(found this elsewhere) Branch Davidians weapon list

Josey1

Branch Davidians weapon list These folks were getting ready for something to go down. FIREARMS Rifles and Rifle Components 61 M-16 Type and 2 M-16 Lower Receivers 61 AK-47 Type 34 AR-15 Type and 2 AR-15 Lower Receivers 13 Shotguns -- 12 gauge 11 7.62MM FN FAL Type 10 Mini-14 Type 7 37mm. Flare Gun/Launcher Type 6 .30 Carbine Calber US Carbine, Model M1 6 Assorted Rifles 5 M-11/Nine 5 M-14 Type 3 Galil 2 Heckler and Koch SP-89 1 Air Rifle 1 Heckler and Koch MP-5 1 Sten submachine gun Pistols and Revolvers 23 Beretta 13 Glock 8 Assorted Revolvers 6 Safari Arms 6 Assorted Pistols 5 Sig Sauer 5 Walther 2 Taurus EXPLOSIVES Hand Grenades 4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades 100+ Modified M-21 Practice Hand Grenade bodies; the bodies of these had been threaded and plugged but lacked a main charge or fusing system. 11 M-69 Practice Hand Grenades; the bodies of these grenades exhibited indications of attempted modifications. 219 Grenade Safety Pins 243 Grenade Safety Levers Rifle Grenades 200+ Inert M31 Practice Rifle Grenades.

Big Sky Redneck

And that is why they are dead. BATF was scared.

scott5792

As you all know .I'm not a religious man.But did the BATF approve your church today?Scott

andersk

With an arsenal like that, those folks were doing more than church ... a lot more. I don't think our church is in much danger from the ATF. When I look at the video of the final mess, it sure looks like they brought on their own demise! Gotta play according to the rules.

offeror

A lot of small arms, and I'm no fan of the Davidians, but I notice no mention of a .50 caliber of any kind, which was made so much of at the time, and only a couple of apparently full-auto submachine guns, and then there are the handful of live hand grenades (most on the list appear to have been inert). Certainly enough illegal arms for a BATF law enforcement action of some kind, but not significant enough to start a seige, taken by itself. They did not have anything like enough armament to defend against any serious paramilitary op, especially one with armored vehicles, which I must say is surprising. A lot of little guns...Initially, there was the assertion of a full-auto .50 inside the compound, but that "turned into" a single-shot and then finally evaporated altogether somewhere along the way. Here's a case where religious fanaticism got the better of common sense. If Koresh hadn't primed them all to expect Armageddon, this could have been a simple law enforcement transaction. A bunch of little kids get burned up so that "his people" wouldn't see Koresh (not his real name) led away in cuffs for a stupid weapons violation. Sad. Arrogance is a dangerous thing, sometimes...I'm certainly open to new info on this matter, which from time to time comes out, but the short version of my conclusion is that "Americans deserve a chance to walk out alive, no matter if they've been brainwashed." The FBI may have been entitled to 'get their man' in front of a jury of his peers, but nobody had the right to torch the place with tear gas while the fire trucks were held miles behind the lines and families still locked inside the compound. Whoever gave that order had clearly made up his or her mind that any loss of life was acceptable in order to win quick. That's what I object to. I don't believe the deaths of American children were a complete surprise to those who made the decisions. I think somewhere along the line they became blinded to the importance of the fact that they WERE American citizens in there, American families. As if we hadn't learned not to cross that line when Weaver's wife was hit by a sniper. What was that about, one sawed off shotgun, if I recall? These guys have got to figure out a way to handle these things without collateral damage to innocent Americans, especially women, children, elderly relation, and so on. If the perp is inside alone and violently resists uniformed LEOs, then if the tear gas burns the house, it's defensible. But when there are others inside, the LEOs at all levels of government need to understand that we Americans generally don't approve of innocents getting offed because they're tired of waiting for a better resolution.

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"The 2nd Amendment is about security, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."

Txs

I have knowledge of the red extended cab Ford 4X4 pick-up that towed the cattle trailer to the front door of the Davidian compound. It was disabled during the initial firefight and when inspected later by non-government employees it was seen to have a LARGE diameter hole through the transfer case.I don't know where this weapons list came from or how complete it is, but it's missing whatever did that.

S&W Man

And another interesting fact. All of the "Full auto" guns, according to the metalurgist that examined them, had been configured for semi-auto and modified to full auto AFTER the fire that comsumed the compound.

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The second admendment GUARANTEES the other nine and the Constitution!

Evil ATF

S&W Man:Thank you for bringing that up. You beat me to it! The Davidians did not have any Classs III items in the church!This has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt and is documented. With an arsenal like that, those folks were doing more than church ... a lot more. I don't think our church is in much danger from the ATF. When I look at the video of the final mess, it sure looks like they brought on their own demise! Gotta play according to the rules.Who the Hell are you to say how many firearms someone can own!? Do you have any idea how many people were in that church?I have more firearms per capita than each Davidian did. Do I deserve to have my women and children slaughtered?You need to read up on the subject before you open your mouth. Try looking at the facts of the case instead of what CNN jammed down your throat. Sheeple...they'll never learn.

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Stand And Be Counted

Evil ATF

Click here and learn something:Don't Forget Our Fallen Christian Brothers And Sisters

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Stand And Be Counted

whiteclouder

Not one Browning Hi-Power in the lot. I knew this dude had no class. Soon's I laid eyes on 'im, I thought, "Trailer trash." Clouder..

cb1100f

David Koresh or Vernon Howell as his parents named him wasn't a "gun nut" just a NUT!It wasn't the number of guns that got peoples attention,but his philosphy on women,children and the relative unimportance of their lives.I love my country,I distrust my government!

BlueTic

Go Evil!!!! it's getting really boring listening to these so called factual lists. Who counted the guns? Then who modified them? and what the hell good was the Sten - never even used it - not a great toy anyway.

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IF YOU DON'T LIKE MY RIGHTS - GET OUT OF MY COUNTRY (this includes politicians)

RugerNiner

The Government would never lie to us. Just ask any Indian. Also there were no Rugers listed, so they couldn't be serious about a Revolution.

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Remember...Terrorist are attacking Civilians; Not the Government. Protect Yourself!

OLD SF-ER

I happen to live about 15 miles from Mt. Carmel, where the Davidiot travesty happened.Vernon Howell could've been arrested easily outside their compound; he played his horrible rock music at local bars most every weekend. The ATF wanted to make a statement with his public arrest, and in the process got their * kicked. I agree with others; in reviewing all the video tapes on the fire fight, not one automatic weapon was heard firing. I also know that the ATF made a grave error climbing on the roof. I've been through "urban warfare" training, and the #1 rule is never get on a roof when live fire is under you! No one will ever know what all they had there, the FBI and ATF made sure of it by burning and scraping the ground. The place now looks like a bombed out area. I'm sure not siding with Howell (Koresh) it's a sad case - all those children lost their lives due to human stupidity.

thunderbolt

Funny thing. Tie up a murdering Afgan prisoner and you're a world class evil doer.Murder some American kids and their families and you can run for governor.

offeror

Evil --You are right about the weapons per capita thing. I've got enough to account for my fair share of such a number, and I'm not planning any civil disobedience or Armaggedon either. As for the big hole in the pick-up, could it have been made by a Brenneke slug?

travelor

How do know that the large whole in the transfer case wasn't done by a BATF weapon?How do we know that the live traing gernades wern't planted by someone who had access to such things?

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keep lots of extra uppers for your ar..you can change often enough to keep the thing from over heating...what ever caliber fits the moment..~Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets~

S&W Man

WHO modified the guns after the fire? Well WHO had them? They were in the possesion of only one agency from the time they were taken from the burned out remains till the metalurgist got them for examination. If they were so terrible, than what am I and many others? If you figure out how many guns per adult there were in the compound, then they didn't have much compared to me or to many others. The Mt Carmel episode was nothing more than a frame up by the BATF to try to make a show. Who knows who will be next, it could be ant one of us that they want to make a false case against. They are an out of control agency trying to accomplish a liberal, socialist agenda for others and don't care what they do. They have trampled on so many people already that it is disgraceful. And I believe that they have compiled more info than any of us imagine, especially from states that haveidiotic registration schemes. EVERYONE with a CCw is on their records, that I am sure of. I got out of Komunist Michigan cause I got tired of their "gun registration scheme" called saftey inspection. They know too much about many of my firearms and I will bet that the BATF has those same records. With them ANYONE can be next, church, person, buisness these titles meean nothing to the BATF and what they want to aaccomplish, no more than the law does.Excuse me whilst I climb down off my soapbox.

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The second admendment GUARANTEES the other nine and the Constitution!

OLD SF-ER

Here's some interesting reading on the reports filed by the Texas DPS on the Branch Davidians: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/public_information/branch_davidian/ This was published in 1999.

glb243

Hey Josey, where'd you get this info? Janet Reno??? If you want to see something really scary, check out the list of firearms that the BATF justified their Ruby Ridge campaign on.

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Aim small...Miss small

PDF.44

I know there are a lot of good leo's, but it is a sorry s-o-b that would follow an order to fire into a building where childern reside.

AR 15

Evil, I must say when this 1st happened I thought they got what they deserved, but I was just a kid, had just turned old enough to own guns, but I think you for posting some of the stuff you have, as I now realize they didn't deserve it. The BATF SUCKS !!!!!

simonbs

Thunderbolt - right on.

travelor

Based on the link posted by Old sf-er, I see diagrams and technical data that would seem to indicate that the rounds fired at the complex were oddly enough the same as those listed on the "discovered weapons " roster as inert training gernades or other projectiles.....

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keep lots of extra uppers for your ar..you can change often enough to keep the thing from over heating...what ever caliber fits the moment..~Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets~

Evil ATF

Thanks for the support, gentlemen. I'm always glad to open some eyes.

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Stand And Be Counted

offeror

Personally, I thought the aerial nightscope or infrared video was pretty convincing evidence that there were teams around the compound shooting people in doorways. You could even see the little flames when they fire. It looked like a pretty organized night operation to me with offensive/containment objectives. The govt's explanation of the bursts as reflections, glints, or miscellaneous heat sources was not persuasive. I've never had any doubt there were "black op" elements to that business, if not a coordinated secret operation. Why they thought a kooky priest with some brainwashed followers rated anything like the kind of special operation normally reserved for matters of national security is beyond me. It reminded me of Harrison Ford watching a Delta team take out the terrorist training camp by satellite in CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER. Except they managed to snuff a bunch of American kids in Texas. Again, I'm not anti-gov, in fact I'm a good conservative Republican who has done work on defense contracts, and I know Howell needed to be taken down and a few illegal arms maybe confiscated. I just think this was a blatant exercise in how NOT to strategize that scenario. Is it any wonder we don't think much of the BATF? We watched them overreact, probably provoke the firefight, then storm the place and get themselves shot, all for a matter that was mostly misdemeanors and administrative courtroom stuff, at least on their end. Then the FBI and some paramil types come in and start jacking up the ante like they were playing the Israelis raiding Entebbe -- except they burned it down instead, with incompetence if not with a match. But I think it was the tear gas, and I think they knew it would burn. That's bad strategy, probably fueled by people who should have remained cool and smart getting emotional and dumb. Sorry, a bit of a rant there.

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"The 2nd Amendment is about security, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."

Mercury

Lesson: Don't make the BATF look like idiots. Thats what Koresh did when they holed up.....made them look terrible.Sigh.Merc

dheffley

My understanding is, every gun they owned was legally purchased. Even if they wern't, There is no excuse to serve a warrent like that. Especially where women and children are. Loyd Benson (former Texas Senator) was head of the Treasury Department, and Klinton was the President. I believe to this day, they got together to try do a "Big Time" bust, and Benson used his old Texas connections to find out where a large cache of guns would be. I think they were going to use this like a dog and pony show to sway public opinion. It sure swayed mine!PS Good info Evil!

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Save, research, then buy the best.Join the NRA, NOW!Teach them young, teach them safe, teach them forever, but most of all, teach them to VOTE!

palongrifles

If you have ANY questions about the inappropriateness (if not downright oppressive and reactionary) methods of the BATF and Reno's Gestapo in responding to politically incorrect "threats to order and safety" review their conduct in the Elian matter (the cuban kid). A circuit judge RULED THAT RENO could not act. She did anyway. Moreover, she sent in her FBI and BATF Gestapo fully armed for a major battle complete with automatic weapons, body armor, backup, etc etc. They came in the wee hours of the morning when everybody was asleep, kicked in doors, held submachine guns in the faces of parents and children, and TOOK that kid away from the relatives IN CONTEMPT OF COURT. All that oppressive firepower and Gestapo tactics over what? One little boy rightfully staying with relatives after his mother died fleeing an oppressive SOCIALIST country. The excuse they gave for that completely terroristic and oppression of Constitutional rights was that they "believed" some of the folks "might" have been armed. In point of fact, Reno was pissed because the courts had told her to go pound sand as the Constitution provides and the law allows). That was politically incorrect and could not stand. So she sent in the troops so she could kidnap the kid and send him back to Communist Cuba. After that, how can anybody have any doubts about the agendas our Gov might have in store for us?

palongrifles

Even stranger YET, Reno wants to run for Governor of the very state and over the very people she illegally committed armed assaults on. Can you imagine? She runs for Governor of FLORIDA???????????? Does she really think ANYBODY would vote for HER in Florida after what she did? If that doesnt tell the world she is one completely nutso dyke, nothing can.Think about it though folks? When was the most firepower ever called into play? Taking down a big drug lord? Going after armed terrorist cells within our country? To stop the flow of illegal aliens into the country? Nope. Overwhelming overt military type assaults were made on citizens or groups of citizens who defied the politically correct agenda in a public way - within their legal rights and according to Constitutional provisions. Welcome to Germany in 1933.

Evil ATF

All I can say is that the time to Stand And Be Counted gets closer and closer each day.For the record, I believe that it was the Us Marshalls and INS that kidnapped Elian, not the usual jokers in the BATF. However, it's entirely possible that BATF agents were "deputized" for that evening only to act as Marshalls. As they are both Federal agaencies, this would be legal, if not unjust.However, bear in mind that this is only conjecture on my part.(Edited For Typos. My Office Keyboard Sucks! )

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Stand And Be Counted[This message has been edited by Evil ATF (edited 04-06-2002).]

palongrifles

INS, BATF, FBI, US Marshalls......maybe some or maybe all. Does it really matter what the gold lettering says on their blue windbreakers? There are all Gov orgs, were armed to the teeth as one poster said "like the Israelis in the Entebbe raid", and were assaulting US civilians going about their lawful business - but politically INCORRECT business. In the case of Ruby Ridge, they entrapped the guy by repeatedly enticing him to make two sawed off shotguns - he refused a number of times but then gave in. In short, he broke the law AT THEIR BEHEST when he had no intention of doing so if left alone to his own council. They trumped up a charge because they didnt like his politics and his lifestyle. That was a SINGLE FAMILY that had chosen to live without government "help" or "benefits" because they felt Government had become too oppressive. They entrapped him solely so they could squash him. Instead of coming up to his door in a lawful way with a warrant to arrest him, they surrounded his property with heavily armed men and "surveiled" him. No warrant = trespassing. No identification = armed men posing a threat to a family in a remote area. His only real offense had been to make it known in a public way his feelings about oppressive government and remove himself from that oppression peacefully. For that, they killed his wife with his child in her arms. They killed his son - shot him in the back - which was what started it all.

Big Sky Redneck

I have but one question. Why is it we never hear opposition against the jack boots except for places like this. Sure we all know what they really are and what they want but why is it that we never see a big movement against them or why isnt the media all over this. The media loves a conspiracy, or does this one go against the media's aganda?

guns-n-painthorses

Looking back on the Waco thing, Maybe we (all gun owners) should have surrounded the ATF while they surrounded the compound. If reno thinks she can win in Fla. she better hope no one remembers the photo of the little boy with the H&K in front of him. If I was to run against her, all I would do is show that photo with the name RENO under it for 30 seconds a crack on tv.

farranger

The liberals laughed at the conservatives and the marines during Vietnam when it was said, "We had to destroy the village in order to save it." Tell me how this is different from Janet Reno testifying before congress that it was necessary to go in because there was rumored to be child abuse." She then sent in tanks after tear gas, which experts say "is absolutely flammable". These children were killed to save them from abuse at the hands of David Koresh. We had to kill them to save them, cept it's liberals trying to convince the conservatives and voters that it makes sense. draw your own conclusions, but mine is that Janet Reno is using oxygen that could legitimately be used by a snake, a turtle or a human being.

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freedom isn't free

travelor

I'm nobody.... I'm just another American Slave, that watched the whole Wako incident unfold, and had a very bad gut feeling about all of it as it occured. And from the day the fire started on, I KNEW that I could never trust our government again. The sad results of Wako may have served a great purpose in the grand scheme of things after all, if enough people saw what I did, the horrible truth that we are not free to practice our beliefs as we have always believed, but instead that we are subjects of a brutal tyrant; then maybe enough will have come to the realization that it is indeed time for a chage. Can we all stand united, to be counted?

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keep lots of extra uppers for your ar..you can change often enough to keep the thing from over heating...what ever caliber fits the moment..~Secret Select Society of Suave Stylish Smoking Jackets~