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A romantic evening interrupted by SWAT Team entry

idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 14,524
edited January 2004 in General Discussion
Wow. One of my recruits just gave me a call. He and his girlfriend (who happens to also be a recruit of mine) were having a romantic evening alone together complete with a late-night rented movie and a room lit only by candles. The front door was ripped out of its frame by a battering ram and men in black masks and body armor put them on the ground and held shotguns to their faces while the rest of the house was cleared. Apparently the young lady's sister gave too much information over the internet and a prank call was made to the state police stating that she and her niece had been murdered by her older sister and was barricaded in the house with a hostage. All ended well but I'm a little bit ticked off that there was a small amount of alcohol present for these two underage high school seniors. The town cop poured it out on the front yard and scolded them for the booze but took pity on them for their shaken state and decided not to prefer any charges. Wow! That's one for the scrapbook.

Comments

  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    This is the "Patriot Act"!
    They acted on heresay and not "Probable Cause"!

    Get ready Patriots!
    The Revolution, She is a Coming!

    sniper1.gif Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
    http://www.awbansunset.com/
    spn05j5e04xq.gif


    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
  • FrancFFrancF Member Posts: 35,278 ******
    edited November -1
    [:0][:0][:0][:0]
    They will be lucky if it only ends there!

    hsas157x100.gif
    gun1.gif
    Proud Member of
    The Secret Society of
    Black Helicopter Pilots
  • NighthawkNighthawk Member Posts: 13,100
    edited November -1
    It does seem like their rights were violated but they werent.Think about it the Cops had a so called witness to a murder and a hostage was being held in the same place.The PD had to act upon it,and the one who made the false allegations will surely reep the harvest she sowed.She has no idea what she has done,for what ever reason.The teens and Police were the victims of this crime.No real Officer wants to go kicking doors in and takeing a huge risk of getting shot and killed themselves.The person who lied was the one who gave probable cause.But I do understand why people think Police are bad guys.Just like gun owners the media prints what people want to read.Leaveing certain details out isnt makeing a false statement for the media they just dont tell it all in most cases.



    Happy New Year!!

    Rugster


    "Toujours Pret"
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,482 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Cops were only doing their job, and I commend them for letting the two go just because of some alcohol.. They will remember this day!!! And so will the one who called the prank after the law gets done with em'
  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    If there is a hostage situation, isn't protocal to establish contact to save the hostage rather then risk the lives of the hostages by busting down the door?

    I'm sure they didn't break the door down with one swing of the battering ram. If they were hostages, then they might have had a gun to their head at the time or explosives tied around their bodies. And how would the cops know what floor or what room the hostages were in before breaking in?

    It sounds like Local over-zealous cops to me rather then an experianced SWAT team.

    Either this is just plain Wrong or information is missing from the original post.

    sniper1.gif Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
    http://www.awbansunset.com/
    spn05j5e04xq.gif


    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 14,524
    edited November -1
    It was the State Police SWAT team. I'm seeing them tomorrow to do a little soldier training (reading maps, drill/ceremony, etc...). Someone is going to get a little heart-to-heart about the consumption of alcohol.

    RugerNiner--Establish contact first? It depends on the situation. There are parts of this country where a trained hostage netogiator is not readily available. There may not always be time to properly apprise a hostage negotiator on a situation in time for him/her to do their job correctly which could be just as dangerous as a forcible entry.
  • FlatheadFlathead Member Posts: 318 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry but I am not buying it. I think someone is telling a tall tale here. There is no doubt the local authorities would check on the actual situation before busting down a door. If this did happen which I doubt, someone is in deep crap. Having a swat team barge into a house because of something that was passed on the internet is just plain ludicrous
  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 14,524
    edited November -1
    Flathead--The particular individuals involved would NOT call me in the middle of the night to tell me a story like this if it was not true. I know them well.

    The report of the incident was not passed on the internet. Someone related to one of the individuals involved passed on enough personal and family information over the internet to the suspect who made the call to the State Police. That individual knew enough personal information about the family in order to pinpoint where they lived and make a legitimate-sounding report to the police over the telephone.
  • Smokeeater 38Smokeeater 38 Member Posts: 2,735
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by RugerNiner

    I'm sure they didn't break the door down with one swing of the battering ram.



    Some doors can be opened with only one hit. Trailers are ones that only take one hit; the wall around the door looks like it's may come in at times when you hit the door. You are right some take more than one hit if it a good door with a deadbolt properly installed.

    They must have had information that lead them to believe that the entry was necessary to prevent any further loss of life. I feel bad for the kids I now how scary it is to have the guys come in and cuff you.





    Get the job done and come home safe guys.

    I rush in where others flee.
  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 14,524
    edited November -1
    I've been through that doorway MANY times. It is a very cheap door. Yes, it could be taken down with one swing.
  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I was going over my AK-47's and Ruger PC-9gr last night.
    They were Loaded the whole time.

    Had they broken into my house last night there would be a few body bags laying around. I know I don't break any laws and my first reaction would be Headshots.

    I've seen on "COPS" where they have used a battering ram without announcing who they are or announcing "Police" at the same time as using the battering ram, which you might not be able to hear over the noise.

    This was WRONG WRONG WRONG!

    sniper1.gif Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
    http://www.awbansunset.com/
    spn05j5e04xq.gif


    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
  • Horse Plains DrifterHorse Plains Drifter Forums Admins, Member, Moderator Posts: 37,972 ***** Forums Admin
    edited November -1
    R Niner your first post to this thread hit the x-ring.

    One best be loaded, locked, and ready to rock.

    81st FA BN WWII...Thanks Dad
    U!S!A! ALL THE WAY!!
  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Flathead
    Sorry but I am not buying it. I think someone is telling a tall tale here. There is no doubt the local authorities would check on the actual situation before busting down a door...


    I'm suspicious too--yes, I read your response to Flathead, Idsman.

    What adds suspicion is the part about the cop pouring out the alcohol and the suggestion that there could have been charges because of underage drinking. This is nonsense. The police had no authority to be on the scene; anything they would have seen that was illegal would not have been admissible in court.

    Where's the police report on this supposed occurance? If it happened it's a matter of public record.
  • select-fireselect-fire Member Posts: 69,482 ✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Idsman, the skeptical sure do know how to come to the top. Just like oil on top of water. I am with you, I would trust a friends judgement if they called me up and told me it happened.
  • bolthandlebolthandle Member Posts: 1,213 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Just wondering, whos going to pay to fix the door, etc.? This instance could have been a lot worse. If one was to return fire on these intruders, there surely would be return fire and the consequences would be real tragic especially when higher ups found out there wasnt any people murdered there, just bad intel.

    Bolt

    PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER
  • p3skykingp3skyking Member Posts: 25,750
    edited November -1
    There's WMD at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave, Washington D.C. You rekon that door will get kicked in?

    Survellence on a house takes a while. With all the snooping gear, sound enhancers, microcameras, heat-sensing optical devices, someone will knock a door down because of a phone call? No judge would allow that. It's called hearsay.

    If this is true, a door would be the least of the lawsuit.

    What men call a hero...is merely a man who is seen doing what a brave man does as a matter of course.
    A man who is in love with learning is a man who is never without a bride, for there is always more. L'Amour
  • tr foxtr fox Member Posts: 13,856
    edited November -1
    idsman75: IMHO, and all you LEO's and lawyers out there, I'm neither, so feel free to correct me. But I don't think the "town cop" deserves your appreciation for "taking pity on the kids and just pouring out the booze and giving them a lecture". I assume the search warrant the police had stated they were looking for a murder crime scene, a hostage held with weaapons involved. I doubt the search warrant mentioned finding underage kids with booze. Therefore the town cop had no authority to detain, arrest or have prosecuted ANYONE in relation to the discovered booze.

    When guns were invented everything changed. For the first time in the history of the world a frail woman had a chance to sucessfully defend herself and home. My dream is that one of the anti-gun nuts will need a gun for defense and be unable to have one because of their own actions.
  • XracerXracer Member Posts: 1,990
    edited November -1
    Sorry Ids....sounds "fishy" to me.

    I can't think of any police agency that would burst in without assessing the situation first.

    Surround the house, yes. But proceedure in a hostage situation would always be to make a phone call to feel out the situation.

    And.....if they felt they had to make a forced entry in a hostage situation, they would almost always throw in "flash-bangs" first.
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,937 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    You recruited Eric Williams???
  • njretcopnjretcop Member Posts: 7,975
    edited November -1
    I too, feel that someone is getting his chain pulled here! [:D]

    vic.jpg

    Charlie

    "It's the stuff dreams are made of Angel"NRA Certified Firearms InstructorMember: GOA, RKBA, NJSPBA, NJ area rep for the 2ndAMPD. [email protected]
  • IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,912
    edited November -1
    ids, something here don't smell right. I don't know where the truth of the matter lies, but it seems a virtual certainty some facts are missing . . . most likely from all versions.
  • RugerNinerRugerNiner Member Posts: 12,636 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Don't expect the issue of a Warrant to come up.
    Thanks to the "Patriot Act", they are no longer necessary.

    sniper1.gif Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!
    http://www.awbansunset.com/
    spn05j5e04xq.gif


    Keep your Powder dry and your Musket well oiled.
    NRA Lifetime Benefactor Member.
  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 14,524
    edited November -1
    Apparently some folks here need to take a class or two in Constitutional Law. Yes, any alcohol found in plain view incident to the entry (provided that the entry itself was deemed lawful)would have been admissable in court. Theoretically speaking. Maybe I should mention some more anecdotal evidence to describe how local law enforcement and courts freely step all over the rights of the people in some of these rural areas in the great midwest.

    I know the people involved and they have earned my trust over and over again. I'll be heading out to that town (about 70 miles away) tomorrow. I'll stop in at the local PD and verify. I'll wait save my angst for those that would imply that I (or those involved) are liars.
  • FlatheadFlathead Member Posts: 318 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    idsman75, It was never my intent to imply you a liar. You posted what was told to you. The intent of my post was that the facts stated just don't jive with any logical thinking. Like was said in an earlier post, an attempt at some sort of communication would have been done in a potential hostage situation. (you would think)

    I apologize for any misunderstanding.
  • spinyspiny Member Posts: 3,117
    edited November -1
    RugerNiner: Don't ya love the name - 'Patriot' Act. Wonder which patriot 'they' were thinking of?[:(!]

    spiny
    'not all who wander are lost'
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,937 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by spiny

    Wonder which patriot 'they' were thinking of?

    Benedict Arnold?
  • LowriderLowrider Member Posts: 6,587
    edited November -1
    This has nothing to do with the Patriot Act. Cops have been busting down the doors, and even shooting people, of the wrong houses for years; and I don't mean they got the address mixed up with the house they were really supposed to be busting. They serve no-knock warrants all the time based on bogus information given to them by paid informants and other criminals trying to work deals with law enforcement. Then after your door has been smashed in, your house searched and your family handcuffed you might get a "sorry" as they take their leave.

    Lord Lowrider the Loquacious.

    Member:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets

    She was only a fisherman's daughter,
    But when she saw my rod she reeled.
  • DancesWithSheepDancesWithSheep Member Posts: 12,937 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Jermaine Jackson

    This has nothing to do with the Patriot Act. Cops have been busting down the doors, and even shooting people, of the wrong houses for years; and I don't mean they got the address mixed up with the house they were really supposed to be busting. They serve no-knock warrants all the time based on bogus information given to them by paid informants and other criminals trying to work deals with law enforcement. Then after your door has been smashed in, your house searched and your family handcuffed you might get a "sorry" as they take their leave.
  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 14,524
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by Jermaine Jackson


    Oh yer killin me!
  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by idsman75
    Apparently some folks here need to take a class or two in Constitutional Law. Yes, any alcohol found in plain view incident to the entry (provided that the entry itself was deemed lawful)would have been admissable in court.

    The entry as you describe it would not be deemed lawful.

    quote:Originally posted by idsman75
    I know the people involved and they have earned my trust over and over again. I'll be heading out to that town (about 70 miles away) tomorrow. I'll stop in at the local PD and verify. I'll wait save my angst for those that would imply that I (or those involved) are liars.


    What town was this in? What state SWAT team conducted the "raid"? Any local TV news station or paper within a hundred miles of this incident would be all over a story like this. Give us a link.

    And like Flathead said: I don't mean to be implying that you are lying, Ids; I just don't think you've been given the whole story if events actually unfolded as you've described.

    Please post what you find out when you talk with the local police. And if events did unfold as you describe, help get these kids a good lawyer so they can sue the idiot law enforcement officers who conducted such a raid without first verifying information from an annonymous (I assume) phone call.

    Police who would act like this based upon (what you are describing as) nothing but one phone call need to find a different line of work--they need jobs where they won't have any access to guns!
  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 14,524
    edited November -1
    Due to the fact that minors are involved and my access to the information is only by virtue of my position with the Army, I will not name names or reveal the town or the state in which this occurred. My area covers portions of three different states.

    I possess signed releases of information and will be interested, for professional reasons, in the details of the story regarding whether or not there were circumstances leading up to the raid of which I was not informed that may impact the enlistment eligibility of those involved.

    There are a few here that know me better than others. Those that know me and those about whom I actually have genuine concern will believe me due to the virtue of my word after I have verified the afore-mentioned information. As far as doubters are concerned, I could care less.
  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    I understand your position, Ids, but the incident will still be a matter of public record--if it happened.

    Incidents with minors are recorded in police reports every day; the names may be left out, but the events which caused the police to become involved and the specifics of the police response are recorded and are open to any member of the public who wishes to view it.

    On-going investigations can have more limited public access to police records. (And if the police did respond in the fashion you describe to what was a "crank call," I'm sure they will be trying to keep the incident as an "on-going investigation" for as long as they can to "cover their butts"--which is all the more reason you should help to get these kids and attorney if their story is true. Shine the light of public scrutiny on police action like this.)
  • 96harley96harley Member Posts: 4,228
    edited November -1
    The pup don't suck somewhere on this one.

    "Save the Whalers, they need jobs too."
  • TrinityScrimshawTrinityScrimshaw Member Posts: 9,350 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    tr fox,

    It's called (fruits of the crime), and if the LEO's were there legally and the fruits were out in the open there' fair game. They can't go search your underwear drawer looking for a 1956 Harley panhead, but if a stolen 1967 vet is in the garage it's a recovered stolen vehicle.

    Idsman75,

    I would do some checking into this if I were you. What I shudder at most is that any entry team going in under these slim circumstances would have most likely been under a green light situation. Sounds like someone is stretching the facts, or they are altogether wrong. Now, on the other hand this story could have gone down like it was told. This is not a result of the "Patriot Act". The officers were told that a death had already occurred, and that a live hostage was still being held. An entry team may have been warranted under those circumstances, but some more verification should have been done.

    Trinity +++


    "Train up a child in the way he should go, even when he is old he will not depart from it."(Proverbs 22:6)
  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 14,524
    edited November -1
    I spoke with the local police and the female involved today. Apparently the male involved was amped up over the situation and screwed up a few details but the overall story line remained the same. The State Police SWAT team had not yet arrived. The entry team was comprised of county-level LEO's dressed in body armor over their normal duty uniform and were armed with shotguns. The little "romantic evening" was going on in the basement of the house. The female went upstairs to get a glass of water and saw the muzzle of a shotgun through a window directly adjacent to the door. She heard the words "open the f'ing door" yelled by the individual at the door. She did not hear the word "POLICE" at any point in time. She screamed and the door was breeched as described above. By this time the male involved had ascended to the ground floor of the house and both were removed from the house and placed in a prone position while being covered with shotguns at which time the rest of the house was cleared by an entry team. The perimeter of the house was surrounded by additional members of this team.

    The purpetrator has been located in another midwestern state. Apparently a threat was called to the house which the female interpreted as a prank call. This is a tiny little town out in the middle of absolutely nowhere. Things like this just don't happen out there so she didn't take the threat seriously. The purp apparently has some high-tech connections because the phone was immediately disabled after the call. The phone line at the female's house is no longer operational. Investigation has revealed a suspect who has done this to another person recently--another person who he met over the internet from whom he was able to extract enough information to phone in a threat, disable the phoneline somehow and call in a report to the police that something dreadful had happened within the residence. This information was provided to the purpetrator via the internet by the female victim's older sister who has been living there temporarily. It isn't possible to make contact with individuals inside when there is no functioning phone line. Sure, they could have broken a window and tossed in a cell phone. However, the telephonic report made to law enforcement stated that the murderer inside had an infant hostage and was not going to be taken alive. Innocent life was presumed to be in imminent danger. Had these murders actually occured, the LEO's involved would have had to sleep with the possibility of an idditional murder via their inaction had they not acted quickly. That's my interpretation.

    This information was verified with the second party with whom I had not spoken until this morning and also the local police. It was the local police who had actually told the victim to empty the alcohol onto the grass of the front yard in lieu of being charged with an MIP.
    Whether or not the alcohol could have been used against them in court is moot. Leaving the alcohol in possession of the minors would have been irresponsible and immoral in my opinion. I believe that, if a judge deemed the police presence in the home legal, the alcohol would have been admissable as evidence towards an MIP charge.

    I am not here to entertain. Whether or not I decide to protect the identity of the individuals involved is my perogative. Sure, the story may be made a matter of public information. However, names and addresses may be deduced from other sources if I mention the town or county or state where this occurred. I obtained this information through the course of my official duties. I withhold locations and agencies involved because my first loyalty is to my soldiers--not to members of this forum.

    You can decide whether or not I have lied now that I claim to have verified the information throuh multiple credible sources.
  • Smokeeater 38Smokeeater 38 Member Posts: 2,735
    edited November -1
    It sounds good to me.




    Get the job done and come home safe guys.

    I rush in where others flee.
  • competentonecompetentone Member Posts: 4,698 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    quote:Originally posted by idsman75
    It isn't possible to make contact with individuals inside when there is no functioning phone line.


    No cop thought to ring the doorbell or knock on the door while wearing a "pizza delivery uniform" disguise and pretending to be trying to deliver a pizza? I still can't get over the idea that they just decide to bust right in with information from nothing more than just a telephone call? This "crank caller" must be extremely talented to convince police to call out a SWAT team and follow the course of action they did.

    What's the name of this perpetrator who has been located? What city and state is he in? You feel the need to protect the identity of your "recruits" (which is understandable), but I'm sure you won't object to revealing details about the perpetrator? I'm really curious to learn about the techniques he used to remotely disable other people's phones; he's done some extremely serious hacking if he has access to the phone company's codes/data bases to be able to disable phones.

    I did a search looking for published articles about this whole event--I couldn't find any. Ids, email me with some of the details you don't want to post (like the state/county/town where this took place--ask your recruits if they would be interested in talking to any reporters about this?). This has the makings to be the start of one hell of a story; if local media in the area isn't interested in pursuing it, I know some people who might want to write/report about it.

    --Joe
    [email protected]
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