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Do concealed weapons laws make Utah safer?
Josey1
Member Posts: 9,598 ✭✭
Do concealed weapons laws make Utah safer?
Crime has dropped, but officials not sure of connection
Sun, May 19, 2002
By BOB WARD
Standard-Examiner Capitol Bureau
SALT LAKE CITY -- More than 44,000 people are permitted to carry concealed weapons in Utah.
Some say that makes everybody safer by helping cops stop bad guys. Others, however, question whether the benefits outweigh the risks.
The jury is still out on the issue.
But stories abound about concealed weapons holders who have sent would-be thieves and carjackers running by simply placing a handgun on the dashboard or pulling it from a holster.
Roland "Rocky" Raab of Ogden is one of those with a story. He has carried a gun ever since Utah liberalized its concealed-carry law in the mid-1990s. Since then, he said, he"s been targeted twice by apparent carjackers, who ran away when he displayed it.
"The police are excellent, but they can"t be there all the time," he said. "I look at it like wearing a seat belt."
Unfortunately such incidents, or non-incidents are impossible to record statistically.
Robert Wadman, Weber State criminal justice professor and former Omaha, Neb., police chief, said he will accept that most concealed-carry permittees are mature and honest people who are simply taking responsibility for their own safety.
What concerns him, he said, is the likelihood of accidents.
Most Americans buy guns to protect themselves from strangers, but far more often, the weapons end up hurting or killing someone in the family, he said.
"Six times to one, a firearm is going to be used against a family member, rather than being used to protect against an intruder," he said.
Wadman is a gun owner and Second Amendment supporter himself, but said he is still suspicious of what he calls "38-caliber manhood." He believes the government should foster better training and more responsible gun ownership.
"We kill or injure over 30,000 people with firearms in the United States, many of them suicides," he said. "That readily available firearm is part of the problem."
Researchers in other states have claimed a relationship between dropping crime rates and increasing numbers of concealed-carry permits. And, overall, crime has dropped in Utah since the mid-1990s, when the state"s concealed-carry law was liberalized to allow virtually anyone over 21 to obtain a permit.
But without any definitive research state officials aren"t willing to say whether or not the concealed-carry rules have played a role.
"A lot of officers think a person with a concealed weapon is more of a hazard than a safeguard because they don"t have an abundance of training," said Craig Dearden, former director of the Utah Department of Public Safety and currently chief of the Weber State University police department.
Tens of thousands of firearm suicides and accidental shootings occur every year, and many Americans are increasingly unnerved by the idea of ordinary people packing heat in public, he said.
"But others think if someone out there can pull a gun and make somebody think twice about committing a crime, then that"s a good thing."
While no training is required to own a firearm, a person must pass a background check in order to buy a gun from a licensed dealer, and an approved "firearms familiarity course" is required for the concealed privilege.
With such a permit, gun holders may take their guns almost anywhere except airports, courthouses and certain other government buildings.
The law, however, is vague about the substance of the concealed weapons course, Dearden said.
"I"ve heard of some concealed-carry classes lasting 35 minutes and others lasting three and a half hours."
But while some people think it"s bad public policy to grant concealed-carry permits without ensuring the permittee understands applicable law and can properly handle a firearm, others say more requirements would only complicate the system and discourage people from exercising their constitutional right to bear arms.
"I don"t think eight hours is an excessive class, but I don"t know where to draw the line and say it"s required," said Weber County Sheriff"s Lt. Doug Coleman. He teaches a detailed eight-hour concealed-carry class, which includes a session of range shooting. Still, he said, it may be "silly" to require all permit-holders to take such a class.
"People who are going to misuse firearms are going to do it with or without a concealed weapons permit," he said.
Coleman said he discourages Hollywood vigilante behavior among his pupils, and reminds them that "there are attorneys lined up 50-deep to sue" those who mess up. He said some permittees are bound to use their guns irresponsibly, but feels that"s an inherent risk of life in a free society.
About 60 percent of Coleman"s pupils are mature adults, 55 or older, whom, he said "aren"t prone to hot-headedness. These people, he said, bought guns because they feel vulnerable." Most of the remainder of his students are in their mid-30s to 50s, with "virtually none" in their 20s, he said.
Concealed weapons permittees depict themselves publicly as law-abiding Americans, and generally the statistics support that image. During the fourth quarter of 2001, the most recent quarter for which numbers are available, the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification issued 2,291 permits and revoked 40 permits.
A third of the revocations were for alcohol violations, but nearly as many arose from protective orders against the permittee. There were also five revocations for felonies and three for domestic violence. In all of 2001, 184 concealed gun permits were revoked.
Concealed-carry permittees, meanwhile, acknowledge they"re not perfect, but say they dislike being painted as "wanna-be Rambos."
There"s no typical profile for a concealed weapon carrier, but instructors say many of their pupils are business owners who often carry large amounts of money and don"t want to get ripped off. Others are crime victims, or harassed divorcees wanting some additional protection.
What most appear to share is a desire for more control over their personal or family safety. And for many older Utahns, owning a concealed weapon is a natural outgrowth of an upbringing around guns.
"When I was a boy, we had a shotgun behind the door -- loaded," said Kendall Pierce, a certified concealed-carry instructor from Ogden.
"All the neighbor kids were raised with guns. It"s just a matter of education."
Pierce acknowledges, however, that times have changed and many modern-day youths learn more about guns from television and video games than they do from their parents. The culture doesn"t promote responsible gun ownership, and that concerns him.
He doesn"t, however, see more laws as a solution -- especially laws affecting concealed weapons.
"I think it"s plenty good the way it is," he said. "For all the concealed weapons permits in Utah, there are very few accidental discharges."
http://www.standard.net/standard/news/news_story.html?sid=00020518231034966759
"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Crime has dropped, but officials not sure of connection
Sun, May 19, 2002
By BOB WARD
Standard-Examiner Capitol Bureau
SALT LAKE CITY -- More than 44,000 people are permitted to carry concealed weapons in Utah.
Some say that makes everybody safer by helping cops stop bad guys. Others, however, question whether the benefits outweigh the risks.
The jury is still out on the issue.
But stories abound about concealed weapons holders who have sent would-be thieves and carjackers running by simply placing a handgun on the dashboard or pulling it from a holster.
Roland "Rocky" Raab of Ogden is one of those with a story. He has carried a gun ever since Utah liberalized its concealed-carry law in the mid-1990s. Since then, he said, he"s been targeted twice by apparent carjackers, who ran away when he displayed it.
"The police are excellent, but they can"t be there all the time," he said. "I look at it like wearing a seat belt."
Unfortunately such incidents, or non-incidents are impossible to record statistically.
Robert Wadman, Weber State criminal justice professor and former Omaha, Neb., police chief, said he will accept that most concealed-carry permittees are mature and honest people who are simply taking responsibility for their own safety.
What concerns him, he said, is the likelihood of accidents.
Most Americans buy guns to protect themselves from strangers, but far more often, the weapons end up hurting or killing someone in the family, he said.
"Six times to one, a firearm is going to be used against a family member, rather than being used to protect against an intruder," he said.
Wadman is a gun owner and Second Amendment supporter himself, but said he is still suspicious of what he calls "38-caliber manhood." He believes the government should foster better training and more responsible gun ownership.
"We kill or injure over 30,000 people with firearms in the United States, many of them suicides," he said. "That readily available firearm is part of the problem."
Researchers in other states have claimed a relationship between dropping crime rates and increasing numbers of concealed-carry permits. And, overall, crime has dropped in Utah since the mid-1990s, when the state"s concealed-carry law was liberalized to allow virtually anyone over 21 to obtain a permit.
But without any definitive research state officials aren"t willing to say whether or not the concealed-carry rules have played a role.
"A lot of officers think a person with a concealed weapon is more of a hazard than a safeguard because they don"t have an abundance of training," said Craig Dearden, former director of the Utah Department of Public Safety and currently chief of the Weber State University police department.
Tens of thousands of firearm suicides and accidental shootings occur every year, and many Americans are increasingly unnerved by the idea of ordinary people packing heat in public, he said.
"But others think if someone out there can pull a gun and make somebody think twice about committing a crime, then that"s a good thing."
While no training is required to own a firearm, a person must pass a background check in order to buy a gun from a licensed dealer, and an approved "firearms familiarity course" is required for the concealed privilege.
With such a permit, gun holders may take their guns almost anywhere except airports, courthouses and certain other government buildings.
The law, however, is vague about the substance of the concealed weapons course, Dearden said.
"I"ve heard of some concealed-carry classes lasting 35 minutes and others lasting three and a half hours."
But while some people think it"s bad public policy to grant concealed-carry permits without ensuring the permittee understands applicable law and can properly handle a firearm, others say more requirements would only complicate the system and discourage people from exercising their constitutional right to bear arms.
"I don"t think eight hours is an excessive class, but I don"t know where to draw the line and say it"s required," said Weber County Sheriff"s Lt. Doug Coleman. He teaches a detailed eight-hour concealed-carry class, which includes a session of range shooting. Still, he said, it may be "silly" to require all permit-holders to take such a class.
"People who are going to misuse firearms are going to do it with or without a concealed weapons permit," he said.
Coleman said he discourages Hollywood vigilante behavior among his pupils, and reminds them that "there are attorneys lined up 50-deep to sue" those who mess up. He said some permittees are bound to use their guns irresponsibly, but feels that"s an inherent risk of life in a free society.
About 60 percent of Coleman"s pupils are mature adults, 55 or older, whom, he said "aren"t prone to hot-headedness. These people, he said, bought guns because they feel vulnerable." Most of the remainder of his students are in their mid-30s to 50s, with "virtually none" in their 20s, he said.
Concealed weapons permittees depict themselves publicly as law-abiding Americans, and generally the statistics support that image. During the fourth quarter of 2001, the most recent quarter for which numbers are available, the Utah Bureau of Criminal Identification issued 2,291 permits and revoked 40 permits.
A third of the revocations were for alcohol violations, but nearly as many arose from protective orders against the permittee. There were also five revocations for felonies and three for domestic violence. In all of 2001, 184 concealed gun permits were revoked.
Concealed-carry permittees, meanwhile, acknowledge they"re not perfect, but say they dislike being painted as "wanna-be Rambos."
There"s no typical profile for a concealed weapon carrier, but instructors say many of their pupils are business owners who often carry large amounts of money and don"t want to get ripped off. Others are crime victims, or harassed divorcees wanting some additional protection.
What most appear to share is a desire for more control over their personal or family safety. And for many older Utahns, owning a concealed weapon is a natural outgrowth of an upbringing around guns.
"When I was a boy, we had a shotgun behind the door -- loaded," said Kendall Pierce, a certified concealed-carry instructor from Ogden.
"All the neighbor kids were raised with guns. It"s just a matter of education."
Pierce acknowledges, however, that times have changed and many modern-day youths learn more about guns from television and video games than they do from their parents. The culture doesn"t promote responsible gun ownership, and that concerns him.
He doesn"t, however, see more laws as a solution -- especially laws affecting concealed weapons.
"I think it"s plenty good the way it is," he said. "For all the concealed weapons permits in Utah, there are very few accidental discharges."
http://www.standard.net/standard/news/news_story.html?sid=00020518231034966759
"If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege." - Arkansas Supreme Court, 1878
Comments
It should be noted here, Utah State Law requires an applicant "demonstrate the ability to safely handle and discharge a firearm." This is a mandatory requirement of an CWP Instructor's course being approved by the State of Utah. All applicants for a permit must do this! Instructors are not required to teach the applicant "markmanship," but they strongly encourage the applicant and cover the basics.
There is always a difference of opinion regarding "How much training is enough?" The real question is "Enough for who?" With the obvious Exemplary Record of the Permit Holders, it appears it is hard for someone to complain or to point out shortcomings they could attribute to the Permit Training, or the lack of such Training. I believe every person who gets a permit realizes their own personal need for additional training. At least that is this Instructor's opinion. I stress to each of my students the reason to be as competent as they can possibly be. After all, they may get only one chance to prove how good they really are!
If You Can't Buy a Pair, Get a Spare!
If we start having more terrorism on our soil it's time to stop asking permission to exercise our rights.
P.S. No offense SuperMonkey
SSG idsman75, U.S. ARMY
Edited by - idsman75 on 05/20/2002 23:22:21
"A liscensed person should be allowed to carry anywhere- if there is a dought- then he/she should not carry at all!"