US Navy Now & Then

22WRF

The Navy then and now...........It is true and it is scary!Then-Rifles were made of wood and steel and fired a 7.62mm bullet thatkilled the enemy.Now-Rifles are made of plastic and aluminum and fire a .22 caliberbullet that wounds the enemy.Then-If you smoked, you had an ashtray on your desk.Now-If you smoke, you get sent outside and treated like a leper.Then-Mail took weeks to come to the ship.Now-Everytime you get near land, there's a mob topside to see if their cellphone works.Then-If you left the ship it was in Blues or Whites, even in home port. Now-The only time you wear Blues or Whites is for ceremonies.Then-You wore bellbottoms every where on the ship.Now-Bellbottoms are gone and 14 year old girls wear them every where.Then-You wore a dixie cup all day,with every uniform.Now-It's not required and you have a choice in different hats.Then-If you said "damn," people knew you were annoyed and avoided you.Now-If you say "damn" you'd better be talking about a hydroelectric plant.Then-The Ships Office had a typewriter on his desk for doing dailyreports.Now-Everyone has a computer with Internet access and they wonder why no workis getting done.Then-We painted pictures of pretty girls on airplanes to remind us of home.Now-We put the real thing in the cockpit.Then-Your girlfriend was at home, praying you would return alive.Now-She is on the same ship, praying your condom worked.Then-If you got drunk off duty, your buddies would take you back to the shipso you could sleep it off.Now-If you get drunk off duty, they slap you in rehab and ruin yourcareer.Then-Canteens were made out of steel and you could heat coffee or hotchocolate in them.Now-Canteens are made of plastic, you can't heat them because they'll meltand anything inside always tastes like plastic.Then-Our top officers were professional sailors first. They commandedrespect.Now-Our top officers are politicians first. They beg not to be given awedgie.Then-They collected enemy intelligence and analyzed it.Now-They collect our pee and analyze it.Then-If you didn't act right, they'd put you on extra duty until youstraightened up.Now-If you don't act right, they start a paper trail that follows youforever.Then-Medals were awarded to heroes who saved lives at the risk of their own.Now-Medals are awarded to people who show up for work most of the time.Then-You slept in a barracks, like a soldier.Now-You sleep in a dormitory, like a college kid.Then-You ate in a Mess Hall. It was free and you could have all the foodyou wanted.Now-You eat in a Dining Facility. Every slice of bread or pat of buttercosts and you can only have one.Then-We defeated powerful countries like Germany and Japan.Now-We can't even beat the carpet from the Captains quarters without theMarines as backup,and the Air Force flying cover for you.Then-If you wanted to relax, you went to the Rec Center, played pool, smokedand drank beer.Now-You go to the Community Center and can still play pool, maybe.Then-If you wanted a quarter beer and conversation, you could go to the NCOor Officers' Club.Now-The beer will cost you two dollars and someone is watching to see howmuch you drink.Then-The Exchange had bargains for sailors who didn't make much money.Now-You can get better merchandise cheaper at Wal-Mart.Then-If a Admiral wanted to make a presentation, he scribbled down somenotes and a PN spent an hour preparing a bunch of charts.Now-The Admiral has his entire staff spending days preparing a Power Pointpresentation.Then-We called the enemy things like "Commie Bastards" and "Reds" because wedidn't like them.Now-We call the enemy things like "Opposing Forces" and "Aggressors" so wewon't offend them and Sen Clinton.Then-We declared victory when the enemy was dead and all his things werebroken.Now-We declare victory when the enemy says he is sorry and won't do it againfor a while.Then-A commander would put his butt on the line to protect his people.Now-A commander will put all of his people on the line to protect his butt.BTW I'm a "Then"

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I Refuse to be a VictimGrumpy old man[This message has been edited by 22WRF (edited 04-02-2002).]

badboybob

So very true

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PC=BS

Gordian Blade

THEN - Got their fannies handed to them in the night surface actions around Guadalcanal.NOW - Any single CV task group could take out the entire navy of any other nation, day or night.

22WRF

G-B Did you some how miss the Mariannas Turkey Shoot:

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I Refuse to be a VictimGrumpy old man

Gene B.

If "now" and "then" fought eachother id have my money on "then"!

jonk

While I DO agree in principle, the modern navy is much more powerful and efficient at killing things/blowing them up than its counterpart. Now, one destroyer could take out a whole WW2 battleline.

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"...hit your enemy in the belly, and kick him when he is down, and boil his prisoners in oil- if you take any- and torture his women and children. Then people will keep clear of you..." -Admiral of the Fleet Lord Fisher, speaking at the Hague Peace Conference in 1899.

Druupy

Then - Any dummy could stand in line to feed an "AA" mount, and you needed lots of em.Now - A very Intelligent technician must "Decide" (given the attributes and tendencies of a blip on the screen) whether to let loose the CIWS (close in weapon system) or to light it up with a SAM. Different jobs require different personnel, and different support systems to meet their differing needs.

Gordian Blade

22WRF, no, I didn't forget the "turkey shoot." By then, we we fighting the less experienced pilots. I specifically pointed out the night actions around Guadalcanal because I consider the sequence of battles to be a classic case of the THEN Navy making a big mistake in discounting the possibility of Japanese long-range, surface-ship mounted torpedoes and refusing to adapt their tactics accordingly. (Despite some clear evidence.) That was just to point out that things weren't perfect in the THEN Navy.I could also mention the length of time it took for the Navy brass to accept the malfunction of our own torpedo detonators. Let's not forget the F-up in Leyte Gulf where our light carriers came under fire from a Japanese surface battle group. That could have turned out much worse if the Japanese hadn't gotten cold feet and thought it was a trap.

Norman Dog

It seems to me that the "now" Navy has been made possible because of the lessons learned and the experiences of the "then" Navy.

22WRF

Most of the comments seems be on tactics and firepower, not much on personnel.Women on ships playing sailor etc.How about the media frenzy on the TR returning after a whole 6 mo deployment.In the 60's and 70's WestPac Ships deployed for 9 to 10 mo as a routine and the only people on the pier when they returned were the dependents.

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I Refuse to be a VictimGrumpy old man

Gordian Blade

Oh yes, I almost forgot:THEN - If your face is black, you cook the meals, shine the shoes, and do the laundry.NOW - You can do whatever job you can do well. (Some exceptions, like females pretending to be deck hands but saving the heavy lifting for the males. Heard about that second-hand, corrections welcome. In the THEN Navy, they had big and little guys in the torpedo room - big to handle the torpedoes and little to crawl into the tubes and other tight spaces for maintenance work.)

idsman75

I dated the daughter of a retired Navy Captain. He was of Argentinan origin and would always make comments about all of the changes that were necessary to accomodate women on ships. I never figured out what he meant by having to "take on all sorts of extra supplies like tampoooons".

beachmaster73

Gordian Blade your knowledge of Naval history is impressive. Most people don't view the Battle of Leyte Gulf as one of the worst performances of American Navy leadership in history where we very nearly lost every single troop transport whilst they were still loaded with Mark1 Mod0 soldiers. Were it not for the performance of the 3 Navy destroyers and 3 destroyer escorts ATTACKING a Japanese Fleet of 4 battle ships, 6 heavy cruisers, 2 light cruisers, and 11 destroyers during the phase of the Battle known as the Battle off Samar the United States might have lost about 300 thousand soldiers in transport ships. The highest level of THEN leadership, Admiral Halsey swallowed the Japanese bait hook, line, and sinker. All would have been lost were it not for the valor of the Captains and crews of ships like the HEERMAN which engaged 4 battleships and 2 heavy cruisers simultaneously and the badly damaged JOHNSON which fought 1 cruiser and 4 destroyers until it sank. And as it sank from fire at point blank range two of the Japanese captains came to rigid attention and rigidly saluted it until it slipped beneath the waves. I've always considered the Battle of Leyte Gulf both the United States Navy's worst performance(ADM Halsey) and by far its very greatest performance(RADM 'Ziggy' Sprague). Weapons and tactics have changed between THEN and NOW and I served with officers and men who served THEN and who are serving NOW. I truly believe the individuals of both periods gave the best that they had or have. If the United States Navy has a fault, through both periods, it is that it tends to underestimate the capability of its adversary. There is no cure for that other than to train, and train, and train to ensure that the best performance is given when it is really needed. Beach

buddyb

The Seabee battalion I was in in the"then"Navy now has a female commander.

BoltactionMan

Gordian Blade etalI don't know as much about these battles as you guys do, but I believe it all has to do with the THEN fought and defeated powerful enemies like Germany and Japan. It normally tends to make any battle more dangerous when your opposition is as well or better equipped and led as you are. NOW we are the only country who can afford to gas up enough boats to be worth mentioning.Also, where did all those experienced Japanese pilots go before the Marianas. I didn't think the emporer allowed early retirement.KC

Norman Dog

Beachmaster,I don't know if you saw me brag about my father-in-law on this board recently, but I'll do it again: He was on the escort carrier Marcus Island which was assigned to Taffy 3 at the Battle Off Samar. When I can get him talking, he tells about giving the Japanese Navy all they had while trying to stay out of sight. He was a deck gunner and came close to being taken out by a Kamikaze pilot he shot down. Before I knew about his involvement in this battle, I read about it in Costello's book - quite a sphincter clincher! He doesn't consider himself a hero. Just a young man from Oklahoma doing his job. After all, he came back alive and whole, unlike so many that he calls the real heroes.

Submariner .

then-they could see you by the smoke your diesel put out of the exhaust mastnow-the first sign of you is when your mk 48 ADCAP rips their belly open

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Truck Driver,Submarine Veteran,Rusty Wallace fan,and piss poor typist E-MAIL WNUNLEY@USIT.NET

Submariner .

i know what you intended.i was definitly a "then" sailor in a "now" navy.i had the great privelige of serving under two of the finest "then" skippers in the submarine navy.capt lyle meier and paul sullivan.get the job done politics be damned,too bad it aint like that no more.

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Truck Driver,Submarine Veteran,Rusty Wallace fan,and piss poor typist E-MAIL WNUNLEY@USIT.NET

Gordian Blade

Thanks for the history refresher Beach, I had forgotten some of the details. I never had the honor of serving, I only read about it. It's not the same as getting the spray in your face, I know.One of my best friends from college was Navy ROTC and he's got some great stories of cold war submarine ops. He also had some bad experiences with the usual BS, the clincher was when a female enlisted refused him space in the BOQ in port because he "already had a berth" on his submarine and they were saving the rooms for visitors from the Pentagon. He had just come off a multi-month deployment playing stealth kiss-hull with the Soviet surface fleet. The Navy lost a good nuclear power officer that day, as the experience caused him to decline to re-up. This was during the Carter years, by the way.

beachmaster73

Norman Dog....The Battle off Samar is to the Navy as the Battle of the Alamo is to Texans or the Defense of Wake Island is to the Marine Corps. The only difference is that at the end of the battles the Texans were dead and defeated(though immortalized), the Marines were captured and defeated(though immortalized), but the sailors of Taffy 3 were smashed to bits and victorious(and largely ignored by the American public) They, singlehandedly, had fought with such ferocity against the Japanese Main Battle Fleet that it turned back when the unarmed American transports and escort carriers were literally within Japanese sight. The problem of course with the battle at the time was that to give credit to 'Ziggy' Sprague for the most magnificent naval battle against overwhelming odds in history was to reveal how utterly stupid and so short sighted Halsey was in his vain attempt to sink the planeless Japanese aircraft carriers that he abandoned his post and was sucked north chasing them. I've always felt that 'Ziggy' Sprague belonged in the pantheon of American heros such as John Paul Jones, Robert E. Lee, Alvin York, Steven Decater, and Theodore Roosevelt. Instead he is relegated to less than a footnote in history. While he never received the public acclaim that he deserved it is not a small coincidence that more Navy ships are named after participants in the Battle off Samar than any other battle in the history of the United States. Norman Dog....Are you sure your dad was on MARCUS ISLAND? My history doesn't include that escort carrier at Samar. From what you describe he might have been on the FANSHAW BAY or perhaps the KITKUN BAY. Both of them bagged a few kamikazes. Beach

22WRF

BeachMy research says Blade has it right.Marcus Island CVE 77 was part of Taffy 2/3 http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/CVE/CVE-77_MarcusIsland.html

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I Refuse to be a VictimGrumpy old man

Xracer

Beach.....one of the qreat quotes of WWII...There were the Jeep Carriers of Taffy 3, straining at a max speed of 14 knots...dodging the salvos of the Yamato's 18-inch guns, and some Gunners Mate pipes up: "Hang in there guys...we're sucking them into 40mm range!"

beachmaster73

22WRF....My history has the running gun battle and great chase of Taffy 3 as the escort carriers: FANSHAW BAY, WHITE PLAINS, KITKUN BAY, GAMBIER BAY, KALININ BAY, and ST. LO. with the escorts HOEL, HEERMAN, SAMUEL B. ROBERTS, JOHNSON providing the attacks on the battle ships and heavy cruisers. Later in the battle the destroyer escorts BUTLER, DENNIS, AND RAYMOND laid smoke and countered the cruiser threat that JOHNSON had singlehandedly disrupted at the cost of its own life....by then Kurita had already started to loose his nerve. I think but am not sure that MARCUS ISLAND was a part of Taffy 2 under Admiral Stump which provided some indirect air support but was not part of the close quarter fightingand hand to hand combat in which Taffy 3 participated. Beach

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Beach

22WRF

Beach Bravo Zulu on your research.Marcus Island assigned to Taffy 2Under Stump.Johnston CO Received the MOH (Post)TF Received PUCMany Silver Stars to Crew Menbers http://www.bosamar.com/home.html 22WRF

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I Refuse to be a VictimGrumpy old man[This message has been edited by 22WRF (edited 04-03-2002).]

Shootist3006

Beach, I agree with you that halsey's performance at Leyete gulf was one of the worst showings of the Navy. The VERY worst was at Gaudalcanal when Admiral Frank J. Fletcher decided that he didn't want to stay and fight and 'retired' his carriers, forcing Admiral Turner to 'retire' the rest of the invasion fleet thus leaving the 1st Marine Div. without its heavy artillery and half of its supplies.Sad day indeed for the US Navy

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Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis

Norman Dog

22 and Beach - My mistake, I meant Taffy 2, the group that provided support. My father-in-law was not very specific about his stories, they were told one after another without specific references. I did some research on my own and discovered the story of the Battle Off Samar on the web and in Costello's book about the war in the Pacific. Dad's Kamikaze story was in amongst his stories of trying to stay over the horizon from the Japanese fleet, so I assumed they were part of the same engagement and that the engagement was the BOS. I don't push him to tell the stories, I just try to listen and learn when they come out.Please forgive me for making assumptions. This has been an interesting thread, thanks for all of the added info.

Norman Dog

Maybe this is where the Kamikaze confusion came from. This is an excerpt from the link that 22WRF provided above:"Marcus Island came under attack the morning of the Mindoro invasion, and between 0810 and 0930 enemy planes made three suicide runs andone bombing strike against the carrier. All the planes were splashed or deflected by intense antiaircraft fire, although two kamikazes splashed close on the bow to port and starboard causing minor damage and several casualties."So, the Marcus Island faced Kamikazes during the Mindoro Invasion, about 6 weeks after the Battle Off Samar. Dad said that, during the attack, there was one moment when his gun emplacement was washed with fuel from the Japanese airplane - covering everyone. They just knew that immolation was next on the agenda. However, they were splashed by water from the airplane crashing into the ocean a moment later, greatly reducing the fire danger. I'm not sure how possible that scenario is, but I wasn't there.