Ted "the turd" Turner

alledan

Providence, Rhode Island-AP -- C-N-N founder Ted Turner is again talking his way into some controversy.He told an audience at Brown University in Rhode Island last night that the terrorists who flew planes into the World Trade Center "were brave, at the very least."He also said, "The reason that the World Trade Center got hit is because there are a lot of people living in abject poverty out there who don't have any hope for a better life."According to the Providence Journal, Turner asked for a show of hands from those who would act as suicide bombers for their country. No hand was raised.Turner also referred to President Bush as "like another Julius Caesar." And he had praise for Cuban dictator Fidel Castro.Brown University is Turner's alma mater. He was kicked out in 1960 for having a girl in his room -- and was finally awarded his undergraduate degree 12 years ago.

mudge

It was obvious where his sympathies lay when he married the "American Traitor *"."......and the horse he rode in on".Mudge the disgusted

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I can't come to work today. The voices said, STAY HOME AND CLEAN THE GUNS!

guns-n-painthorses

Hey now Mudge, Leave the horse out of it!Scott the horseman! (HI Mudge)

thebutcher

The terrorists attacked us for a lot of reasons and one is because people are enflamed about our standard of living. I don't think Turner was saying they were right to do it. He may be a weiner, but I don't see too much wrong with what he said on this post.

niklasal

Saxon, Butch...Right on, you got my vote. Seeing things from all points of view is neccesary to form a valid opinion - even if you are the one with a bloody nose.

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NIKLASAL@hotmail.com

badboybob

Saxon those terrorists were not brave. They were insane and all the islamic extremists are insane too. No rational person wants to commit genocide, the insane idiots of 9/11 did want to, and may they roast in the hottest corner of hell.

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PC=BS

thebutcher

I don't see any reason why one can't think that they will rot in hell and that they were brave. If you walk up to Mike Tyson and punch him in the gut, for any reason, you are a brave man.

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The definition of an "expert":An "X" is an unknown quantity and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.

niklasal

I'd have to differ with you here butch. If you walk up to mike tyson and punch him in the face, I wouldn't call you brave, I'd call you stupid

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NIKLASAL@hotmail.com

offeror

I saw an interview yesterday with a Palestinian girl who justified the suicide bombings of Israeli supermarkets and night clubs by saying, in essence, "we're small; it's the only way we have to fight." With that kind of rationalization, terrorism ought to sell like hotcakes in the 3rd world if it seems to pay off. In the late 50s there was a popular intellectual debate about whether "the end justifies the means," and at the same time Ayn Rand's notion of the "virtue of selfishness" got a lot of serious consideration. But finally both concepts were discredited, and today Rand is largely considered a crackpot whose philosophy led nowhere.People die for what they believe all the time, but some of their 'causes' are pretty barbaric. You can go bravely to the chair for being a serial killer and a cannibal, for example. It really doesn't matter to me if somebody thinks they died bravely if they're morally bankrupt. I've said here before what I think of people who try to make their problems more important than your problems or my problems. Selfish arrogance may lead to a "brave" death, but somebody once asked what the point is of gaining your whole world if you lose your soul in the process. If there is such a thing as human rights, and a basic concept of good and evil, then there is also such a thing as being bravely criminal, bravely unethical, bravely barbaric, bravely psychotic, and bravely dead. For the bad guys, I prefer they bravely kill themselves without taking innocents with them. Not only does the end NOT justify the means, sometimes the means discredits the cause, utterly and completely. The word bravery implies a virtue, but when it's based on self-deceived rationalization I think it's an empty gesture and a setback for the cause that initiated it. That makes the dead terrorist a fool, whatever else he may be.

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"The 2nd Amendment is about defense, not hunting. Long live the gun shows, and reasonable access to FFLs. Join the NRA -- I'm a Life Member."

interstatepawnllc

Offeror, succinctly put. Bravo.

Shootist3006

Butcher, you said that you don't seetoo much wrong with turner's statements - WOW.Aside from the fact the suicide is an act of cowardice - not bravery and that the terrorists who knowingly flew an aircraft full of fuel (and people) into a building with the sole purpose of killing a lot of folks who had done nothing to harm them (hmmm, lets see, we have cowardice and malicious insanity - nope, don't see no bravery there). Aside from all that, Mr. t also said "The reason that the World Trade Center got hit is because there are a lot of people living in abject poverty out there who don't have any hope for a better life." You don't see anything much wrong with that? What kind of a total idiot would equate poverty with religious fanaticism and postulate that the poverty stricken are without hope as a justification for murdering thousands?Of the statements quoted, I don't see a single one that isn't either rabidly anti-American or the obvious workings of a sick mind.

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Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis

twins

Suicide does not make one a coward, the way they died is inconsequential, their cause is their belief. They would most likely die any way that would render the most dead of those they feel should die. Those same people probably would have killed each and every individual personally, if it was feasable, but it wasn't. Killing thousands of people for your beliefs does not make one brave. Bravely insane, what the hell is that? Maybe the ones saying they are brave, are saying so because they would not die for a cause and therefore consider anyone who willing dies for their cause, to be brave. Or maybe they are saying they are brave because they feel anyone who will willing die for their cause is brave. We don't call our soldiers cowards when they die for our beliefs, do we? Don't label all people who commit suicide as cowards, it may be a permanent solution to a temporary problem or it may be a permanent solution to a terminal problem, blanket statements will never apply enough to justify using them. It may feel good to slam people with them, but they don't work.Yes, sometimes the ends does justify the means.

smokepole

I believe that the lowest private in the US Army is braver than those terrorists. That private has to, day in and day out, do a largely thankless task for low pay and often under not-that-nice conditions. He constantly lives with the thought in his mind that his country may call him to kill and die. He could do some other job, even working at a gas station, and make more money and have an easier life. But he does his job day after day after day. Those terrorists did one thing for an instant, and with the thought in their minds that it would give them ever-lasting peace and happiness--the whole 72 virgins in heaven thing. Is that brave? I don't think so. Self-serving, homicidal, idiotic--yeah, I agree with all of those. But does it equate with the long-term sacrifice and heroism of those in our armed services? I don't think so.

twins

I never said it did.

beachmaster73

I think we are equating Western Christian ideas to an Eastern Islamic philosophy. I'd recommend for anyone who wants to debate the mindset of those terrorists to read "A History of the Arab Peoples" by Albert Hourani. In their minds and in the minds of most of Islam they are heros of the first magnitude...they really couldn't care less what a bunch of infidel Christians think. They have been fighting a valient fight with Christianity as a whole for the last 900 years or so. While we can pooh pooh terrorists all we want; they are non-the-less an effective fighting force of a few people versus a large and powerful opponent. While we can express amazement and outrage at the attack on the world trade center it is very easy to understand how the Arabs want us to know and understand a tiny little bit of the pain and suffering they experience every day as a result of the West's incursion into their world.Were they brave? ...I don't know but I know they were at peace with themselves and their God when they took out those planes and the passengers on them. The expectation of everlasting life with God as a result of an heroic act is certainly a powerful incentive to perform the act.For those of you who pooh pooh suicidal acts of heroism I'd give you Captain Colin Kelly, United States Army Air Corps who dove his damaged B-17 at a Japanese cruiser early in WWII after his men had bailed out. Clearly he too could have bailed out; instead he chose what has been called one of the most heroic acts of the WWII and received the DSC for his actions. I guess it just depends on who is telling the story. In Anthony Herbert's(sp) biography "Soldier"(he was one of the most decorated American soldiers of the Korean Conflict) he relates the story of a North Korean(or Chinese) rifleman who single handedly held up an American truck and tank column for several hours as the Americans blasted away at him and then thinking he was dead attempted to move only to be surprised when the little guy started shooting at them again and again. Eventually he was killed and most of the Americans wondered what kind of crazy suicidal fanatic would do what he did. Colonel Herbert simply said that North Korean rifleman was by far the bravest man and most magnificent soldier he had ever seen.I actually think the Pentagon was a legitimate terrorist target for a terrorist attack. Personally I'd draw the line at the WTC.....but I'm not an Arab and the WTC came to symbolize to many Arabs the oppression that Christianity and Judism had inflicted on them. Destroying that symbol is sort of like our destruction of the swastica on the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin at the end of WWII....yeah we didn't kill thousands of innocent civilians to get there...we left that to the Russians... but the symbol came down anyway.Ted Turner is an arrogant rectum and when he dies I'll make a pilgramage to his gravesite to pee on his grave. I'll do the same for "Barbarella, the North Vietnamese Whore". But in this case I have to grudgingly agree with Turner that those suicide bombers were brave men fighting for their cause. My Christian values make it difficult to understand the Islamic mindset; but Mulims don't have difficulty understanding their mindset. Beach

royc38

Beach I can't say I agree with 100% of what you just said. The points are well taken but in the case of Capt Kelly, he at least let all of his men get out before he dove. In his final moments he decided that trading his life for that ship was feasible. Hiding behind women and children on a passenger plane I can't honestly compare them. Remember they are promised virgins in paradise so they are still expecting payment for services rendered. I can't in my moral makeup grant hero status to people who expect to be compensated for doing something to help the cause. I am sure Audie Murphy wasn't thinking about a fat Warner Bros. contract when he was giving the huns a lead bath in WW2. Now for the other points you made I would concur that we need to maybe look at a few things through muslim eyes so see how they view things.

Shootist3006

twins, I've got to disagree with you. (or sort of agree) I will agree that suicide does not make one a coward but only a coward chooses suicide as a 'solution'. Self-murder is never a solution, it is an end and is irreversible but it is not a solution. That said, let's talk about what these "brave" terrorists did. They went to a place (an airplane) where no one else would be armed, cut up a bunch of defenseless pilots then flew the airplane, complete with a load of innocent people into a building in order to kill even more innocent people. It was a base and cowardly act. To call these terrorists 'brave' is to besmirch every brave man that ever lived. You cannot equate an act of terrorism with an act of courage; the very nature of terrorism requires that its practitioners be cowards. In order to effect terror, terrorism requires that you attack the unsuspecting, that you attack the defenseless, that you attempt to kill women and children. All of these acts are the acts of a coward.

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Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis

beachmaster73

Shootist I rarely if ever disagree with you and certainly from our Western perspective it was a heinous crime. But many Muslims are convinced that every Christian/Jew is an enemy whose sole goal is the irradication of Islam. In that context an attack on our buildings and civilians becomes a holy crusade. That some muslim clerics denounced the attack does not convince the others that they were wrong. BeachP.S. In my library I have a signed photograph of General Paul Tibbets. That he saved potentially a million American lives does not necessarily justify in Japanese minds that he wasn't a mass murderer of civilians. He butchered thousands of innocent civilians to enable his country to achieve a victory over an evil opponent. Sounds pretty close to me to what those suicide bombers in their planes were attmpting on us. If they could somehow effect an economic collapse of the single greatest opponent of Islam they truly would share Allah's love for eternity.P.P.S. Shootist I truly respect you and do not make light of your opinion in any way whatsoever. I just think many of us in our Western civilization truly don't understand how far Islam is from accepting anything Christian or Western. Beach [This message has been edited by beachmaster73 (edited 02-13-2002).]

thebutcher

Shootist- NEWSFLASH- Poor people in the middle east don't like us for lots of reasons, including the fact that they live in abject poverty and we don't. I don't think that's a good reason to hate us. A big reason why we are disliked is because these are poor people who see us a gluttons (which we are). I find it incredible that people can't see the connection between the poverty in the middle east and central asia and the violence shown to the west.

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The definition of an "expert":An "X" is an unknown quantity and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.

Shootist3006

Butcher, there may be (and probably is) a connection between the poverty in the middle east and central asia and the violence shown to the west. There is no connection between the wealth of a very rich man and the violence inflicted on the citizens of New York. Further, poverty has nothing to do with religious fanaticism. Most of the terrorists were Saudi's, a country with one of the highest per capita incomes in the world. I find it absurd that an educated American would give credence to a belief that our prosperity somehow diminishes others. Just the opposite is true; our prosperity and riches allowed us the luxury of conducting vast amounts of research from which all mankind has been enriched and uplifted.

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Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis

Shootist3006

Beachmaster, I don't doubt the sincerity of the terrorists, their strength of conviction is plainly evident. However, strength of conviction does not justify actions abhorrent to every civilization. Just because you believe in something does not make that something right (ask the Nazi's if that is so).If Islam holds the destruction of the West and Christianity as a tenet of faith (which I doubt), then it will be necessary for us to destroy Islam. No one wants such a war, not us and not them. The difference is we have the power to win such a war and they do not.

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Quod principi placuit legis habet vigorem.Semper Fidelis

thebutcher

Shootist- I never claimed to accept their logic. I agree that our wealth in many ways enriches us. I think it also enflames others. When desperate, illogical fanatics see our wealth and look around at their poverty, it gives them more reason to board the plane.

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The definition of an "expert":An "X" is an unknown quantity and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure.