick your butt to hell.... Read the dead sea scrolls ......

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M=MC?/(T/T)

twins

Ever read "NIGHT" by Elie Wiesel, it makes for an eye opener, did God forsake people?I never heard that Mormon's are not Christians.

jeenyes

Lets see, I think Mormons believe that Christ was a man who was so good that he became a God. Not that he was the son of God.

HAIRY

Let's see here: in genetics, if one combines human DNA with a sheep's DNA, it is called a monster. If one combines human DNA with an otherworldly DNA (god?), we call it a .... Christ? Human or half-human? Inquiring minds want to know.

mlincoln

Whiteclouder, you know a lot of cool words and you obviously took a great deal of time to put that together, but you forgot the most basic part of writing: get your point across. Lots of what you wrote just flat doesn't make sense, and as somebody with a resonable amount of brains I shouldn't have to sit here and try to puzzle through what you mean. It's not intelligent or sophisticated; it's bad writing.Have more faith in your ideas. Put them down simply and clearly so we can chew them over. If you want to make your writing as complex and convoluted as possible you've succeeded, but don't think that you're furthering the discussion or creating a good piece of writing. It's what one of my professor used to call mental mastrubation: writing that makes you feel good but does nothing for anybody else.

thesupermonkey

To my buddy Clouder,You never say as much, as when you say so little...I agree with mlincoln on the fact that your argument was more focused on the prose than the idea itself. You are correct, the bible does say we need to look out for our own soul, I suppose this could be considered a form of selfishness. However, the bible also says there is no greater love than he who lays down his life for that of his friend. That scripture shows that while we are under an obligation to care for our own soul, putting others first is the essence of love (Goodness). I am on target, or out in left field.

whiteclouder

mlincoln:It was whores on the 'words mean things' thread and here it's *. Lay back and start at the very beginning....Clouder..

UnclePat

NUNN,Where are you when we need you?!

whiteclouder

monkey:Appreciate your candor. I'll do better.You are not in left field by saying what you believe. Who is going to argue? Or I should say, who can argue? Goodness is as you see it. I've thought long and hard about what my self is and what my soul is and how I can reconcile what I have to live in with what I want to be. You don't have to lay down with a pig to know you will get mucked up if you do. So I try to see how others cope with what they have and not compare my attitude or circumstance with theirs. This causes problems because I have to make certain, if I can, that what I describe or pose cannot be misconstrued. This requires words, carefully chosen words. If some ignoramus stumbles over a few of them the problem is corrected by learning the meaning of the unfamiliar word and not by whining about how hard it is to read. Or the ultimate solution for the terminally stupid, don't read it at all. Does that verse "greater love hath..." mean He wants us to lay down our lives? Or do we protect the temple? That's the humbling part of reading that book, the more you read the less you understand.We will survive, buddy.Clouder..

joe4348

Clouder-I was amused after reading your opening paragraph about not wanting any responses from atheists, agnostics and non-Christians. Unless I'm wrong it appears that most the posts were from that perspective. Anyway, I appreciated the insight on selfishness vs selflessness and leading a good life. As you are aware, it was because of sin that God sent His Son to die and pay that penalty for sin so each and everyone of us would not have to suffer the same fate, if, we just trust in who and what Jesus did. But if we do that it doen't mean all are problems(selfishness, i.e. sin) disappear. We are still left with our old nature untill we die. But the good news is when we became a Christian Christ gave us His Spirit to help us. The Bible says, "Greater is He that is in you than he who is in the world." So we have the power to do good rather than evil. And the Bible also says, "Walk buy the Spirit(selflessness) and you will not do the deeds of the flesh(selfishness)." Simple isn't it?

offeror

timber --Yes, I understood your question. A Randite in our midst? (Better take it to a new thread, eh?)

turbo

Here is another one that sheds lite on the subject, speaking of the Soul."And do not fear those that who kill the body, but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear HIM who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."Everybody has control of his own body, to do good with it or bad. (Some would argue of predesposition to..not so.)But, who has power over his own soul?Decisions, decisions.. What to do with the offer of amnesty?