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A sad day for Artillerymen

RedlegRedleg Member Posts: 417 ✭✭✭
edited March 2002 in General Discussion
An artilleryman's worst nightmare occured yesterday at Ft Drum, NY. One or two 105mm howitzers "shot out" and hit the battalion's mess tent, killing two soldiers and wounding over 15 more.Details are sketchy at this time, but I know, from experience, that the Fire Direction Officer (FDO) and section chiefs are under intense scrutiny and could face criminal charges. Soldiers die, but they should never die at the hands of friendly troops.Murphy's law of combat:Friendly fire, ain't.Brian[This message has been edited by Redleg (edited 03-22-2002).]
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  • TxsTxs Member Posts: 17,809 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    An idiot I once knew anded up on a 105 crew. I heard he got hammered for a scewup, but don't know enough about howitzers to know if it's BS. He supposedly fused a round that blew just after it left the muzzle and injured several in his crew. Knowing this fool I'd believe anything, but is this type of accident possible, and if so-how?[This message has been edited by Txs (edited 03-22-2002).]
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Thank God instrumentofwar is in Kosovo right now instead of Fort Drum.My prayers are with the 10th Mountain Division today.
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  • Jake13FJake13F Member Posts: 14 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    im just hopin it wasnt any of my forward observer buddies out there. damn shame
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  • IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Brian, can you explain in simple squid language how (as best you know from the info available) this could occur? Wrong / defective fuze in the proj? Wrong / defective propellant charge? Something went wrong w/ the tube or aiming? "hot out" conjures up an image of the piece exploding.[This message has been edited by Iconoclast (edited 03-23-2002).]
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  • instrumentofwarinstrumentofwar Member Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Iconoclast- as I consider myself the local "FIST GOD" (13fister may know a "bit" also ) let me take a stab at this one. Redleg as a current FDO maybe you have a bit more insight on the plotting/guns side of the house.I'm not currently at Drum, but having fired from every O.P. on the place, I'm a bit familiar with the territory. "Shot-out" is more of a generalized term to describe when the projo dosen't impact where it's supposed to. This could be from a number of different variables.When you fire there are generaly 3 different checks. First you've got the FO on the hill, who sends up the data. His FSNCO is there when it's called up to the FDC (check one)The FDC starts to determine the firing data with a plethora of variables (don't ask....there's ALOT!) If at this point the fire misson is out of safety a flag is thrown(check two)After FDC computes this data it is sent to the gun line, who in turn set the QE&AZ, the gun chief verifies the data on the tube and bumps it with his safety T's(check three)Gun go BOOM. In my years of experience, the most common mistake is with charge error(too many bags or too few) which results in short or long rounds on the GT line.
    When in doubt...."FRAG OUT!"
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  • instrumentofwarinstrumentofwar Member Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Jake 13F-who are your "fister buddies" at Drum?
    When in doubt...."FRAG OUT!"
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  • RedlegRedleg Member Posts: 417 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Sorry it took me a while to respond, I was out training my lab.A major oversight has to occur for a piece to shoot out. Usually, when one piece is involved, it is that section chief's f-up. The section chief has to verify the proper shell/fuze combination and the correct powder charge to use.The 105 is called "semi-fixed" ammunition. The projectile sits in the casing, in which there are 7 charge incrememnts or "zones". The number-one man "cuts the charge" by pulling how ever many bags out of the shell, and lets them dangle there. The section chief then verifies the correct charge, tears off the extra increments, and hands them to the ammo dog, who runs to a pit and holds the charge over his head. This is the most sure-fire way of verifiying the correct charge.Some units pre-cut their charges before they pull into a firing position, which is a huge safety concern. Say you are a section chief and you know you are going to be shooting charge 4 all day. So, back where you drew ammo, you make all your projos charge 4. Through the course of a day, the FDO sends down a charge 5 mission and you, who has been so used to shooting charge 4, ram one home and you have a short round.The other errors are less common, but equally as dangerous. They are quadrant elevation and deflection errors. The FO sends a fire mission to the guns, and in his call for fire, he gives direction to the target in mils (a circle has 6400 mils), which is an azimuth. Howitzers aim on something called a deflection. Without getting into it, a conversion has to be applied to get deflection, which can be a source of error.I had one scare while at the NTC. I was an FDO for a Paladin battery and we got an emergency fire mission while on the move. We stopped the guns and I computed the fire mission. It passed all the safeties, but I noticed, about a split second before it would be too late, that the computer operator transposed a couple numbers in the target location. We would have shot out by over 7 kilometers and it would have landed in C/1-23 Infantry's perimeter. I remember that because my brother was in that company on that exact day. I could have killed him and a lot more.Whew! That was long winded. I include a picture of some hoo-ah artillery *, to pick your spirits back up.Brian
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  • TrinityScrimshawTrinityScrimshaw Member Posts: 9,350 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Gentelman, I'm glad to see that you are talking about this. My entire office spent all day Wednesday working on this investigation. While I can't be specific here due to it's under investigation status, I can tell you that that it does not appear criminal. It was a horffic accident that should not have happened. No tent was hit. A MKT field mess facility & mess tent was very close to the impact, that sprayed the soldiers who were nearby eating morning chow with shrapnel. The unit that fired the guns was not the same unit that took the hit, but both are from the 10th Mountain Div. One soldier died at the scene, and one the next day. It looks pretty good for the others, but they are still some severe injuries. Keep them all in your prayers. When I can I'll let you know more.Trinity+++
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  • Jake13FJake13F Member Posts: 14 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    just the guys I went to ait with. Last i knew they were at drum but i could kick my * for not keeping in contact better.
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  • IconoclastIconoclast Member Posts: 10,515 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    IoW & Redleg, thank you *very* much for the detailed answers! My confusion was obviously due to my ignorance in this area and I appreciate you taking the time to bring me some enlightenment. I'm very sorry that the impetus was such a tragic event.
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  • 6MMX2846MMX284 Member Posts: 55 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    Redleg- thanks for the Paladin picture, thats my baby! Hated to hear about the other soldiers, as a fellow artilleryman and chief that does strike home. My prayers are with them. When you pulled over for your firemission were you in a Paladin? I was courious how the 7 clicks came about. Did you force the grid coordinates or did the mission come from your higher ups? When we receive a mission it usually comes in with grid coordinates, perhaps we may force shell and fuse combination based on what is in our inventory, with a Paladin I would not think you recieved the mission voice. I just wanted to know to prevent this from happening in our own unit. Thanks for your time..swishman....ooooooossssssshhhhhhaaaaaa.
    In God We Trust...All Others Cash!
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  • RedlegRedleg Member Posts: 417 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    6 Mike Mike...I was the FDO at the time. If you've ever been to the NTC, you know that FM comms are shaky at best.We were in the norther corridor and my battery was actually in a minefield breech lane when the mission came down.I filled out the safety card and handed it to the OC who checked with the starship (NTC exercise control) to see if the mission was good. While he was doing that, my computer operator was typing in the grid to his BCS.When the mission came back "green" from the OC, I turned to the chief and just about said "send it" when I noticed that the computer operator had transposed the numbers. We fixed the problem before the mission went out. Charge 7 Red Bag, High Angle, HE/PD was our standard method of engaging emergency targets. Awesome sight.I am going to truly miss the guns when I leave the Army this summer. Nothing like the smell of wolf pu$$y in the morning to get the blood flowing!Brian
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  • instrumentofwarinstrumentofwar Member Posts: 1,545 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    Redleg- You guy's fired high angle as a unit sop? I have been light my whole career so I can't say that I'm familiar with all the goings on in a SP unit, but all the arty units I'v ever shot have used low angle for fire missions, unless you req high angle with your c.f.f. or with your subs? Just wondering.
    When in doubt...."FRAG OUT!"
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  • RedlegRedleg Member Posts: 417 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    IOW,In an SP unit, you are always on the go, so when you get an emergency CFF, you don't have time to look outside and see if you're behind a mountain. We used charge 7 redbag most of the time because it is the highest charge you can shoot DPICM or copperhead with.You're going to ask then, why HE/PD? Because when you shoot high angle, there is a large probability of error in range, so a time fuze (on DPICM) will not work. So, we just slap a PD fuze on the end of a M-107 HE round and start humping those joes. It might not be accurate, but it's rounds on the ground, which will keep the bad guys' heads down until some adjusted fire can kill them.Brian
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  • 6MMX2846MMX284 Member Posts: 55 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    All this artillery talk makes me want to swab my chamber!!!!!!!!!
    In God We Trust...All Others Cash!
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  • idsman75idsman75 Member Posts: 13,398 ✭✭✭
    edited November -1
    6MMX284--You don't want to have your chamber swabbed. It's painful! I speak from experience from my "younger days" of carousing with a woman with a questionable background. Swab results were good but VERY painful.
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  • 6MMX2846MMX284 Member Posts: 55 ✭✭
    edited November -1
    idsman75 thanks for the detail, I think?? Will just keep the breech closed and my muzzle cover on..swishman
    In God We Trust...All Others Cash!
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