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Was Rainbow Farm Another Waco?

Josey1Josey1 Member Posts: 9,598 ✭✭
edited January 2002 in General Discussion
Was Rainbow Farm Another Waco?Marijuana Advocates Tom Crosslin and Rollie Rohm Sensed the Government Was Out To Get Them. And Then They Were Dead. Was Rainbow Farm Another Waco? Rolland Rohm, left, and Tom Crosslin, who channeled his anti-government anger into the movement to legalize marijuana. (photo by Lou Vee) By Peter CarlsonWashington Post Staff WriterSunday, January 27, 2002; Page F01 VANDALIA, Mich.At the entrance to Rainbow Farm, a strand of yellow police tape * in the cold Michigan wind and a dead brown bouquet sits beside a sign that reads, "In Loving Memory of Tom & Rollie."At the base of a flagpole a few yards up the driveway, there's another sign left by supporters of Tom Crosslin and Rollie Rohm: "Wake Up -- Who's Next? You?""After Tom and Rollie were killed, we found a Rainbow Farm flag on the ground here and it looked like there was a bullet through it," says Trena Moss, a local plumber and friend of Crosslin and Rohm. "We put up an American flag, upside down."Fat flakes of snow are falling from a bleak gray sky on what's left of the Rainbow Farm campground. Snow covers the fields where thousands of campers gathered for the annual pro-marijuana festivals -- Hemp Aid and Roach Roast. It covers the stage where aging '60s stars rocked out -- the Byrds and Big Brother and the Holding Company. It falls on the foundations of a half-dozen buildings burned to the ground during a five-day siege last summer -- an armed standoff that started after police arrested Crosslin and Rohm for growing pot, then took Rohm's 12-year-old son away from him and prepared to seize the farm as a public nuisance.Snow also covers the spot where Crosslin, 46, was shot through the forehead by an FBI sharpshooter and the place beneath a scraggly pine tree where Rohm, 28, was killed 12 hours later by a Michigan State Police sniper who put a bullet right through Rohm's rifle butt and into his chest, splattering blood over the camouflage paint on his face.Trena Moss stands in the falling snow and tells a story about the time country singer Merle Haggard played a gig at one of the farm's pro-pot festivals. "Tom told me that when Merle came here, he said to Tom and Rollie, 'I can't believe they haven't killed you boys yet.' Rollie laughed real hard at that."A Place in the Country"In a way," says local attorney Dan French, "it's our own little Waco."The fatal endgame played out last Labor Day weekend, but the tension had been building during years of scrapping between the local law enforcement apparatus and the two marijuana activists.It began back in the early '90s, when Grover "Tom" Crosslin bought the 34-acre farm and an adjoining 20-acre wood near Vandalia, a hog-farming town of a few hundred people in southwest Michigan, about 30 miles north of Elkhart, Ind.Crosslin grew up in Elkhart, a city famous for its RV factories. When he got out of high school, he became a truck driver, got married in his teens and divorced a couple of years later. He started a successful business installing flagpoles and then began buying run-down properties in Elkhart, fixing them up, and selling or renting them. He did good work, winning an award from Elkhart's Historical and Cultural Preservation Commission in 1995.Crosslin loved to smoke dope, his friends say, and when he got stoned, he'd launch into loud libertarian rants about how the government had no right to tell people what they can or can't smoke. He used to toke up with his construction crews after work. One of his workers was Rolland Rohm, a quiet, easygoing guy with long blond hair and a big, happy laugh. Rohm had fathered a son at 15 and was briefly married. Soon, Tom and Rollie became a couple.Crosslin bought the farm in Vandalia as a place where he and Rohm could escape their urban life in Elkhart. They loved to pick blueberries, fish in the pond and just stroll the hills with their dog, Thai Stick.In the mid-'90s, Crosslin bankrolled Rohm's legal battle to gain custody of his son, Robert, who was then about 6 years old. When Rohm won that fight, the two men began raising the boy in Vandalia."Robert loved being with his dad -- the father-son relationship was just incredible," says Tammy Brand, 32, a neighbor whose son Dairik was Robert's best friend. The kids played baseball on a team coached by Brand's husband and they frequently stayed at each other's houses. "Robert was here two or three nights a week and Dairik was over there the same amount. I felt just as comfortable with him being there as here. It was not an unsafe environment."Brand would have been upset if Crosslin and Rohm had smoked marijuana around her son but they never did, she says. "They kept it to themselves."Crosslin continued developing real estate in Elkhart and one day he visited Sondra Mose-Ursery, Vandalia's part-time mayor, to ask about real estate prospects there. He overheard her taking a phone call from a poor woman begging for clothes for her kids. He seemed surprised to learn of poverty in Vandalia, she recalls, and he immediately took her out to Kmart to buy Christmas presents for the town's poor kids. "He bought trains and dolls and trucks," she says. "He was like a kid going shopping, a person going back to childhood."He also gave her a $5 bill for each kid on her Christmas list. He spent over a thousand dollars that day, she recalls, and he didn't want any credit for it.But Vandalia's secret Santa also exhibited a violent streak. On April 19, 1995 -- the day of the Oklahoma City bombing -- he was arrested for assault in a local bar. These days, Crosslin's supporters claim he was defending himself against gay-bashers. But at the time, witnesses told police a different story: Crosslin was ranting about the bombing and denouncing the evil federal government when a woman told him to shut up. He cursed her and when she stood up to protest, he shoved her. Then he darted behind the bar, grabbed the bartender's club and hit her with it before the owner wrestled him to the floor.He pleaded guilty to an assault charge and served several months in the Cass County jail. When he got out, his anti-government views had hardened. He channeled his anger into the movement to legalize marijuana. He turned Rainbow Farm into a campground and began holding pro-pot festivals every Labor Day and Memorial Day weekend."Rainbow Farm supports the medical, spiritual and responsible recreational uses of marijuana for a sane and compassionate America," he wrote on the farm's Web site. As for the war on drugs, he added: "We consider this a war on us and we are fighting back."Instant FlashbackIf you got stoned enough at one of Tom and Rollie's festivals -- and thousands of people did -- you might think you'd traveled through time and ended up at Woodstock.Up onstage, the Byrds or Big Brother or some local band would be jamming. Out in the field, where 3,000 people from all over the Midwest were camped out, a group called Granola Funk cooked up big batches of free veggies and performed puppet shows for the kids. Vendors sold everything from corn dogs to handblown glass hash pipes. At the farm's store, called "The Joint," you could buy a cappuccino or a bong. And sometimes Crosslin stood at the gate, handing out free rolling papers.Meanwhile, on one of the campground's hills, they would set up the "Naked Hippie Slide" -- basically just a piece of plastic covered with soapy water -- and people would strip off their clothes and slide down it, while spectators laughed uproariously. "The first time I went out there," says Melody Karr, 37, who volunteered in the children's tent at festivals, "I said, 'Wow! Hippies really do exist! I heard they'd died out.' "But the festivals weren't just a stoned giggle or a chance for Crosslin to make some money. They had a serious political purpose -- proselytizing for Michigan lawyer Greg Schmid's "Personal Responsibility Amendment," designed to decriminalize marijuana. Schmid set up booths, where he gathered signatures on petitions to get the amendment on the Michigan ballot. Between the rock bands, Schmid, Crosslin and other activists exhorted the crowd to register to vote, sign the petition and get involved in the movement. "Rainbow Farm was the conduit for people interested in marijuana law reform," Schmid says. "The best petitioners I met, I met through Rainbow Farm."Lots of folks loved the Rainbow Farm festivals but Scott Teter was not one of them.Teter, 39, is Cass County's conservative Republican prosecutor. Elected in 1996, he won a reputation for being tough on deadbeat dads. When he learned that a lot of local teenagers were having babies, he put up billboards that said, "If your sex partner is under 16, they won't be when you get out of prison" -- a move that earned him an appearance on the "Today" show.Teter first learned of problems at the Rainbow Farm festivals in 1997, when local cops got complaints about noise and litter. He wrote a letter to Crosslin, saying, as he recalls, "You need to police your gatherings."In 1999, Teter heard reports of blatant dope-smoking at the festivals and he wrote a second letter to Crosslin, officially warning him that if he permitted drug use on his land, the property could be seized by the county as a public nuisance.That threat angered Crosslin, who fired back a long, pugnacious reply: "I have discussed this with my family and we are all prepared to die on this land before we allow it to be stolen from us. How should we be prepared to die? Are you planning to burn us out like they did at Waco, or will you have snipers shoot us through our windows like the Weavers at Ruby Ridge? Maybe the Govenor [sic] can call in the National Guard for another Kent State . . . "'Head-Butting'Teter huddled with state and county cops to figure out how to handle the festivals. They quickly agreed that sending cops to make dope busts in a crowd of 3,000 potheads was not the best option."It's not worth starting a war," Teter says. So they devised a plan that combined harassment with surveillance. Police patrolled the roads leading to the festivals, stopping cars on any pretext and searching them for dope. Undercover cops infiltrated the festivals, buying drugs, and the state police rigged up an RV with a hidden periscope camera and videotaped all sorts of antics, including the Rainbow Farm security guards smoking joints.Meanwhile, Teter filed suit to stop the festivals under an ordinance that required permits for gatherings of more than 500 people. Crosslin fought the suit on a technicality that exempted nonprofit groups from the ordinance. He claimed the festivals were sponsored by an obscure Ohio-based nonprofit with a grant to study hemp -- and he won.A year later, Teter filed suit again, alleging that the nonprofit was no longer registered with the state. But by the time the case came to court, it was registered. Crosslin had hand-carried the paperwork through the bureaucracy. And he won again."It was head-butting," Tammy Brand says, referring to the feud between the campground and the authorities. "This head-butting went on for years. What it reminded me of was the Dukes of Hazzard versus Boss Hogg."On April 20, 2001, Rainbow Farm held another festival and the next day, Konrad Hornack, a 17-year-old who'd attended the festival, died when the car he was driving hit a school bus in a nearby town. Police said he had marijuana in his bloodstream. After that, Teter decided to use another weapon against the farm, the same weapon the feds once used against Al Capone -- taxes.A woman who'd worked at the Joint told police that Crosslin was paying some employees off the books. Teter passed that information to the Michigan Treasury Department, which obtained a warrant to search the farm for tax records. Early on the morning of May 9, some 30 state police officers dressed in combat fatigues and black ski masks raided Rainbow Farm, rousing sleeping staffers and campers and pointing guns in their groggy faces. That show of force was necessary, Teter says, because of Crosslin's pugnacious 1999 letter: "There was at least the possibility that he'd do what he said and attempt to harm officers."Crosslin didn't do that but he did scream at the cops, curse them, call them Nazis and worse. Rohm, typically, was much quieter. The police claim they found him in the farmhouse basement, trying to stash 300 pot plants into garbage cans. Upstairs, the cops found more pot and a couple of loaded rifles. Teter charged Crosslin and Rohm with manufacturing marijuana, running a drug house and possession of firearms while committing a felony. He also charged Crosslin with possession of guns by a convicted felon. Both men faced more than 20 years in prison. And Teter wasn't done with them yet.Crossing the RubiconAfter Crosslin and Rohm were released on bail, the prosecutor got a court order forbidding festivals on Rainbow Farm. He also filed papers to seize the farm as a public nuisance. And he worked with the county to remove Robert from his father's custody for "neglect secondary to criminal behavior."One day, Robert didn't come home from school. Children's Protective Services had grabbed the 12-year-old off the playground. After a hearing the next day, he was placed with a foster family in a nearby town -- a foster family headed by a retired policeman.Rohm was devastated. "Rollie had tears in his eyes," says Brand. "The man had lost his son. He felt helpless and hopeless."Now, the two men not only faced decades in prison, but they were also likely to lose their land and they'd already lost Robert."Tom was defiant but Rollie was scared," says Dori Leo, the lawyer who handled their criminal cases. Leo, a former Chicago prosecutor, felt that Teter was too hard on the men, particularly Rohm. "He had the owner of the farm in his grasp, so why be so tenacious about Rollie?" she asks. "I took an oath when I took this office to enforce the law as it's written, not as I want it to be," Teter says. "There isn't a let-them-do-it option."Crosslin was enraged that the government could seize his land and take Rohm's son. He was determined to fight back. Ignoring the court order, he held a festival on the farm in mid-August. It wasn't much of a gathering -- only a few dozen people showed up and two of them were undercover cops.The cops told Teter that Crosslin offered them a hit on his pot pipe. Teter returned to court and asked the judge to revoke the two men's bond. The judge scheduled a bail-revocation hearing for Aug. 31.For Crosslin, that was it. He had no intention of going to jail, he told friends, and if the government seized his land, he'd make sure there was nothing left on it."I'm going to die on my farm, not in prison," he told Doug Leinbach, a former manager of Rainbow Farm.During the last week of August, Crosslin and Rohm drew up identical handwritten wills, leaving all their possessions -- including the farm and several other properties -- to Rohm's son. Then they started giving away stuff, letting the hippies who hung around the campground help themselves to whatever they wanted from the Joint. As their court date approached, Crosslin left a note in an old brick house he was renovating in downtown Vandalia:"The action we must take now is not what we wanted. We would have prefered [sic] a peaceful end to the drug war. . . . No longer are we talking peace. The Government must be stopped. Scott Teter knew what was coming. . . . Our police no longer serve and protect us. We need protection from peopel [sic] we hired to protect us. . . . Let the battle begin." The First ShotBuggy Brown had just finished milking the cows when he saw a column of smoke coming from Rainbow Farm. It was the morning of Friday, Aug. 31, the day Crosslin and Rohm were due in court. Brown, 35, is a thin, thoughtful man with a goatee and a ponytail, an old toking buddy of Tom and Rollie who worked at a farm just down the road.Spotting smoke, he hustled over to Rainbow Farm and saw that the VIP room -- the little building where bands waited to go onstage -- was burning. He saw Rohm and asked him what was going on. Rollie didn't say much, except "It's time."That sounded ominous. Brown whipped out a pipe and he and Rohm shared a few tokes.Then Brown left, went to a nearby farm and called the police, telling them that the fire was contained and it might be best if they didn't go out to Rainbow Farm. The cops took that to mean they might be ambushed and they set up roadblocks to seal off the area.At the courthouse, Dori Leo waited for her clients. Teter told her that fires were blazing at Rainbow Farm and they both drove out there. Leo volunteered to go talk to her clients but the police wouldn't let her -- too dangerous, they said.Instead, Brown brought Leo's cell phone up to the farmhouse, which had no phone. She talked to both men briefly before they sent the phone back. "Tom was just ranting and raving about the government," she says, "whereas Rollie was asking questions about the situation he was in. He was scared."Hovering above the farm was a helicopter from WNDU-TV in South Bend, Ind. Eric Walton was shooting fire footage for the evening news when the station radioed and told him and his pilot to leave because the cops said somebody was shooting at them. Back in South Bend, they found a bullet hole in the tail of the chopper, about two feet from the gas tank. After completing his afternoon milking, Brown returned to the farmhouse. By now Crosslin and Rohm were dressed in camouflage uniforms and carrying rifles. More buildings, including the Joint, were burning."We sat on the back porch and watched the store burn," he says. He smoked a bowl with Rohm -- Crosslin wasn't smoking -- and then he left, with a message from Crosslin for the TV people:Sorry about the helicopter. It was blue and white and looked like a cop chopper.The FBI ArrivesThe next morning, a Saturday, Brown bought breakfast at McDonald's and took it up to Rainbow Farm. The three men ate and smoked some weed and shot the breeze.That's the way it went for the next two days. Brown visited several times a day, carrying messages back and forth. At one point, Crosslin said he wanted to talk to the media. The cops nixed the idea, saying if Crosslin wanted to talk to anybody he should talk to them. But he didn't want to talk to cops. In fact, when they set up loudspeakers and started talking to him, somebody shot at the speakers from the house.Inside the house, Crosslin and Rohm were calm, watching TV, taking showers, smoking weed, Brown says. "Rollie was the same old Rollie, extremely mellow," he says. "Tom was composed but firm. He had a purpose -- to protect his property. You're not talking about people who had lost it."Outside, the state police had brought in an armored personnel carrier borrowed from the Michigan National Guard. On Sunday, the FBI arrived, more than 50 strong, summoned to the scene because the helicopter shooting was a federal crime. "We were strictly in a defensive position," says John Bell, head of the FBI's Detroit office, who was in command. "There were no offensive moves made. We were just trying to contain the situation."The FBI and the state police agreed to take turns, each guarding the area for 24 hours. On Sunday afternoon, the state police left and the FBI took over. Bell sent three FBI SWAT teams, each composed of three sharpshooters, to take positions inside Rainbow Farm. Camouflaged, they lay in the woods all night, armed with rifles, keeping an eye on the farmhouse.On Monday morning, Brown arrived and found that Crosslin and Rohm had a visitor. Brandon Peoples, a local 18-year-old, had wandered onto the farm and was sitting calmly in the living room.On that visit, Crosslin agreed to accept a phone and Brown brought one in. Crosslin told the FBI that he and Rohm wanted to speak to Rohm's son. The FBI refused."This is a boy of some tender years," Bell explains. "We weren't about to put him on there without having some knowledge of what they would be confronting this kid with."That angered Crosslin. He cursed the cops, hung up and sent Brown back out with the phone.Not long after that, Crosslin left the house, carrying his rifle, followed by Peoples. They walked through the woods -- right past one of the FBI's hidden SWAT teams -- and entered a neighbor's farmhouse, where they picked up some food and a coffee maker. They walked back into the house, then realized they'd forgotten the coffeepot. They returned to the neighbor's house, got the coffeepot and headed back.They stopped in the woods to rest at a campsite for a moment. Then, according to Bell, Crosslin spotted one of the FBI agents lying on the ground about 20 feet away, and he raised his rifle to his shoulder. When he did that, two agents fired, one of them shooting Crosslin through the forehead, killing him instantly."He died before he hit the ground," says Bell.Peoples fell, too, fragments of Crosslin's skull and brain splattered across his face. Perhaps he could confirm or deny the FBI account of the shooting, but he refuses to talk to reporters. NegotiationCrosslin was carrying a walkie-talkie when he was shot. The FBI picked it up, called Rohm, told him his buddy would not be coming back.They kept up contact with Rohm for a while but then he stopped responding. "Rollie, pick up the radio," they called. But they got no answer. "There were times," Bell says, "when it seemed like he'd fallen asleep." After dusk, the FBI's 24-hour shift ended and the state police took over, sending their own SWAT teams to take up positions on the farm. It began to rain, hard.Rohm agreed to accept a telephone and the state police drove up to the house in the armored personnel carrier and threw a phone toward the porch. Rohm retrieved it and began talking. Around 10 that night, Rohm's son Robert called Tammy Brand, the mother of his best friend. "Tom is dead," he told her, crying. "Don't let them kill my dad."She promised to try to help and she drove to the nearest police barricade. A couple dozen protesters -- most of them friends of Crosslin and Rohm -- stood in the rain holding soggy signs. When Brand approached the cops, they pointed rifles at her. For 45 minutes, she begged them to talk to her. Finally, she was called into a police car. Crying, she told the cops about the call from Robert and she offered to go to the farmhouse -- or at least talk to Rollie on the phone. They declined her offer."They said it would just cause more emotional turmoil," she says. At about 1 or 2 in the morning, Rohm talked to Dori Leo on the phone, asking questions about how much jail time he faced. That was a good sign, she thought: "When somebody asks you questions about the future, you figure he thinks he's got a future."But when he asked to speak to his son, she started to worry, figuring he wanted to say goodbye. Somewhere around 3 a.m., Rohm stopped talking and the cops decided to shake him up a little, says Lt. Mike Risko of the state police. They fired a 37mm "dummy round" -- a piece of hard rubber -- at the house, smashing a window. Rohm picked up the phone and asked why they were shooting. They started negotiating again and at 3:45 Rohm agreed to surrender at 7 if the cops would bring Robert. They agreed."I went home thinking, 'We've got this pretty well wrapped up,' " Risko says.But shortly after 6 a.m., the cops spotted a fire blazing in the farmhouse. At 6:31 Rohm walked out, dressed in camouflage fatigues, his face masked with camouflage paint, and crouched between two pine trees. The cops drove toward Rohm and the burning house in the armored personnel carrier. As they got close they were blinded by the smoke. Two cops stuck their heads out of the top of the vehicle in order to see better, Risko says, and Rohm raised his rifle to his shoulder and pointed it at them. At that moment, two state police snipers fired from 150 yards away.One missed. The other shot through the stock of Rohm's rifle and into his chest, killing him.Continuing ControversyCrosslin and Rohm are dead now, but the controversy over Rainbow Farm lives on. The official investigation into the killing of the men was conducted by Scott Teter. He concluded that the deaths were "justifiable homicide."John Bell agrees. "This is probably nothing more than suicide-by-cop," he says. "I'm convinced that these guys were at the end of their rope and they wanted to die and if they took a couple of police officers with them, that was okay."Leo isn't convinced. "What do we do with an animal that's out of control? We shoot it with a tranquilizer," she says. "The police were lying in wait. They saw my clients coming and going in the house and walking the property. They had opportunities to either maim or tranquilize them. Why wasn't that done? They were lying in wait, waiting for the right moment to kill them."Grover Crosslin, Tom's father, is more blunt: "He was murdered, I'd say."He feels the same about Rohm's death: "They burned the house down to get him out and when he came out, they shot him."Crosslin has hired a lawyer and plans to file a wrongful-death suit.That won't be the only legal proceeding in this case. Teter still plans to go forward with his efforts to seize Rainbow Farm as a public nuisance, despite the fact that the men who once operated it are dead.In his will, Tom Crosslin left the farm to Robert Rohm. Now, Teter says, he's worried that the boy -- or somebody else -- might turn the place into a memorial to Crosslin and Rohm and continue holding pro-pot festivals."What better way to talk about their cause than to stand on their graves and reminisce about them?" he says. "It would give them a great platform and they'd be out here doing the same things they did for the last six years."c 2002 The Washington Post Company
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Comments

  • concealedG36concealedG36 Member Posts: 3,566 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Well, I know some people that visited that place and as far as I'm concerned they were asking for it. I mean, I don't agree with our current war on drugs, I think it's a waste of money. But, there were high school kids going to this Rainbow Farm and they were buying drugs and drinking alcohol and then driving home. You just can't do that.Now, whether the way the authorities handled the situation when the closed the place down, I wasn't there so I really don't know.
    Gun Control Disarms Victims, NOT Criminals
  • badboybobbadboybob Member Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    More goobermint gestapo tactics.Who's next?
    PC=BS
  • 22WRF22WRF Member Posts: 3,385
    edited November -1
    I certainly wouldn't classify them as model citizens
  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Good riddance to bad rubbish. Sounds pretty justified to me and we have two fewer a$$holes in the world about whom to worry. Beach
  • Judge DreadJudge Dread Member Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Next? whoever has a gun a book or a brain..thats it ,time will tell ....
    _%_S
  • LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    Who was worrying about them, Beach?
    Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.
  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    The parents of the kids whom they sought to corrupt. The cops who had to be called out there on more than a few occasions. Might be a few more...certainly the taxpayers who would otherwise have had to pay for their incarceration. But not me....I'm just proud the police did a fine job without taking any casualties themselves. BeachP.S. I don't want to sound too callous but when criminal scum go down my heart doesn't bleed. Beach[This message has been edited by beachmaster73 (edited 01-28-2002).]
  • LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    The Branch Davidians and Randy Weaver's wife and son? Were they members of this "criminal scum?"Just checking.
    Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.
  • Judge DreadJudge Dread Member Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Dont you remember why aristoteles died and why? ,they had the right to an alternative !!!!! Pot or crack overdose !!!! no shooting ! HE HE HE !
  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    lowrider.....yes!!!! Beach
  • 223believer223believer Member Posts: 128 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I don't care if they were guilty or not. If you think you're going to smoke pot and tell others to do the same, you deserve a bullet in the face just like those two guys got. It's a shame the police and FBI snipers didn't wait until they had another festival and the farm was full of people before they opened fire.
  • concealedG36concealedG36 Member Posts: 3,566 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    223believer, you're saying that the people who gathered at that place should be shot (not the owners, but the high school kids and other people there)? Regardless of my opinion of the current laws, I can't imagine that being shot for possession of marijuana and alcohol is a reasonable punishment. But, I guess you wouldn't mind if somebody in your family or one of your friends was there and got a bullet in the face for committing a misdemeanor.I think you're typing faster than you're thinking, or you are very ignorant.G36
    Gun Control Disarms Victims, NOT Criminals
  • boeboeboeboe Member Posts: 3,331
    edited November -1
    Yeh, let's keep whittling those fringe groups off, cut off everyone who doesn't act and thing exactly like we do. Whittle, and whittle, let's get rid of those who like those nasty .50 BMG, and assault rifles, too! Whittle, whittle.... Now lets get rid of everyone who might read a book that supports a different point of view. Whittle, whittle....Pretty soon the only ones who will have guns are the Beaches in the world, and their children will be out smoking pot.Whittle, whittle....
  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    boeboe....I don't have any problem whittling away at lunatic fringe groups. If you want to enjoy the protection of a society you agree to the laws of the society. If you act outside of the laws of the society you have to be held accountable for your actions. A jury determines whether your actions were acceptable or not. If your actions were acceptable you go home with no problems. If your actions were unacceptable the judge and jury determine how much punishment you deserve in accordance with the laws of the land. This is a simple concept of justice that really does tend to work. Don't you think that had the lunatics at the Branch Dividian compound submitted themselves to the law of the land that all they might have been saddled with is a couple of minor weapons charges. Instead in a grandstand play of their independence from the law of our land they managed to kill several police officers as well as themselves. No I don't weep for the lunatic fringe. I weep for the families of those law enforcement officers who died because a couple of a$$holes thought they were above the law. And what would have happened if the "little wormboy" Weaver had simply submitted himself to the courts. Would the members of his state convicted him of heinous crimes against humanity? Nah, maybe just a couple of fairly routine violations. Instead he too ups the ante and decides to take on the "big bad meanie bully" government. Now, I guess he has to wake up every morning and look himself in the mirror and realize that being an * cost him his wife. I'd say that's a pretty fair punishment with which "wormboy" has to live for the rest of his life.. I guess I really feel for that FBI sniper who made a mistake under pressure and inadvertantly capped "wormboy's" woman. Are you so jaundiced that you actually think a jury would have given "wormboy" a sentence equal to what he gave his own family? Because if you do you really need to relook your view of American justice.And finally boeboe at what point does a police officer not have the right to defend himself? Does he have to wait until some pot smoking maggot actually shoots him? I'd really be interested in your answer here. In my society a police officer is a person who protects us from the a$$holes. He's not paid to be shot first by the *. It is not acceptable to aim a firearm at a police officer..if you do there are consequences....those two potsmokers found out the consequences. No loss, we are a better place for their passing.I think a lot of basicly good Americans get swept up in that "rugged, independent, pioneer" spirit stuff and mistake "lunatic, anti-social, neo-nazi" BS as the same thing....It's not! An American believes in all aspects of his society or he works to change those with which he does not agree through the system. There are certain aspects of my society which I would surely change if I could....but I don't barricade myself in my house and say I'll kill any police officers who come to my door to serve a warrant on me because I don't like the "bad meanie bully" government. I'll take my chances within the political system to change those aspects or through the judical system if I've done something wrong.And boeboe....if my kids ever smoke dope I'll deal with that as best I can. And if one of mine became an * lunatic druggie who aimed a pistol or rifle at a police officer...I'd just hope the police officer's aim was straight and true. Beach
  • LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    So, when the gov't. decides that private citizens can no longer possess firearms are you just going to turn yours in? After all, that will then be the new law of the land. And after you turn yours in will you snitch on me for keeping mine? 'Cause after all, when I decided to keep mine I joined the "criminal scum." You should read a little more about your government's attack on the Branch Davidians. The way you describe it is 180-out from what really happened. It might be hard to swallow, but you don't always get the truth from the gov't. spokesman on the 6 o'clock news.
    Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.
  • IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Reading this, it seems to me the outcome was almost inevitable. These two guys were determined not only to live unconventional lives but to break the law openly and defy authority when they were called to task. On the other side, it looks like we have a politically-ambitious attorney determined to make a name for himself with a PR-rich situation. But anyone who points a firearm at a LEO is asking to be shot - note that the snipers were acting in *self-defense*, not as aggressors. Beach, for once I must respectfully disagree w/ you on Waco & Ruby Ridge. It's pretty clear to me that in both cases the government went in like storm troopers and, at least in Idaho, were the initiators of the shooting. Were the subjects guilty of some crimes? Most likely. Was it handled correctly? Outside of the government whitewash, not too many people seem to think so, including me. There was no need for casualties on either side in either case, and it's a damn shame so many people lost their lives because of the zealotry on both sides. In that respect, yes, this recent incident has some common elements with the previous events, but not as much as some might assert.
  • beachmaster73beachmaster73 Member Posts: 3,011 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Iconoclast, I accept and acknowledge your rebuke and I admit that in all probability those situations were mishandled by the federal government. My contention was that the escalation of both crises was directly because of an anti-government bias that seems to have infected the right wing fringe groups in our society that is oddly reminiscent of the anti-government bias felt by left wing fringe groups of the 60's and early 70's(my universtiy's Navy ROTC Wardroom was fire bombed in the early 70's by radicals thinking they were doing what was right for their country...were they?) Were they equally correct in their view of our government? For that matter is the anti-gun coalition correct in their belief that the NRA is illegally buying off members of Congress to thwart the will of the American people in ridding our society of evil guns? I don't think so but I'll bet there are a few flag waving Americans who do.Iconoclast, as usual you cut to the chase in a cogent and intelligent manner. I deeply respect your views and will rethink some of my beliefs in this matter. Deep down I still believe that both situations could have been resolved without violence if they had only believed in the American system of justice more than they did. Beach
  • IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Beach, no rebuke to accept, compadre, just expressing a different view. I think a lot of people, across the political spectrum, have varying degrees of antipathy toward 'the government.' Unlike the radical leftists of the Vietnam era, the right winger militia types seem more geared to protecting themselves than attacking the government - recognizing that McVeigh, and possibly the anthrax attacker, stand as a partial refutation of that statement. A big problem as I see it is that when officialdom acts as it did in the Waco / Ruby Ridge incidents, it reinforces the paranoia / preconceptions. I would liken this Rainbow Farm case more to the SLA shootout than the more recent events. There was a clear and present danger to the LEOs when the authorities opened fire. I am often reminded of Baron Von Steuben's comment on training the Continental Army (not quoting exactly): "In Europe, I gave an order and it was obeyed. Here I must explain why it should be obeyed." Our nation is unique in the history of the world for many reasons. The key element in my mind, although I've never seen it expressed elsewhere, is that we are a nation founded and nurtured by the disaffected. Adventurers, explorers, victims of religious / ethnic suppression, those seeking economic success, political refugees / 'criminals' . . . they all came here to escape more restrictive societies and until 1932 there was an innate, near-universal distrust of government. That element is not as strong as it was, but it is still embodied in our Constitution and our culture. The American government must, like Von Steuben, explain itself to us. It must prove it is right in taking actions which in many other times & cultures would never be questioned. When any level of government (remember the Philadelphia PD's bombing of a house in the 70s?) uses unreasonable, especially lethal, force to achieve its ends, given the independent nature of our cultural psyche, at some level a lot people feel it as an indirect attack on them, regardless of their political views. The government's behavior in those instances lends some justification to the distrust you cite. I haven't articulated this as well as I would like, BTW, so don't hammer me too badly.I guess some folks may think the NRA 'buys off' elected officials, but then, there are others who think that AGS, Alec Baldwin, et. al. have bought elections for their cohorts. On that one, it's a rare politician who doesn't have one finger in the wind and the other hand counting money & votes.
  • the loveable rat...the loveable rat... Member Posts: 969 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    "the leviathan..." ,by the ratin the eternal struggle for justice and equitable governance, we find ourselves riding a curious monster which feeds us and eats us at the same time. regardless of political affiliations, the practitioners of american democracy still hold power dearly, are partly made of flunkies, are defended meanly, and act childish and duplicitous. these shortcomings are sometimes highlighted in blood. vietnam, ruby ridge, et al. (and even the recent 911 tragedy) can be seen as failures of our govenment(or more specifically, people within it) making mistakes. paranoia of the governed results from evasive manuevers on the part of those using official organs to avoid blame and responsibility. paranoia is spread through partisan proclaimations and, ultimately, a degree of paranoia is actually built into the foundations of the government charged to protect its citizenry, which conversely, makes up its goverment. longer service in goverment makes one more apt to understand its monstrous language, more likely to become monstrous oneself. lifelong antagonism of the goverment is bad for the health- and justfully so, in cases where the rules of conduct are violated. embittered citizenry watch with pale eyes cases where goverment violate laws, natural and decreed, and become more so as the laws it enforces seem only beneficial to the few and powerful. it, then, is as it always has been- a slow progression towards something better but- if it comes after you, put the gun down slowly, mortgage the house, and get the best damn lawyer availiable...
  • boeboeboeboe Member Posts: 3,331
    edited November -1
    Relativity, an interesting concept. A concept that applies to society as well as physics.Drifting off the subject to make a point, I remember that idiot Bill Clinton deciding to declare war on poverty, of all things. Of course, Christ said there would always be poor. That is self evident, because it is a relative thing. The person with the least money is poor, even if that person has tons of money. It's a relative thing.Radical thought and actions are a relative thing as well. If cults and fringe groups such as the Branch Davidians, Randy Weaver, Rainbow Farm, whatever, are removed and eliminated from society, the next most radical fringe groups/people become the most radical, and subject to persecution, whether justified or not. Thus, the circle of those acting within the bounds of acceptabe behavior grows smaller and smaller.The war on drugs is as futile as the war on poverty. All the drugs that are illegal today were not illegal 100 years ago (or so). The war on drugs was started by those who decided to impose their own principles on others. Whittle, whittle away at those parts of society that do not conform. Like any war on poverty, the war on drugs will never be won on a governmental level or within society itself. It can only be won on a personal level.Gun owners are in the same boat, like it or not. There is a large part of society that wants to take guns out of the hands of ordinary citizens, just as a large part of society decided years ago that drugs were bad and should be prosecuted.It's not a matter of standing up for the right to own guns, speak freely, or choose to use drugs. It's a matter of the government getting involved with taking away a person's individual right to lead life whatever way the person chooses, to pursue happiness in whatever way an individual sees fit. It's a matter of standing up for individual liberties.Sure, you can make the arguement that drugs hurt society as a whole. Just as do alcohol and gambling, fast cars, or as some would argue, guns. As a society, we are fighting wars that cannot be won and I think it's assinine and must come to an end. Let individuals fight and win (or loose) their own wars. That's the only way such wars will be won.
  • LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    Well said, Bro.
    Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.
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