YOU Might Be a Terrorist

Josey1

YOU Might Be a Terroristby Brad EdmondsH.R. 3162, "The Patriot Bill," or the antiterrorism bill, might make you a terrorist. Any persons among us who have accepted that certain civil liberties must be abridged in time of war, or forever, for the sake of security, are going to learn Ben Franklin's lesson the hard way: Those who would give up freedom for security deserve, and will get, neither.First, the antiterrorism bill so loved by Congress and the White House has redefined terrorism. According to Sec. 802, (a)(5)(B)(ii), "the term `domestic terrorism' means activities that appear to be intended to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion." Again: If the activity appears to be intended to influence the policy of a government - not just the United States government - by intimidation, it's domestic terrorism. Most important: Since all we require is intimidation, how would we define that?"Intimidation" does not seem to be defined in H.R. 3162. We thus must turn to authoritative dictionaries, which say such things as "to make timid." Put it in the hands of a trial lawyer, and here's how it could play out: Have you ever felt intimidated by someone smarter, larger, older, wealthier, higher in rank, more attractive, more physically fit, more passionate, or more popular than yourself? That's all it takes to establish intimidation in court - being made timid. Get a jury or judge to buy your version of events, and you win.So while intimidation is a weak criterion, far too easy to establish in a court of law, you don't even have to establish anyone's intent to intimidate, much less his success at intimidating someone. You, the prosecutor, have to establish only the appearance of the intention to intimidate any government, and you can try anyone for domestic terrorism.So, those of us who disagree publicly with the government's responses to 9/11 - especially if our disagreements are reasoned, well-supported, and impassioned - are, by definition, terrorists. The only requirement is that someone, somewhere believes it appears we're trying to intimidate the government. This is an ominous glower over free speech.How ominous? It depends in part on whether you're a foreigner. Suppose a Canadian citizen writes an anti-war column for an American website. Bush signed an executive order on Tuesday, November 13, which allows for any foreigner connected to the events of 9/11 to be tried by military tribunal. This means, among other things, that the trials can be held in secret, defendants do not get the usual protections (such as an extended appeals process), the death penalty is an option, and Bush decides who is tried. If the notion of "connected" is as vague and potentially encompassing as the definition of "domestic terrorism" mentioned above, all foreigners who speak out in disagreement with the US government might have reason to fear suspicion with regard to 9/11.Remember that foreigners aren't alone - H.R. 3162 applies to everyone. Foreigners are singled out only in Bush's executive order. The only difference between foreigners and citizens is the option of the military tribunal.We've all heard how new laws won't function in unintended ways: The Civil Rights Act wouldn't result in hiring quotas; the Americans with Disabilities Act wouldn't result in costly and ridiculous lawsuits (such as the Supreme Court deciding the rules of golf); and the Endangered Species act wouldn't threaten property rights.With such unintended consequences being the rule rather than the exception, be careful not to complain about the amount of your Social Security check or tax liability. Don't complain about emissions regulations. Don't complain about anything the government says or does. According to the definitions in H.R. 3162, your speech (especially if it's cogent) need only criticize the government, and you could stand accused of domestic terrorism.November 15, 2001Brad Edmonds [send him mail], MS in Industrial Psychology, Doctor of Musical Arts, is a banker in Alabama.Copyright c 2001 LewRockwell.com http://www.lewrockwell.com/edmonds/edmonds82.html

Lowrider

"try to influence govt.??"That'd make all lobbyists terrorists then? Maybe there's a bright side to this after all.

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Lord Lowrider the LoquaciousMember:Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets She was only a fisherman's daughter,But when she saw my rod she reeled.[This message has been edited by Lowrider (edited 11-16-2001).]

dakotashooter2

The way I read this if I call my congressmen and tell them I will not vote for them if they vote on a gun bill or any other bill for that matter Ican be considered a terrorist because I am trying to influence government policy with the threat of witholding my vote (coercion).

travelor

And how many people who have read some of my recent posts think I'm paranoid? or just a little fanatical? The Jackboots are coming.

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keep lots of extra uppers for your ar..you can change often enough to keep the thing from over heating...what ever caliber fits the moment..~Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets~

dakotashooter2

I gave this some more thought and wouldn't this make all our politicians terrorists? Politics in the US is using your power and influence or trading votes and doing favors to change laws (Government Policy). I think I might throw that one at my Representative and see what he says.

turbo

I say relax, there is to many people out there that make me wonder whether they are true American Patriots.For instance we all have heard, about the teacher that, burnt the American flag in his class room, and then refered to the United States as the united snakes. or The fact, that there is someone out there send Anthrax spores thru the postal mail system. orThose that, assemble against government policy (such as during the Vietnam war) and march in demonstration that turn violent and then wind up causing property damage.We (those of us that consider ourselves true law abiding citizens) hold, in our ability to cast a VOTE, the power to change government policy, we don't need to resort to "intimidation" or any other tactics to influence government policies.Those that resort to terrorist activities to get their way, are terrorists and ought to be treated as such.These are the ones that really are afraid of such laws as the Patriot Act.So, I say quit worrying and grumbling about what is law and get off your rear ends and vote to change the laws you don't like.Afterall, the real reason we have problems with eroding constitutional liberties, and our present day situation is because we have allowed the liberal bleeding heart left to seat their candidates and in every case have failed to enforce good laws on the books, while continuing to pass law after law that suit there agendas, and skewed viewpoints.Critizing government policies, can hardly be compared to sitting down and planning a demonstration such as the those that disrupt and cause thousands of dollards in property damage to small business owners, and cost city thousands in related expenses for police, fire, ambulance services.It's easier to gripe and complain about government than getting up from watching tv, and writing a letter to ones representative, or going down to the poles on election day.

Judge Dread

The thing is people is so aquited in theirmisserable little agendas they don't want toopen their eyes , I posted well before theintell on the NUKES and not even the FBI cared , they only care about their dammedretirement check , well one thing is for shure,were they will get it from? if the BIGoffice that prints them get NUKED ? were their arrogance will go ? better learn themeaning of KARMA before is too late , tryto bomb heavens and tell GOD is a terrorist?What will happen if IN AFGANISTAN there isa single pure child that prays to alah todestroy america for killing his mother ? 911 is the proof of that,587 is a calling card ,what does it take to awaken to the reality we let our Goverment become an Unholyatrocity no longer in accord with christianvalues and the US CONSTITUTION anymore ? . US Treason to 600,000 Masacred curds 800,000 Africans (tutsis) US manufactured AIDS 40 million dead ! Agents Arrested in Libia For INFECTINGnew born babys with it (Killing Future Terrorist ) or maybe a FUTURE Jesus as kingherod did. ? Us CREATED the taliban and they did not give a SHI** they killed their females untilafter 911 ,nor they give they do it in allALIANCE nations also ,nor they care for civilrights in any of them. US politicians MAINTAIN Fidel Castro in power ,and they don,t want competing democracys in the open market against them. Well now I am a terrorist! , for what ?simple , told it as it is ,no agenda to coverand justify eye for eye black ops to put apetroleum pipeline across afganistan . Else , I don't give a "DUNG" they also took first blood on me a long time ago .. But JUDGES in a sense are GODS ,after theychoose the path of the 33 chambers and reachthe pinacle of Human development ,they alsowarn nations and men to CHANGE their ways...OR ELSE pay the price to DIVINE JUSTICE.

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I judge Thee!, Not for what you are , but for what you say !

travelor

Should I be so bold? I don't think it's just politicians, I think it goes way higher than that...Who signed the bill into law? That was an act of terrorism...I (must repeat myself) am way more terrified by the prospect that I can be detained without a right of fair trial, or evan proper charges being filed against me, just because someone dosn't like what I have to say. Especially when those things are said in the spirit of free speech, uttered by an upstanding American citizen, voicing pro-American values. Much more terrified of that than any act committed or threatened by any terrorist yet.

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keep lots of extra uppers for your ar..you can change often enough to keep the thing from over heating...what ever caliber fits the moment..~Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets~

alledan

I am sure that quite a lot of hellish events will occur because of this bill!Under H.R. 3162 gang members may be a thing of the past. This most likely is the only "good" thing to come about but then again what is the governments idea of a gang-maybe everything where a group of people meet, say your church for instance?Open terminology gives them carte blanche to declare whatsoever they choose as they choose.This is all the beginning of the true end of freedom.

turbo

Allendan, and travelorYour stretching it a bit, concerning people gathering in churches, and being charged as terrorists.Maybe your thinking of churches that gather, for the purpose of planning political conspiracies against the government, in that case I would agree with you, in this case they ought to arrested, and for sure be removed from the tax exempt roles of the non profit corps, which is how churches receive their status.As for christian churches, I can asure you that is not a reason for their assembling themselves, when meeting for worship.In my twenty some odd years as a christian I've yet to hear of someone preaching or spewing hatred from the pulpit, on the contrary, the same old message is preached, day after day, a message of the love of God for his special creation, and of his reaching out to re-establish a relationship with all those willing to consider the message (Now I know there are those that would disagree with me on this matter, those that find this message offensive, and have rejected it out of hand, but the key word is "willing"). I know, you know, what I'm talking about and I know, you've heard the message, if you've grown up in this country, cause this same old message has been preached from the begining.On the other hand, in recent days I've heard of news accounts, reporting that other churches, such as Islamic churchs have had their leaders, reffering to the US as the infidels, and have preached their biblical doctrine concerning all as the children of satan.It seems to me to much is being made of the Patriot Act, and it's perceived infringement into individual freedoms.We need laws that will reign in real fanatics, that if left unchecked, will for sure bring us down, from within.travellor,I guess I didn't read your previous accusations about the president, and other politicos, but rest assured that according to the wording in this (bill) you wouldn't be arrested unless you were trying to: "undermine government policy by intimidation or any other activities construed as terrorist in nature".People in this country are so use to having the freedom to speak out against what they don't like or perceive to be detrimental to their own rights, while ignoring everyone else's rights, so quit being so paranoid, I don't see anything that prevents you from speaking your mind, so long as your not stirring up revolt, or hatred against the government, if you did'nt vote for Geo Bush, that's fine, but he's the duly elected President and you can disagree with his policies, but right now he serves the nation interests, and he appears not only doing a good job, but he's managing this war against terrorism as well as can be managed at this time.I know one thing for sure, I'd sure be more concerned if Sleek Willy, or bearded Al were in office.[This message has been edited by turbo (edited 11-17-2001).][This message has been edited by turbo (edited 11-17-2001).][This message has been edited by turbo (edited 11-17-2001).]

alledan

Lets all hope that HR 3162 is used for it's intended purposes-nailing the true terrorists!Unfortunately there are over zealous people out there in power that would do anything to bolster their careers.We have all seen how far the government will go to achieve certain goals-aka Waco and Ruby Ridge etc.This bill would be a lot more easie to take if the wording wasn't so loose. The way it reads now is that it open season on anyone!I have no grevience in trying to intercept terrorist cells and the fools that lead them.I believe that the American citizenry should have a special exemtion from it less the American teeorist like Aryan brotherhood etc.Pertaining to the church service example, There are preachers who attempt to violate separation of church and state and influence their congregations. You see some of them on television doing this. These people try to "influence" lawmakers via their parishingers to force their brand of religion on a public that really doesn't want it running their lives.Then there are the christian terrorists that go around shooting doctors and destroying abortion clinics. I have a certain hate for abortion and the people who practice it but I will not try to change the system with the gun or device.

travelor

Turbo... your words havn't fallen on deaf ears...I love our Lord Jesus Christ. I am thankful that my sins are washed clean by his blood, which he shed on Calvary, that whomever should believe on him, should not perish, but have life everlasting. I am in awe of him, that he died and rose again in three days, to take his place beside his father, whom art in heaven. He broke the chains of hell. There are those even in governmental positions who strive to support the works of evil, and because of that, I cannot rest easy knowing what is to come... I'm not trying to preach gospel to anyone here, just to witness my beliefs,and show why I feel as strongly as I do...Paranoid? maybe...The Jackboots Are Comming...

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keep lots of extra uppers for your ar..you can change often enough to keep the thing from over heating...what ever caliber fits the moment..~Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets~[This message has been edited by travelor (edited 11-17-2001).]

REBJr

Well, now I guess it's time to pass the offering plate around, dig deep, folks.I think it boils down to respect, I respect your rights to religon,and free speech, but someone who has to constantly spout christianity obviously has no respect for my right to NOT have to hear their brand of "religon" all the time.Or if you like, another instance, "you must respect me and not say the "N" word, but I don't have to respect you, so I'll turn my bumpin' crap up so loud you'll have to listen to it."It's all the same idea,I guess some people just don't get it. I 'suppose they think they're helping me, so that makes it allright-Ralph

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Nothing very, very good or very, very bad lasts for very, very long.

idsman75

Remember the Anita Hill case were the word "harassment" became such a buzzword with the general public? Now EVERYTHING is harassment. I swear. While working in an LEO capacity, I dealt with so many people crying "harassment" that it was nauseating. Things that people used to deal with on their own was being laid on the laps of LEO's. Now the buzzword is "terrorism". I shudder to think of the future impact.

boiled_frog

For those who think the anti-terrorist legislation is 'benigh' to 'law abiding citizen's' I urge you to consider other promises made when we've given up our rights before:Personal Income tax was to finance WWII, it was promised that it would be eliminated.'War on Poverty' that got us the social security system was supposed to help needy americans when times got bad, now SSI approves aid checks for those with substance abuse 'disabilites'.'War on Drugs' was supposed to reduce or eliminate illegal drug use... used now as an excuse to kick in doors and machine gun those who resist just by using the magic word 'drug raid' on an arrest affidavit. And reading the rhetoric of the times that GAVE us the war on drugs it's much the same as that of the war on terrorism rhetoric now. We give up territory all the time, but only a few people labeled as 'fanatics' and 'whackos' really acknowledge the danger is represents to our way of life.Think your christian church is immune to governmental jurisdiction? Is your church approved by the government? I'm speaking about tax-free status, you accept secular regulations because even the bible says to - but to accept secular LICENSE... No, the question isn't one of 'paranoid' vs 'patriot' the question has been and always will be:How do we (the government) divide and conquer the american people so that we may seize more and more control of their lives away from them, only to hand it back to them in the form of license and privilege?"

travelor

REBJr, my remarks were in response to Turbo, as he directed part of his to me..friendly conversation. if you read all of mine, you'd see that I stated my possition in the second paragragh. I don't try to push my beliefs. Are you American? If so, than accept my appologies if I offended your right to freedom of religion by exorsizing my freedom of speach. I don't try to prevent people from listening to loud music. I just don't listen, if I don't care for it. I didn't tell you what to believe, just said what I believe....I don't go around "spouting Christianity" either. The FEW times I have talked about my belief on this forum, have all been in responce to someone elces comments. And that is what "forum" is all about. Lets just try to celebrate Freedom. You have yours, and I mine. If that doesn't suit you, than go find what you are asking for somewhere less tolerant of those freedoms, sounds like you'd probably be more at home there...

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keep lots of extra uppers for your ar..you can change often enough to keep the thing from over heating...what ever caliber fits the moment..~Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets~

REBJr

Travelor:It was not directed at you, or anybody in particular. SEE POST: BAD DAY by me for insight. Somedays I can take it better than others. It seems since 9-11 people have been going out of their way to push religion on me, they come to my house, ask me at dinner in the local diner, at walmart, its wearing really thin is all. They all seem to spout that the second comming is near due to 9-11 and the blood of the Martyrs crying out, all they have to do is read it, i have, and it says certian things have to happen, well, of 10, we are up to about #3, at this rate we will leave earth for the stars before he comes back! anyway, not personal, no need to apologize. we're still friends if you want to be-Ralph

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Nothing very, very good or very, very bad lasts for very, very long.

Mom Mom

While the wording may leave virtually anyone who votes open to a charge of terrorism, the fact is that at the present time, the government has it's hands full trying to keep up public support for its policies. If for some odd reason, they suddenly decide they have enough time, money and manpower to go find terrorists under every rock, they will have to stretch P-R-E-T-T-Y far to convince the public majority that everybody next door is a terrorist. The door may be open for the "jackboots", but before they hit the front step they will be voted out of office. We are still a democracy, and ruled by the vote of the majority.I really think that the intent of the bill is to cut through the red tape of the bureuacratic justice sytem to allow swift action against those who would continue to fly into buildings and manufacture anthrax.I would be extremely interested in documented PROOF that the US manufactured AIDS and infected foreign children with it. Would these be the same foreign children we are air dropping food too? the same ones we fund a Peace Corp to help improve their living conditions? I thought AIDS was a virus that occured among the monkey populations of Africa, and crept into the human population via some "alternative" adult practices, then rapidly spread through the gay population in the age of 70's promiscuity. At least that is the basic story presented in "And the Band Played On", by Randy Shilte (sp?). The only whiff of a "government" plot was/is the reluctance of the government to fund research on treatment measures early on, due to the misconception that it was a "gay mans disease."

travelor

REBJr, of coarse I would honor your friendship...Hate is a hard thing for me to live with. I am very careful who gets any of that from me. I have always been a bit outspoken, stepped on a few toes, (some on purpose) and stirred the pot my share of times..But I always respect peoples' right of opinion, Even if I don't like what they think, or say. And frankly, I never appreciated anyone trying to force me to except their point of view, especialy religious zealots. And yes, I know exactly what you mean about the changes in attitude from day to day. I'm always Glad to be able to discuss Issues here, the differences in oppinion are quite exilerating at times. And I should add, sometimes insightful..

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keep lots of extra uppers for your ar..you can change often enough to keep the thing from over heating...what ever caliber fits the moment..~Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets~