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A QUESTION OF SELF-DEFENSE 2 shots fired in pursuit of stolen vehicle on Circle

Josey1Josey1 Member Posts: 9,598 ✭✭
edited December 2001 in General Discussion
A QUESTION OF SELF-DEFENSE2 shots fired in pursuit of stolen vehicle on Circle MORE No one injured in Circle shootingAn Indianapolis man was arrested Tuesday after he fired two shots at his vehicle when someone stole it from Monument Circle.1. Clifford Cox fires twice when he realizes his car is being stolen.2. The driver heads south on Meridian Street and west on Washington Street.3. The car is found near the west side of the Indiana Government Center. Victim of theft jailed after running after and shooting at person who took double-parked car. By Tom SpaldingIndianapolis StarNovember 28, 2001 A shooting at a city landmark Tuesday stunned pedestrians and again raised the question: What is self-defense? Clifford Cox, 24, Indianapolis, was arrested after he fired two rounds from a handgun at a man who stole Cox's car while it was double-parked on Monument Circle. State law allows a person to use deadly force to prevent serious * injury to himself or a third person, or to prevent the commission of a felony. Cox, who has a permit to carry a handgun, told police he fired at the car thief because he had tried to run Cox down. No one was injured.But police questioned whether Cox's life was truly in danger. He'd fired at the car as it was driving away in a busy Downtown area. He was booked into the Marion County Lockup on a preliminary felony charge of criminal recklessness.Cox of the 2800 block of Ruckle Street also was booked on an outstanding warrant for driving with a suspended license. "How can you shoot out a back window and say you are being run over?" asked Lt. Paul Ciesielski, the public affairs officer for the Indianapolis Police Department. "The evidence suggests his safety was not in jeopardy. He should have simply went back inside and called the police."Yet in Marion County, juries don't always see such cases so clearly.For example, a Marion County jury in October acquitted a man who said he acted in self-defense when he shot an unarmed teen-ager who had stolen his sport utility vehicle. The man had chased the teen through a neighborhood and shot him in the abdomen as he abandoned the SUV. And in 1994, a Marion County grand jury declined to indict an Indianapolis man after he shot a teen-ager who had taken his car from a car wash.In both cases, the vehicle owners felt their lives were threatened, and Cox said the same Tuesday on the Circle.But in the latest case, dozens of people were walking in the popular area when Cox fired the handgun, damaging a passenger-side window and the back window.Spent shell casings and some broken glass on the street were strange companions to the festive toy soldiers and candy canes that decorate the Circle for the holidays.The incident began shortly after 11 a.m., when Cox double-parked his Buick with the engine running in front of the Sprint store at 120 Monument Circle. Police say Cox was inside the phone store for 20 minutes to pay a bill before the theft occurred -- long enough that a civilian public safety officer left a traffic ticket on the windshield. When Cox saw his car being driven away, he ran out of the store and began firing as he ran after it.Police Sgt. R.L. Wolfe said Cox -- still carrying his handgun -- ran a third of the way around the Soldiers and Sailors Monument before giving up his weapon to IPD officer Doug Sweeney in front of the Columbia Club.The driver of the stolen tan Buick drove south on Meridian Street and then turned west on Washington Street before abandoning the vehicle on an access road adjacent to the Indiana Government Center. Police were still searching for him late Tuesday. "Usually it's a pretty quiet city. Pretty safe," said Charles Hamblen, a doorman who has worked on the Circle for 20 years. He was on a lunch break when the shooting occurred but returned to witness the aftermath of the mayhem.The shooting was the talk of lunchgoers, who debated whether someone stealing a car is a good enough reason to open fire in the middle of such a busy area. "It is not right to shoot at anybody stealing your car. I mean, it's just crazy," said Jim Truitt, 41, Greenwood, who works in the nearby Federal Courts Building. The Circle has been the site of shootings before. City leaders labeled as senseless the fatal shooting of Ricky A. Scott while he was standing on the Circle with some friends in March 1994. That shooting resulted in extra police patrols.Car thefts have generally been on the rise in the Police Department's three-square-mile Downtown district, with an average of 16 per month from April through September. The previous seven months averaged about eight car thefts a month.
Contact Tom Spalding at (317) 327-7939 or via e-mail at tom.spalding@starnews.com http://www.starnews.com/print/articles/circle28.html

Comments

  • travelortravelor Member Posts: 442 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If he had hit one of my little girls walking down the sidewalk with a stray bullit, I'd be doing hard time...And doesn't he know that by leaving his keys in the ignition ,car running, unattended is bad news? isn't that like giving permission? what if an unlicenced minor got behind the wheel, and killed someone...wouldn't he be 100% liable...? Moron should never have a gun again, or a licence to drive. heck, what if a miami vice cop had to requisition his vehical out of convience to apprehend a mass murderer? and this fool shot the cop in the back of the head, and the murderer got away to eventualy kill this fools wife or child? O.K.,....I'l shut up....
    keep lots of extra uppers for your ar..you can change often enough to keep the thing from over heating...what ever caliber fits the moment..~Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets~
  • S&W 629S&W 629 Member Posts: 13 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    I've been away from Law Enforcement for almost 20 years... but I just can't see how this could be considered "self-defense". I'm sure the guy was highly pissed... I would've been too... but firing at a moving vehilce... in a populated area... is (how can I say this?)...stupid! I think this guy has been watching too many Dirty Harry movies!
  • mudgemudge Member Posts: 4,225 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    What an *! The guy is, obviously, one of these people who thinks he can obey only the laws he chooses. ie. Double parking, leaving the engine running in an unattended vehicle. I know in this part of WV, both those are against the law. None of the LE agencies choose to enforce either but that's another story. And THEN blazing away at a moving vehicle. Totally uncalled for reaction. The guy's a moron. I'll give you odds he'll lose his CCWpermit. Mudge the incensedps. The gun-grabbers are gonna' be on this one like stink on ----!!!Guess who's gonna' have to pay to get the windows replaced? He is. The insurance company won't pay for damage you did purposely.
    I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS![This message has been edited by mudge (edited 11-29-2001).][This message has been edited by mudge (edited 11-29-2001).][This message has been edited by mudge (edited 11-29-2001).][This message has been edited by mudge (edited 11-29-2001).]
  • steve45steve45 Member Posts: 2,940 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    As I write this Im looking across the street at a burned out bar and a hotel. years ago two guys hurt no one but busted up the bar some, and then ran and jumped into their car to speed away. Idiot inside the bar runs out and tries to shoot the tires out on the vehicle. One of his shots hits a woman lounging around the pool at the hotel and kills her in front of her family. This is why you only get to shoot in immediate defense of your life. One of the first safety rules is to be aware of your backstop when shooting. It would never be safe to shoot into a car in a busy urban area. All it would take is a riccochet off the engine block or a thru and thru on side window glass and you end up with a dead bystander.(that might be me or you!)
  • BullzeyeBullzeye Member Posts: 3,560
    edited November -1
    What if he had shot out the tires and stopped the car sucessfully? Do you think he would have still gotten as much flak?I can see if the guy's kid was in the car or if the guy started driving on the sidewalk or something, but in this case he should have holstered the pistol and found a cop.
  • twinstwins Member Posts: 647 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Bad, even ignorant decision to shoot, but leaving the keys in was not an invitation to steal it. Hopefully the cops are looking for the theives as well but I bet they got their man, the shooter and could care less about the car thief. He should be trained and tested before he is allowed to carry concealed again.
  • Judge DreadJudge Dread Member Posts: 2,372 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    That is what is known as HOLLYWOOD sindromeand no one have sued a MOVIE maker yet .I hope someday they do so we may prevent stupidity become real in real time.
    I judge Thee!, Not for what you are , but for what you say !
  • sandman2234sandman2234 Member Posts: 894 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Ok, what if he had cut across the block, caught up with his car and shot and killed the thief? In the heat of the moment, having a chance to stop a car thief, I might have chased it down, and used a little too much restaint. Does that mean we should just let car thieves steal our cars?
    Have Gun, will travel
  • HAL-9000HAL-9000 Member Posts: 38 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    That guy made a real bad move, now its jail time for him and more fodder for the anti crowd. Now when I lived in Texas it was legal to shoot someone stealing or in the act of trying to steal your car, but thats Texas.laterHAL
  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,696 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This guy sounds pretty dumb--leaving the car parked as he did; and discharging a firearm anywhere in a populated area has its risks and needs to be done with cautions.But on the overall question of using deadly force to stop auto theft--I'd suggest that that people keep in mind that it is pretty safe to conlcude, anytime car theft occurs, that the vehicle is being stolen by a drug addict, or by a criminal intending to use it to commit further crime.Therefore it is safe to assume, the use of deadly force is a direct response to life-threating risks to third parties--either the risks of a drug addict with a two ton weapon threating the other drivers on the road (remember: more than 42,000 people die on our roads every year and the majority of those accidents are the result of vehicle operators under the influence of drugs/alcohol); or the risk of the further criminal activity planned with the vehicle (robbery, drug deals, burglar, rape, etc.).Personally, I've already made up my mind, if I see someone driving off with my truck, knowing the above mentioned, and knowing the additional weapons I usually have in the vehicle, I will be making assessments about the safety of firing any weapon I may have with with me.But then I never leave my vehicles with the keys in them, or even onlocked...
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