Iceman was murdered

allen griggs

Do any of ya'll keep up with the 5,300 year old mummy found in the Italian Alps? The latest assessment is that he has an arrowhead in his shoulder. They can tell that it went through the shoulder blade, so he was shot from behind. It probably cut the artery that supplies the left arm thus killing him.

"Not as deep as a well, or as wide as a church door, but it is enough."

Lowrider

Probably the victim of some prehistoric drive-by.

Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.

muley

That's cool...I actually mean, interesting. Have you got any links to this story? I live in a self-imposed vacuum and this is the first I've heard of it and my one news channel wouldn't air something like this. They only air stories involving 25 year old "children" getting shot, etc.
muley

**I love the smell of Hoppes #9 in the morning**

allen griggs

I'll find you some links. He is called "Utzi". He was buried in a glacier, and all his gear was found with him, including a bow of yew, 14 arrows, a flint knife and a pure copper hatchet. This finding has moved back the date of the start of the copper age by 500 years. He was a link between the stone age and the metal age. Also, he has many tattoos. These were examined by acupuncturists and are believed to be just on the acupuncture meridians, so acupuncture, which was thought to be invented in China 2000 years ago, was used by Europeans 5,300 years ago.

"Not as deep as a well, or as wide as a church door, but it is enough."

aglore

Have read 1 or 2 articles on this. Have you ever read anything on the skeletal remains they found in WA state that was dated to be about 9,000 years old and did not resemble any indigenous people of the area?

AlleninAlaska

http://www.outdoor-o-rama.com

He who dares not offend cannot be honest.
-- Thomas Paine

allen griggs

Try news-journalonline.com or, nationalgeographic.com or discoverychannel.com go there, and punch in "iceman alps" to be searched for.

"Not as deep as a well, or as wide as a church door, but it is enough."

metalcutter

That's strange. If he was murdered, why did his attackers not steal his tools? Either copper hatchets were a dime a dozen back then (I doubt it!) or he ran far enough and fast enough before he collapsed to escape and hide from them. Maybe he stepped in front of the on coming glacier and it ran him over!

Lowrider

The guy they found in Washington State on the banks of the Columbia River, nicknamed "Kennewick Man", pre-dated the earliest American Indian remains by a few thousand years and didn't look anything like the Indians; he looked more Scandinavian. The Indian tribes immediately demanded custody of the remains so they could bury him in the "Indian tradition." The archeologists who found him wanted to keep him to study, and said he definitely WAS NOT Indian, so the Indians had no claim to him. The Feds. and the courts got involved and the remains were taken by the Federal Marshalls and put on ice for several years. By the time the scientists got him back a bunch of the pieces were missing. The Indians are screaming racism.

I think the Indians wanted to get rid of the evidence that might prove them to NOT be the first people on North America.

The Clinton Administration, of course, sided with the Indians and had the Corps of Engineers dump a bunch of fill along the riverbank where the digs were taking place and also prohibit any future excavations in that area. If there were other remains along that stretch of the Columbia we'll never know it now.

Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.

nord

It's more the things we don't know that should amaze us. Iceman was murdered and he did, indeed, have a copper axe. What we fail to grasp is that his copper tool wasn't the first by any means. Neither was his murder.

If all this find did was to prove the metal age went back 500 years farther than we "educated" folks thought it did, it's a sad thing. What it should say is that almost everything goes back much farther than we'd come to believe.

I'm sure the ability to fasion copper and other non ferrous metals goes back much earlier than 5,000 years. And medical knowledge... Who knows how far back it goes and how much we've lost.

While it can't be proved, I'd speculate that Iceman or some of his contemporaries were well aware of the New World. I think we give too little credit to our ancestors when it comes to their abilities, their knowledge, or their travels. While I doubt any one person at that time could have fashioned a globe and pointed out the continents, I'm not so sure the collective knowledge wasn't there.

Giving credit for the discovery of the Americas to Columbus or Erik the Red makes for a good story, but the truth goes back to a time so faintly remembered that it's only on the very edge of our consiousness.

I sometimes wonder if the stories about giants aren't a reference to our Neandertal cousins? Science tells us that they passed from this earth about 10,000 years ago and my bet is that they're the giants of legend. We humans have a very good memory... And we have speech... And that's why we're where we are today.

Nord

muley

allen.....I did a google search and the first one that came up was the nationalgeographic.com site you posted. Very interesting. I can't believe I haven't heard of this before. Guess I've been spending to much time watching cartoons with my grandkids. NOT!
Thanks, muley.

**I love the smell of Hoppes #9 in the morning**

218Beekeep

It`s good to see you weren`t talkin about George Gervin(Ice Man)!

.218

robsguns

He wasnt murdered, this is all hear say and conjecture. He was a buddy of mine, name of Ugagalah, in a past life. Well, one day he gets kind of depressed, asks me, Shokeh, that was my name then, how about coming over for dinner tonight, think my woman can make us a mean piece of musk ox pie.' I said ok. We get there to his cave, and man is the woman ticked, he didnt have the courtesy to let her know, she didnt have a thing ready. Well we'd already stopped off to have a couple drinks at the Cave 'orama, so he was in no mood to listen to her whining. He cuffs her one, (first case of domestic abuse), and she just bends over and picks up an arrow laying there. He'd already turned around to tell me his ol' lady was a pain, and we were going back to the Cave 'orama. Well, she sticks that darn arrow so far into his shoulder while we're talking that he nearly fell on his face. I had to help him to keep from falling. We headed out of there like our tails were on fire, her yelling obscenities and telling him to never come back, him more ticked than anything. The arrow wasnt a problem, I broke the shaft off for him, patched him up and we went for a beer. See how these scientists think they have it all figured out? By the way, I never saw him again after he stumbled out of the Cave 'orama late that night. I know that makes me a prime suspect, and my story less than credible, but thats my story and I'm sticking to it!

SSgt Ryan E. Roberts, USMC

218Beekeep

In my day,this was THE ICEMAN:

http:www.geocities.com/Colosseum/5290/TributeMaterial/GeorgeGervin.html

.218

Rembrandt

....there is no statute of limitations on Murder....the case should be reopened....

218Beekeep

What did I do wrong,..that weren`t no IceMan!

.218

Lowrider

As far as I'm concerned, the Ice Man was, is and will always be, Jerry Butler.

Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.

groundhog devastation

Sarge, Have you ever thought about writing short stories when you get out of the service? That was GREAT!! GHD

allen griggs

Lowrider, that is very interesting about Kennewick Man. I looked up some links. Never heard of him before. Muley, Iceman is particularly interesting to me. All these other mummies are Indians from Peru, or else Egyptian, you know, guys who lived in the desert and rode camels. I can't relate to them. But Iceman is from the land of the snow in Europe. He is my ancestor. He carried a bow and arrows. He is a fascinating story, and every year they learn something new. They had him 10 years before they discovered the arrowhead. It is a good question, if someone murdered him, why didn't they steal his copper axe, which would have been precious. Robsguns-pretty good story.

"Not as deep as a well, or as wide as a church door, but it is enough."

charlie15

Hey, do you suppose it was a "hate crime"?

aglore

Well maybe they should use some of his DNA to create him an offspring. Then the Ruskies could use the DNA from the Wooly Mammoth they have to reintroduce them back into the world. Would be fun hunting one of them.

AlleninAlaska

http://www.outdoor-o-rama.com

He who dares not offend cannot be honest.
-- Thomas Paine

96harley

They failed to say anything about the suicide note attached under his hat. They also found a Jennings 380 tucked under his armpit. He was last seen working for a defuncted black top crew in northern California.

Richie Rich

check him out

They had a special on this a few months ago here in arizona. It kinda reinacted the scene.

Remember,"your woman may not find you handsome, But atleast she'll find ya handy". I love that show..............

Richie Rich

Remember,"your woman may not find you handsome, But atleast she'll find ya handy". I love that show..............

Richie Rich

Hairy clues to the Iceman's diet.(neolithic man's hair shows evidence of vegetarianism)(Brief Article)
Issue: Nov 7, 1998

The neolithic man discovered in an Italian glacier in 1991 carried a bow and a quiver of arrows, leading archaeologists to label him a hunter. Chemical analysis of his hair now indicates that the Iceman was a strict vegetarian, at least just before his death.

"Hair is a really powerful tool as a record for human diet, and it is apparently intensely well-preserved," says Stephen Macko of the University of Virginia in Charlottesville. "The hair that's 5,000 years old [on the Iceman] was identical to the hair on my own head," showing no chemical deterioration, he says.

Macko measured the ratios of forms of carbon and nitrogen atoms preserved within the Iceman's hair. Both carbon and nitrogen come in light and heavy forms, or isotopes. Plants contain relatively little of the heavy isotopes, so the hair of herbivores has lighter isotopic ratios than does the hair of carnivores.

Researchers have previously studied ancient diets by analyzing the isotopic ratios in the bones and teeth of mammoths and other extinct species. This technique, however, requires large samples, and the molecules can degrade quickly, says Macko. With only a few millimeters of the Iceman's coarse hair, however, he found very low isotopic ratios, indicating no meat consumption as these strands were growing.

Macko has also studied other ancient hair samples. The isotopic ratios found in eight Egyptian mummies suggest that they had a relatively restricted carnivorous diet, whereas Egyptian Coptics had a much more varied one. "They [Coptics] had a huge variation in foodstuffs, equivalent to the modern grocery-store population," he says.

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Remember,"your woman may not find you handsome, But atleast she'll find ya handy". I love that show..............

thunderbolt

Obviously meat was harder to obtain in those days!

96harley

Naw, He was just a poor hunter.

allen griggs

Saxon you are addressing another part of the mystery. Iceman wasn't hunting because his bow was unfinished.

"Not as deep as a well, or as wide as a church door, but it is enough."

j2k22

he was cleaning his bow, and it went off!

boeboe

It is obvious he was well armed for the time, and carried the same type of weapon that killed him. Obviously a vegitarian warrior who died in armed combat with a squad of carnivores.

To err is human, to moo is bovine.

turbo

Interesting story, I remembered early upon the remains of this iceman, they accused some of the anthropologists that were sent up to the alps to retreive the remains of stealing the icemummies "privates";

Next thing you know, we may be hearing of the birth of his cloned offspring; it was reported, their were women calling from all over, wanting to be the mother of his offspring.

More fire into the evolution argument.

"The great object is that every man.... everyone who is able may have a gun." Patrick Henry

turbo

Interesting story, I remembered early upon the remains of this iceman, they accused some of the anthropologists that were sent up to the alps to retreive the remains of stealing the icemummies "privates";

Next thing you know, we may be hearing of the birth of his cloned offspring; it was reported, their were women calling from all over, wanting to be the mother of his offspring.

More fire into the evolution argument.

"The great object is that every man.... everyone who is able may have a gun." Patrick Henry

96harley

BoeBoe, I like that. You are probably right.

oldgunner

Extremely interesting topic, and I have been keeping up. However I question some of the conclusions of the experts. I don't know that they are wrong by any means, but they seem to have decided from his stomach contents where he came from, his profession, the way he lived, the village he came from, his political affiliations, his status in the comunity, etc..well..maybe, but don't they turn mole hills into mountains? As speculation of course, it is interesting, but who knows? Maybe he was a serial killer who had to be chased down. Maybe he stole someones sheep. Maybe he took the chief's wife to his straw mat. I don't see enough evidence to decide he was murdered. Maybe it was self defense. He look kinda mean to me.

There are no bad guns, only bad people.

turbo

Well it stands to reason that if these so called experts, can build an entire skeletal frame and give it a complete body features with hair, eye color, from a few bone fragments.

Then only their imaginations can be the limiting factor, when giving the mans mummified remains a complete historical account of his life, even where he was born and grew up.

Besides if the story is interesting enough, some educator can publish the story into textbooks and teach them to science students, as a factual account of early man.

The important thing is to get him fitted into the humanoid family tree, a branch or two below modern man.

Ya know, somewhere close to the missing link.



"The great object is that every man.... everyone who is able may have a gun." Patrick Henry